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The Appleseed Project The Revolutionary War Veterans Association |
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Appleseed Riflemen: What's your ideal Appleseed rifle?
Last weekend I attended my first Appleseed and had an amazing time. The guns, the training, the history, the stories, the people, the message... just awesome.
To pay tribute and honor the riflemen of old, my goal was to earn my patch using a basic gun with iron sights. Now that I've accomplished that, I'm starting to think about what gun to try with next. I'm especially excited to earn a patch at an actual distance (sorry forgot the term) test held at other ranges that support it. To make a long story short, my question is this: Appleseed Riflemen, ignore ammo costs and spare no expense... what do you consider to be your ideal rifle for scoring your best on an Appleseed AQT?
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"This nation will remain the land of the free only so long as it is the home of the brave." - Elmer Davis Last edited by BigJ; 11-26-2013 at 7:34 AM.. |
#2
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If you're shooting a KD event (Known Distance), .22 LR isn't going to make it. We shoot out to 400 meters. Just about any centerfire will, though.
The rifle needs to fit you very well. It needs to have precise click-adjustable sights, and it needs to be reliable enough to get through timed stages. After that it's all personal choice. Out of my personal battery, the easiest KD rifle is definitely this one: My eyesight is marginal on Stage 4, and this fighting optic is specifically designed to engage D-targets (or their equivalent) at various ranges... However, the BEST rifle for a KD AQT -- and I believe we have consensus among the many Rifleman on this one -- is here:
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Riflemen Needed. Ask me about Appleseed! Send a PM or see me in the Appleseed subforum. |
#3
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"Known distance", that's the phrase I was looking for. Thanks!
The Garand is a must, no doubt. I don't currently own one, but that will change after I attend one of the CMP AMC's... in about a year. Too long to wait before attending a KD event Can you give me a bit more detail on that build of yours? Looks impressive! Thanks for the info.
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"This nation will remain the land of the free only so long as it is the home of the brave." - Elmer Davis Last edited by BigJ; 11-26-2013 at 8:42 AM.. |
#4
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Build details:
Very old Eagle Arms EA-15. 16" 1:9 twist HBAR, fluted, chrome-lined barrel, bolt, and NATO-spec chamber. Carbine-length action and buffer. Fixed A2 stock. A2 birdcage flash hider. Aluminum free-float tube. I've had this for decades and have made a few repairs and changes over the years. Rebuilt onto a stripped YHM upper. Replaced GI trigger with Giessele SSA. YHM railed gas block with bayonet lug. Irons are GG&G, MAD in back. Optic is ACOG TA-33GH on a LaRue mount. Bayonet lug has a cheapo CAA rail adapter and a Streamlight TLR-1, which of course are no use at all on an AQT. I've wrapped the free-float tube with paracord, and -- of course -- use an M1 GI sling. With this setup I'm good for 2.5 MOA with M193 ammo, unsupported, any day of the year. I'm sure few reading would consider this an ideal setup, but I've had this rifle forever, even put so many rounds through it that I wore out the stock trigger. I've shot it in rain, snow, blowing sand, at night. It just plain runs.
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Riflemen Needed. Ask me about Appleseed! Send a PM or see me in the Appleseed subforum. |
#5
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BigJ it was a pleasure meeting you and yours last weekend.
KD Rifleman does not require anything special, just a reliable centerfire rifle with adjustable sights and equipped with a quality sling. The above having been said: The M1 Garand is an excellent choice (as is the M1A), but the 1903 Springfield works great too. The AR15 or AR10 platform both work great, especially with a freefloated handguard. Reading this post seems to indicate we prefer semi auto rifles, but I think a bolt action rifle will generally be capable of more accuracy than the semi auto rifles can deliver, thus opening the discussion to many choices of bolt action platforms. If I were to purchase just one multipurpose rifle which were capable of performing at an Appleseed KD event I would choose: AR15 (.223) if I am recoil sensitive or of small stature. M1 or M1A (30-06/308 Winchester) if I like wood and steel rifles. A box fed bolt action (308 Winchester, 260 Remington) if I am willing to become proficient with smooth bolt manipulation. Beware the man with one rifle, he probably knows how to use it.
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#6
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as_rocketman: Thanks for the details. Very nice and helpful.
Rock6.3: thank you!! The pleasure is all mine. You were a highlight for all of us, especially Bryan. He talked about the event, and meeting/talking with you in particular the whole ride home, and you were the first he spoke of when telling his dad all about our weekend. I don't think we discussed it, but I am particularly fond of wood and steel and bolt actions even more so. I've shot many surplus bolt guns over the years, and have recently fallen head over heels in love with the Swiss K31. My concern there (and maybe you wouldn't mind commenting?) is the sling arrangement; the Swiss never taught or learned how to use a sling, and so one was on their rifles only for transport (often as they rode their bicycles). Its a side mount both front and rear, and in the rear the hardware actually ends up digging directly into my cheek, so I need to remove it all together. Any thoughts on how to adapt a K31 for Appleseed KD purposes, or is it just simply a mis fit all together? The other thing I'm trying to weigh is my eyesight and how to work with it. I have a condition that basically results in seeing two images of one target offset and overlapping eachother. Its manageable with bigger targets since the two are easy to separate, but on those small targets its nearly impossible, and I really struggled with it this past weekend. With the right scope, I can adjust it such that the problem is minimized, resulting in much more comfortable and enjoyable shooting. Thoughts?
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"This nation will remain the land of the free only so long as it is the home of the brave." - Elmer Davis |
#7
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If your vision is causing difficulty with being able to see the smaller targets then you can expect that situation to continue at a KD (aka full distance) Appleseed Event. Our full distance target at 400 yards appears identical in size to the bottom row target on the 25 meter AQT.
Thus I would strongly recommend that your centerfire rifle selection criteria include the ability to accept a scope mount which is placed sufficiently forward enough to permit a full turkey neck in prone based on your body. (our shoulders are all different widths and our necks are all different lengths. A scope which cannot be mounted in the proper position is at best an irritation and can also result in scope eye)
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#8
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LOL^^ love the avatar!!
Ok roger that on the scope placement. Given my proportions and size, it sounds like maybe even a scout setup might work to my benefit. Interesting... Thanks again Rock.
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"This nation will remain the land of the free only so long as it is the home of the brave." - Elmer Davis |
#9
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Since you did specify spare no expense:
AR Platform: I would like one of these someday, in 28 or 30 inch, w/side charging handle: http://6mmar.com/6mmAR_Turbo.html Note: in the AR platform I need a stock extension to keep my nose from going forward of the charging handle Note 2: Proper scope placement on an AR will frequently require a cantilever scope mount, I choose the LaRue SPR-E http://www.laruetactical.com/larue-t...l-spr-e-lt-139 Gissele Trigger: I use http://geissele.com/super-dynamic-combat-trigger.html For my bolt action dream rifle: A BAT action 260 Remington or 6BRX 30" Kreiger barrel MCS-T5A stock For any platform: Les Tam custom leather sling (amazing product, great guy to work with and WORTH THE WAIT) http://www.lestam.com/ 1.25" QD sling swivels Quality optics (this is not where you attempt to go cheap)
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Last edited by Rock6.3; 11-26-2013 at 11:20 AM.. |
#10
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Quote:
I'm with Rock, if you want walnut & steel, bolt-action, and optics there's no way to get an "ideal" rifle for KD duty without some customization. But there are a few factory options that come pretty close.
Having said that, if you're going to step beyond the cost and power level of 5.56, you have many more options, such as R700s and Savages and Win 70s modified to take box magazines and in whatever barrel contour you wish. Or even just a nice huntin' rifle in, say, .243. A suitable hunting piece will destroy an AQT if you run it right. I once shot an AQT (normal, but KD would be easier still) with my .270 (BAR II Safari semiauto) and apart from keeping it loaded, it was a snap. --- No milsurps on my list. They don't take optics well. There are ways to do it, but all of them involve compromises, such as irreversible modification. If you decide to go with irons then milsurps become quite doable. And here it comes down to which has the best sights.
But those two are about it. Any other bolt milsurp can work but will be more frustrating than it needs to be, usually because of sights. For instance, I prefer the M1917 to the M1903, and I've shot mine on KD AQTs, but getting the sights right is an ordeal. I had no trouble with the time limits or the group size, but my groups weren't centered on the target... so while it's a great rifle, it is not ideal for AQTs. If you were willing to modify a milsurp with better irons, adding a click-adjustable rear peep, then a whole lot of others become viable. The M1917, for one, but also things like the MAS-36 or the Enfield Mk III. One of our instructors has a new .30-40 Krag that he's itching to shoot on KD AQT's. Ideal? No. But with correct hold-overs, it will get the job done. This is one thing that attracted me to Appleseed in the first place -- the "exam" really is a practical shooting exercise, and by that I mean you can do it well with a wide variety of equipment. It isn't like most match shooting where you're inevitably funneled into one choice or another. What matters the most is how a rifle works with you. --- Which is why my "best" remains the AR-15 linked above. I'm in your camp, I too like walnut and steel. That AR-15 is the only rifle I own that isn't black and tan, and it's not my favorite (that would be the Garand, followed by the M1 Carbine). However, it is the rifle I am most effective with, and that commands respect for its design even if it's ugly and makes awful noises. It is the one rifle I would grab in an unknown situation, either to defend my family or my community. In that sense it is very much the 21st century embodiment of the militiaman's musket, and why it will forever have the seat of honor in my safe.
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Riflemen Needed. Ask me about Appleseed! Send a PM or see me in the Appleseed subforum. |
#11
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Great post rocketman, thank you very much for taking the time.
I have had an AR or two over the years; I'd shoot them VERY well, but then they'd sit in the safe and collect dust. There's just something...missing... so when you said: Quote:
Thank you again. You (both) have really helped!
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"This nation will remain the land of the free only so long as it is the home of the brave." - Elmer Davis |
#13
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My favorite is my M21 (super match M1a with adjustable comb stock). It's heavy (about 19 lbs w/scope), but I think that's a good thing as it reduces movement. I scored a 225 KD (acoring 96 of 100 on stage 4 - 400 yds) with procedural mistakes affecting 2-stages
My next favorite is my AR with a White Oak upper (20" heavy barrel) - again, a "heavy" rifle |
#14
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BigJ-It was nice to meet you at the appleseed. As for a KD rifle i plan to shoot KD with my newly build AR15 in .223, and long term i hope to get a M1 Garand and shoot KD with that. For ideal rifle i think the M1 is ideal for skill test, but an AR15 would be way easier to shoot KD with.
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