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  #1  
Old 03-26-2020, 8:56 AM
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Default C&R Question

Apologies if this has already been addressed, but I can't seem to find an answer.

Is there a cutoff date for items considered C&R? My understanding is that in order to be a C&R rifle, shotgun, pistol, etc, it needs to be at least 50 years old. So items made pre-1970 are now C&R, but in 5 years, that date will be pre-1975. Is my interpretation correct?

I'm on the hunt for a Makarov, may want to just try gunbroker. If shipping to my FFL from out of state, can an item's age be proved by running a serial number against an old soviet-era production range database?

Thanks. -quad
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Old 03-26-2020, 9:04 AM
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There are two ways for something to be a C&R

1) - If it's 50+ years old
2) - If it's listed by the ATF as a C&R

For example: All CZ-82's are considered C&R's, even though they were made in the 1980's. All Soviet military Makarovs are C&R's (but not commercial ones, not Bulgarian). East German Makarovs are also all C&R's

A Russian military Dragunov (but not the commercial Tigr or NDM86) is actually a C&R, listed by the ATF
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Old 03-26-2020, 9:36 AM
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FYI, here is the ATF C&R list, it specifically mentions Russian and East German Makarovs

https://www.atf.gov/file/128116/download
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Old 03-26-2020, 11:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quadmx301 View Post
Apologies if this has already been addressed, but I can't seem to find an answer.

Is there a cutoff date for items considered C&R? My understanding is that in order to be a C&R rifle, shotgun, pistol, etc, it needs to be at least 50 years old. So items made pre-1970 are now C&R, but in 5 years, that date will be pre-1975. Is my interpretation correct?

I'm on the hunt for a Makarov, may want to just try gunbroker. If shipping to my FFL from out of state, can an item's age be proved by running a serial number against an old soviet-era production range database?

Thanks. -quad
At least 50 years old is correct. So today, a gun is C&R if it were made on or prior to March 26, 1970.

The gun can be demonstrated to be C&R by checking a list of serial numbers by date.

Shipping and your ffl's receiving and DROS charges may blow your mind, given the relatively low prices on Maks.

Good luck.
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Old 03-26-2020, 11:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimja View Post
FYI, here is the ATF C&R list, it specifically mentions Russian and East German Makarovs

https://www.atf.gov/file/128116/download
Correct.. Except that does not include the Russian commercial "Makarov" types such as the "Bikal" models or any of the "IJ70" types. They are strictly commercial and NOT C&R's. Even though many refer to them as "Makarovs"

Both Russian and East German military Makarovs will have the year they were made stamped (Russian) or engraved (East German) on their frames.

But since they are specifically listed as "C&R's" they are exempt from the age requirement
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Last edited by SVT-40; 03-26-2020 at 11:42 AM..
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Old 03-26-2020, 11:30 AM
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Also the firearms must be complete. No barreled actions or receivers.

Also "sporterized" versions of military rifles are not C&R's specifically based on date of original manufacture. Or based on models being listed as C&R's

Many are listed as the examples below

"Mexican Model 1954 bolt action Mauser rifles and carbines, cal. .30-06 (original military
configuration only)"

Yugoslavian M1948 (M48) bolt-action rifles, cal. 7.92 x 57mm, produced at the Kragujevac
Arsenal, original military configuration only.


All original military bolt action and semiautomatic rifles mfd. between 1899 and 1946
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Old 03-26-2020, 12:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimja View Post
There are two ways for something to be a C&R

1) - If it's 50+ years old
2) - If it's listed by the ATF as a C&R

For example: All CZ-82's are considered C&R's, even though they were made in the 1980's. All Soviet military Makarovs are C&R's (but not commercial ones, not Bulgarian). East German Makarovs are also all C&R's

A Russian military Dragunov (but not the commercial Tigr or NDM86) is actually a C&R, listed by the ATF
If I remember correctly, that is where the name comes from.
Listed = curio
Old = relic
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Old 03-26-2020, 9:58 PM
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The ATF has stopped publishing a hardcopy book, the online version is:
https://www.atf.gov/file/128116/download

Per the ATF, there are 3 ways for a firearm to be classed as Curio & Relic.
(1) Firearms manufactured at least 50 years prior the current date, but not including replicas thereof;
(2) Firearms certified by the curator of a municipal, State, or Federal museum which exhibits firearms to be curios or relics of museum interest; and
(3) Firearms which derive a substantial part of their monetary value from the fact that they are novel, rare, or bizarre or from the fact of their association with some historical figure, period, or event.

Numbers 1 and 2 are pretty straight forward but number 3 confuses me.
What is 'novel' or 'rare', are commeratives or 1 of xx considered C&R even if they were manufactured less than 50 years ago.
There are some that are on the list, but what about others that are similar commemoratives but are not specifically published on the list.

The pistol used by John Dillinger would surly qualify (assuming it happened in 1984, not 1934), but would the pistol that my second cousin's neighbor used to put down the neighborhood near riot be?
BTW, it was part of the town history and made the papers.
That was an attempt at humor but does point to an ambiguity, how historical of an event does it have to be to qualify as C&R?
Who makes the call and are there formal rules and what about the right of appeal if you don't agree with an adverse ruling?

Last edited by CalifEd; 03-26-2020 at 10:11 PM..
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Old 03-26-2020, 10:31 PM
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The ATF Technology Branch makes the decision whether or not to add a firearm to the curio list under (2) or (3) in your post above. I once submitted a request to get the CZ 75 Cold War edition added. They denied the request on the grounds that there was insufficient evidence that the Cold War model had superior financial value compared to a standard CZ75.
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Old 03-27-2020, 7:50 AM
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Default 50 years old

All good answers; anything built before 1970 is a C&R. I have found that sellers often put the burden of proof that it was built before 1970 on me. One tip is, that serial numbers were required on anything built after 1968, so no SN, no problem.
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Old 03-27-2020, 8:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lodicollector View Post
All good answers; anything built before 1970 is a C&R. I have found that sellers often put the burden of proof that it was built before 1970 on me. One tip is, that serial numbers were required on anything built after 1968, so no SN, no problem.
Only "Original" as issues military rifles shotguns built before 1970.. Not "all".

"All" would apply to regular commercial models, which are complete rifles, shotguns and pistols.

No bare frames, receivers or barreled actions.
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What you believe and what is true in real life in the real world aren't necessarily the same thing. And what you believe doesn't change what is true in real life in the real world.
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