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2nd Amend. Litigation Updates & Legal Discussion Discuss California 2A related litigation and legal topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #1841  
Old 01-22-2020, 6:02 PM
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You never know. They may uphold Benitez’s ruling in a quick turnaround. Vacationing on the moon is more likely, but there is a small chance and they might expect it to go en banc anyway.
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  #1842  
Old 01-22-2020, 6:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Robotron2k84 View Post
You never know. They may uphold Benitez’s ruling in a quick turnaround. Vacationing on the moon is more likely, but there is a small chance and they might expect it to go en banc anyway.
With the current makeup of the ninth wouldn't that be playing with fire if they let it go en banc? Think of the possibilities, the en banc panel is made up of conservatives and rules in our favor. If it's made up of commies and rules against us, the case gets appealed, Trump gets re-elected, Ruth dies, another conservative is appointed to the Supreme Court. The case finally makes it to the SC and we win and commie heads explode.

Thoughts?
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  #1843  
Old 01-22-2020, 6:59 PM
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More complexity:

Colorado Supreme Court and the State Courts of Vermont are also opining on the issue of LCM. Depending on who comes first things may get SCOTUS-y very quickly.
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  #1844  
Old 01-22-2020, 7:39 PM
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Worman is already at SCOTUS and deals with LCMs, so when that gets disposed, however that happens - based on NYSRPA, the ninth may not have a choice in what to do.
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  #1845  
Old 01-22-2020, 11:16 PM
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Originally Posted by BryMan92 View Post
More complexity:

Colorado Supreme Court and the State Courts of Vermont are also opining on the issue of LCM. Depending on who comes first things may get SCOTUS-y very quickly.
those are both State law constitutional claims so those cases end at the state supreme court level either way.
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  #1846  
Old 01-22-2020, 11:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Robotron2k84 View Post
Worman is already at SCOTUS and deals with LCMs, so when that gets disposed, however that happens - based on NYSRPA, the ninth may not have a choice in what to do.
Not have a choice? It's the ninth and gun rights we are talking about. They will just make up some tortured logic and rule against us.

When has the ninth ever allowed a gun rights case to go our way?
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  #1847  
Old 01-23-2020, 12:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Uncivil Engineer View Post
When has the ninth ever allowed a gun rights case to go our way?
Not a fair question. When was the last time the 9th was at parity and heard a 2A case?
Never?

The 9th has shifted dramatically back toward the center under Trump
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  #1848  
Old 01-23-2020, 1:09 AM
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When was the last time the 9th was at parity and heard a 2A case?
Never?

The 9th has shifted dramatically back toward the center under Trump
There are currently 16 active justices appointed by Clinton and Obama vs 13 active justices appointed by Bush II and Trump.
Of the senior justices, there are 11 from Nixon, the Bush's and Reagan and 9 from Carter and Clinton.

It's as close to even as it's ever been since most of us have been alive.
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  #1849  
Old 01-23-2020, 9:07 AM
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So the next hearing is the first week of April. Wow, almost exactly 1 year since the stay. Gotta love how fast our judicial system works. I understand how the calendar can fill up with cases and there are not enough judges for all the cases, but there should be a way for us to get through all of this faster. Not just this case, but any case challenging a current law.

Now not that I know anything about the law like some folks here, but think about it. The people that wrote and passed the law, know what they did and why they did it. The people that oppose it, have their reasons. There should be no need for months of time to prepare briefs for the court. The documents should already be drafted when the create the law. If it gets challenged, the judge should simply say, get your stuff together and be here tomorrow. The documents should have a page limit. The judge reads the documents, asks questions if he has any, then rules. Done. Same Day. It should all be like small claims court or traffic court. If you lose and want to appeal, then great, the next set of judges are available tomorrow.

I know, wishful thinking.

Last edited by NorthBay Shooter; 01-23-2020 at 9:11 AM..
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  #1850  
Old 01-23-2020, 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by wolfwood View Post
those are both State law constitutional claims so those cases end at the state supreme court level either way.
If we assume that the rulings are antithetical to the 2A, would SCOTUS have the option to review if the claims are brought up in Federal courts? Is that not what happened in Cateano?
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  #1851  
Old 01-23-2020, 5:51 PM
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A case must raise US Constitutional issues to be appealed from state SC to SCOTUS. IIRC both cases only challenge state law on state constitutional grounds. SCOTUS got involved in Caetano because Mass. law didn’t acknowledge a stun gun as arms, and therefore made a judgement based on their law and understanding of arms from their constitution and traditions. SCOTUS reversed the decision after interpreting arms to include electronic weapons, thereby extending 2A protections over such weapons and forcing Mass. to take notice.

Can a case introduce a 2A argument mid-stream? The lawyers on the board would have to answer that one. My understanding is no, but if both sides ended up agreeing in arguments that magazines are arms, well, then you might have a situation to appeal beyond state SC.
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  #1852  
Old 01-23-2020, 6:50 PM
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I sure am enjoying the slew of Freedom Week normal capacity magazines I purchased. I hope I get to continue to do so after all this legal dust settles.
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  #1853  
Old 01-23-2020, 7:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BryMan92 View Post
If we assume that the rulings are antithetical to the 2A, would SCOTUS have the option to review if the claims are brought up in Federal courts? Is that not what happened in Cateano?
the Supreme Court can review a state supreme court decision. In Cateano the litigant brought a challenge under the U.S. Constitution that the electric arm ban violated the Second Amendment.

In the Vermont and CO cases the claims are under their respective state constitutions so that is why the claims end with their state supreme courts.
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  #1854  
Old 01-25-2020, 2:25 PM
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I sure am enjoying the slew of Freedom Week normal capacity magazines I purchased. I hope I get to continue to do so after all this legal dust settles.
It will be a while before all of the legal dust settles. My hope is for the injunction to kept in place while all of the legal dust is settling.
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  #1855  
Old 01-25-2020, 2:45 PM
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Meanwhile, out at the range, civilian and off-duty leos are busy blasting away at targets and nobody seems to be concerned about whether Joe shot 9 rounds or 14 before performing a mag change....
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  #1856  
Old 01-26-2020, 5:44 PM
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Meanwhile, out at the range, civilian and off-duty leos are busy blasting away at targets and nobody seems to be concerned about whether Joe shot 9 rounds or 14 before performing a mag change....
I went to the range the Saturday before Christmas and used my freedom week magazines. Only thing someone said was "Very nice!" when I loaded the standard capacity magazine for them to try my weapon.

I told them it was purchased during freedom week and they were happy. No drama.

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  #1857  
Old 01-26-2020, 5:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robotron2k84 View Post
You never know. They may uphold Benitez’s ruling in a quick turnaround. Vacationing on the moon is more likely, but there is a small chance and they might expect it to go en banc anyway.
Shouldn't really despair like this until we know who the assigned judges are. we just need two judges on the 3 judge panel to be in our favor.
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  #1858  
Old 01-26-2020, 6:11 PM
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Shouldn't really despair like this until we know who the assigned judges are. we just need two judges on the 3 judge panel to be in our favor.
Then it goes en banc at it doesn't matter
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  #1859  
Old 01-26-2020, 8:04 PM
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Then it goes en banc at it doesn't matter
the 9th is almost 50/50, en banc is no longer a sure thing
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  #1860  
Old 01-26-2020, 8:09 PM
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Originally Posted by kuug View Post
the 9th is almost 50/50, en banc is no longer a sure thing
That's why we have to keep America great. Maybe we can get to 55/45 or maybe even 60/40

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  #1861  
Old 01-26-2020, 10:00 PM
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That's why we have to keep America great. Maybe we can get to 55/45 or maybe even 60/40
Sua Sponte only requires one justice to make the request.
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  #1862  
Old 01-28-2020, 12:13 PM
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Originally Posted by kuug View Post
the 9th is almost 50/50, en banc is no longer a sure thing
It's 13/16 split, if I remember correctly? Still a little bit far away from 50/50, but much better than it was back in 2016

Last edited by riderr; 01-28-2020 at 12:21 PM..
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  #1863  
Old 01-28-2020, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by kuug View Post
Shouldn't really despair like this until we know who the assigned judges are. we just need two judges on the 3 judge panel to be in our favor.
Even knowing who the judges are doesn't make anything a sure thing.

I forget which case it was, but a liberal LGBTQ activist judge from New York City ruled in our favor in the 9th recently, despite 100% of the Calguns community thinking the opposite would happen.

Edit: I remember now, it was this case - when Becerra appealed the PI.
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Last edited by cockedandglocked; 01-28-2020 at 12:25 PM..
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  #1864  
Old 01-28-2020, 3:51 PM
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Originally Posted by cockedandglocked View Post
Even knowing who the judges are doesn't make anything a sure thing.

I forget which case it was, but a liberal LGBTQ activist judge from New York City ruled in our favor in the 9th recently, despite 100% of the Calguns community thinking the opposite would happen.

Edit: I remember now, it was this case - when Becerra appealed the PI.
The judge agreed on keeping the injunction in place, FYI.

Sort of an aside, Trump nominated (and had seated) one openly gay Justice and van Dyke (who also did pistol competitions and lamented his SCAR was only semi, IIRC) who did pro bono work for LGBTQ causes. The notion that this somehow impacts them seems less relevant than judicial philosophy/nominating president.
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  #1865  
Old 01-28-2020, 9:32 PM
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The judge agreed on keeping the injunction in place, FYI.
No, Batts (the NYC lesbian judge) and Smith affirmed that the PI remain in place.

Wallace dissented. He is a Nixon appointee and almost certainly not lesbian.

Anyways, my point is that you can't always judge a book by its cover. Speculation is fun and all, but really nobody knows what will happen until it happens.
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Last edited by cockedandglocked; 01-28-2020 at 9:45 PM..
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  #1866  
Old 01-28-2020, 10:33 PM
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Originally Posted by cockedandglocked View Post
No, Batts (the NYC lesbian judge) and Smith affirmed that the PI remain in place.

Wallace dissented. He is a Nixon appointee and almost certainly not lesbian.
Yes, I think that is what I said? I was referring to Bates.

Last edited by BryMan92; 01-28-2020 at 10:38 PM..
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  #1867  
Old 01-29-2020, 8:14 AM
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Yes, I think that is what I said? I was referring to Bates.
Whoops, you totally did say that, my bad!
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