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  #161  
Old 10-12-2017, 4:33 PM
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  #162  
Old 10-12-2017, 4:35 PM
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  #163  
Old 10-12-2017, 4:46 PM
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Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
Personally, I suspect he could have harmed more people without it.
With well-aimed, precise shooting?
Probably.
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  #164  
Old 10-12-2017, 6:50 PM
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Originally Posted by audiophil2 View Post
I'm just going to make this simple. If you are in favor of banning the slidefire you are anti 2A. Plain as that. No way to explain yourself out if it.
Example of a false dichotomy:

All animals are either mammals or fish

My pet parrot is not a mammal

Therefore my pet parrot is a fish
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  #165  
Old 10-12-2017, 8:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Lex Talionis View Post
Example of a false dichotomy:

All animals are either mammals or fish

My pet pet parrot is not a mammal

Therefore my pet parrot is a fish

The above is not a false dichotomy. It is a factual error.
Your first statement is factually incorrect therefore the rest of your statements are also incorrect. You gave a good example of leftist logic though. I wonder how you came about that thought process.

Here is the non leftist reasoning:
All animals are either vertebrates or invertebrates.
My pet parrot has a spinal column.
Therefore my pet parrot is a vertebrate.

See how someone with facts makes a statement similar to yours actually true? What that old computer programming saying? GIGO. Garbage in. Garbage out. I think I learned that in 6th grade when I was programming in basic on TRS-80's.

Like a typical leftist you stated something that to an uneducated person might sound like the truth but failed miserably when presented to a non sheeple. If oyu think I am wrong explain why in your own words instead of trying to appear smart.
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  #166  
Old 10-12-2017, 10:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Lex Talionis View Post
Example of a false dichotomy:

All animals are either mammals or fish

My pet parrot is not a mammal

Therefore my pet parrot is a fish
False since the first statement is false.

If you believe the 2nd Amendment says what it says and yet you accept that some infringement is acceptable because you don't care about that item, then when others don't care about your item, don't complain when it is banned and don't complain when others say that you really don't believe in the meaning of the 2nd Amendment.

Personally, I think that the bump stocks are a complete and total waste of money and ammo and I don't see any point to them. I have shot full-auto many times and it is fun, although a bit of a waste of ammo, but then again I was not paying for the ammo. If I were to live in a free state and had the money, I would buy a full-auto firearm, but I would never buy a bump stock and yet I still would not support banning them.
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  #167  
Old 10-12-2017, 10:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Lex Talionis View Post
Example of a false dichotomy:

All animals are either mammals or fish

My pet parrot is not a mammal

Therefore my pet parrot is a fish
Spoken like a true leftist.
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  #168  
Old 10-12-2017, 11:06 PM
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Originally Posted by audiophil2 View Post
The above is not a false dichotomy. It is a factual error.
.
Ummm... The example he used is one of the classic examples of a false dichotomy.

http://www.philosophy-index.com/logi...se-dilemma.php
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  #169  
Old 10-13-2017, 12:00 AM
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Cool your jets Phil.
The amount of contempt you're expressing for community members & fellow gun owners is unnecessary.
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  #170  
Old 10-13-2017, 12:41 AM
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this thread gives me a headache
when they came out they were considered range toys (although most controlled ranges don't like rapid fire) and generally a waste of ammo. fun, but still a inaccurate waste of ammo. now all of a sudden they are the most important thing in the world..... if you against them you a leftist gun grabber (even though the stocks are not firearms).....i don't support congressional action however, if the ATF wants to reclassify them as MG's i dont really care. that's their right and they can do it any time they wast. classifications are not set in stone and they can change anytime the ATF wants to change them (shouldering pistol braces).
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  #171  
Old 10-13-2017, 1:00 AM
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Originally Posted by audiophil2 View Post
Like a typical leftist you stated something that to an uneducated person might sound like the truth but failed miserably when presented to a non sheeple. If oyu think I am wrong explain why in your own words instead of trying to appear smart.
Thank you for proving my point. On the basis that I do not see any possible 'common use' argument which could ever be made for bump stocks--- that must mean I'm a "leftist"????? LOL!

Congratulations! You are the first person to have called me a leftist in my long right wing life!

I hate to break it to you, but bump stocks FAIL the test of firearm definition. Unlike magazines, bullets, barrels, triggers, etc.. all integral parts of a 'firearm' as designed to operate. A bump stock if banned DOES NOT render a rifle unusable and therefore no 2nd amendment infringement would occur. Banning someone from a bump stock does not mean a AR-15 would not fulfill it's use. And BTW, most gun owners--- civilian, LE and military, would argue a bump stock renders a firearm to be LESS usable, not more. A bump stock isn't even within the common or practical use domain of a pistol grip---- there exists NO intelligent use for a bump stock.

You want to argue about overreaching language in the proposed bill then fine, that is a valid complaint. But my point all along has always been that I am not going to see the sky falling over a device which is ridiculous in the first place. And I see no tactical political advantage in looking silly defending these toys.
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  #172  
Old 10-13-2017, 8:21 AM
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Originally Posted by audiophil2 View Post
I'm just going to make this simple. If you are in favor of banning the slidefire you are anti 2A. Plain as that. No way to explain yourself out if it. There is no excuse and there is no non-emotional tear jerker reason to ban it.

In 1986 the firearm owners protection act was proposed because the ATF was harrassing FFLs and baiting gun owners into committing crimes they were not understanding. Senator John Hughes snuck in a machine gun ban at the last minute into the bill. Hughes did this because HE DID NOT WANT THE FOPA TO PASS. HE WANTED TO CONTINUE ARRESTING GUN OWNERS AND HARRASSING FFLS. By adding the machine gun ban into the bill he hedged his bets so when it illegally passed he lost his easy ability to arrest people but he and the biggest destroyer of the 2A, POS POTUS Reagan, banned all new machine guns for civilians. There are about 180,000 legally transferable machine guns now. If we did not have FOPA there would easily be closer to 1 million since the $200 tax has deflated in cost since 1934. The tax is about $13,000 in today's value. A selectfire AR15 costs about $50-150 more to make that a similar semi auto version.

Your ability to use the best technology to fight your government as DEMANDED by the 2A was torn from you (well, free state gun owners).

The slidefire was created not as a gimmick or as a toy. It was created as the only legal means of regaining the 2A right that was stolen from US citizens. It is the closest and cheapest way for average Americans to once again have pseudo automatic rifles. It is far from perfect but look at what CA gun owners do in order to comply with law and still own guns capable of fighting tyranny.

The slidefire is a legal work around just like bullet buttons, grip wraps, single shot exemptions, etc. CA gun owners advocate and beg for smart people to make workarounds so guns can still be purchased. Without legal workarounds to Ca law you will not be getting semi automatic today. You will eventually have a law banning featureless guns. It is not a question of if but when and it will happen soon. When all semi auto rifles are banned in Ca guess what is next. Don;t think it can't happen? Ask anyone that lived in Chicago, Oak Park, IL, Highland Park, IL Cook COunty, IL since the 70's how many legal semi auto rifles and handguns they own.

Why are so many California gun owners so willing to allow anything gun related to be banned? Why do they think that because they have no use for it or cannot legally own it that no one should?

There are no grey areas when it comes to guns. The leftists and the masters that want guns banned want all guns banned. They do not pick and choose. They ban 1 at a time until they are all gone. Gun owners should be the exact opposite of gun grabbers. Fight every proposed ban as if your life depended on it because one day your life or your kids life or your grandkids life will depend on it.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firear...Protection_Act

On board with it.. and it's already been proven that once banning certain items or accessories, the Jenga tower will fall, to their hopes. Not just 2 years ago a semi auto ban was on Brown's desk! The bill no doubt was unconstitutional, but after every shooting tragedy, the antis up the ante. We can't give that inch, ever, or we're doomed to the same fates as Europe's and Australia's gun laws.
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  #173  
Old 10-13-2017, 10:17 AM
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Cool your jets Phil.
The amount of contempt you're expressing for community members & fellow gun owners is unnecessary.
He's right. All the arguments for banning the bump stock by our community members & fellow gun owners are the same arguments the anti gun people use against semi autos, magazines that hold more than 10 rounds, sound suppressors, etc...

Semi auto & 10+ mags are just a waste of ammo, all they're good for are range toys, ban them all
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  #174  
Old 10-13-2017, 11:04 AM
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This thread has taken a long and tortuous road to get from the OP to here.

This bickering, about such a small part of our firearms hobby/sport (bump-fire), is indicative of the reason why we have been so vulnerable to the erosion of our 2A rights in general . . . . . . we are not unified.
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  #175  
Old 10-13-2017, 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted by onelonehorseman View Post
This thread has taken a long and tortuous road to get from the OP to here.

This bickering, about such a small part of our firearms hobby/sport (bump-fire), is indicative of the reason why we have been so vulnerable to the erosion of our 2A rights in general . . . . . . we are not unified.
Because for some odd reason a small contingent of people here somehow see bump fire as some mythical high water mark of our 2nd amendment rights is the problem. In addition they are now willing to attack the NRA and fellow gun rights people over POSSIBLE new bump stocks regulations. Personally I'm glad to see this as a way to separate the chaff from the grain. Pro NRA folks like us continuing to be the grain.
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  #176  
Old 10-13-2017, 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by onelonehorseman View Post
This thread has taken a long and tortuous road to get from the OP to here.

This bickering, about such a small part of our firearms hobby/sport (bump-fire), is indicative of the reason why we have been so vulnerable to the erosion of our 2A rights in general . . . . . . we are not unified.
Nope we are not unified at all. Firearms are a right not just a hobby/sport, everything is a small part of that right to the guy that only cares that he has his HiPoint C9 and even smaller to the guy that only cares that he has his phone and a policeman down the road. When are they going to come after your small part?
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  #177  
Old 10-13-2017, 12:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Schutzman View Post
On board with it.. and it's already been proven that once banning certain items or accessories, the Jenga tower will fall, to their hopes. Not just 2 years ago a semi auto ban was on Brown's desk! The bill no doubt was unconstitutional, but after every shooting tragedy, the antis up the ante. We can't give that inch, ever, or we're doomed to the same fates as Europe's and Australia's gun laws.
The gun-grabbers' strategy:

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  #178  
Old 10-13-2017, 3:51 PM
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So what is the difference between installing a bump fire stock on a semi-automatic rifle or taking a file to the disconnector of a semi-automatic rifle so the hammer is no longer captured during the firing pulse and keeps on firing until the magazine is exhausted?

Should common steel files be banned?
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  #179  
Old 10-13-2017, 5:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Californio View Post
So what is the difference between installing a bump fire stock on a semi-automatic rifle or taking a file to the disconnector of a semi-automatic rifle so the hammer is no longer captured during the firing pulse and keeps on firing until the magazine is exhausted?

Should common steel files be banned?
The difference is that using a file and modifying the firearm to be full-auto is illegal under Federal law, as well as CA law, whereas the bump stock is a part which does not change the function of the firearm and is legal under Federal law.
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  #180  
Old 10-13-2017, 5:41 PM
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Criminals that commit violent crimes don't follow LAWS, so a law against bump stocks will do nothing to prevent violent crime, a criminal with a file can create the same firing patterns and probably the same amount of stoppages.


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The difference is that using a file and modifying the firearm to be full-auto is illegal under Federal law, as well as CA law, whereas the bump stock is a part which does not change the function of the firearm and is legal under Federal law.
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  #181  
Old 10-13-2017, 5:59 PM
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Criminals that commit violent crimes don't follow LAWS, so a law against bump stocks will do nothing to prevent violent crime, a criminal with a file can create the same firing patterns and probably the same amount of stoppages.
Quite true, but that is a different issue. I don't agree with banning items.

I suspect a full auto would be more effective than a bump stock.
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  #182  
Old 10-13-2017, 6:59 PM
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I suspect a full auto would be more effective than a bump stock.
You only "suspect" that?
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  #183  
Old 10-13-2017, 7:30 PM
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What part of "shall not be infringed" isn't clear to everyone?

The banning/restricting nonsense is proven not to work, where citizens rights are not infringed crime is dramatically less.
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  #184  
Old 10-14-2017, 7:15 AM
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You only "suspect" that?
Why do you want to ban bumpfiring?
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  #185  
Old 10-14-2017, 7:16 AM
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this thread gives me a headache
when they came out they were considered range toys (although most controlled ranges don't like rapid fire) and generally a waste of ammo. fun, but still a inaccurate waste of ammo. now all of a sudden they are the most important thing in the world..... if you against them you a leftist gun grabber (even though the stocks are not firearms).....i don't support congressional action however, if the ATF wants to reclassify them as MG's i dont really care. that's their right and they can do it any time they wast. classifications are not set in stone and they can change anytime the ATF wants to change them (shouldering pistol braces).
Why do you support the bumpfire ban?
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  #186  
Old 10-14-2017, 10:33 AM
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Why do you want to ban bumpfiring?
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Originally Posted by major burnout View Post
Why do you support the bumpfire ban?
Probably the same reasons as the people that wanted the ban on ARs, Aks and magazine over 10 rounds.
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  #187  
Old 10-14-2017, 11:02 AM
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Why do you want to ban bumpfiring?
I never said I wanted banning, all I've said is I'm not going to be passionate to either defend bump fire OR include bump fire within a list of viable and important accessories to a rifle platform we do defend.

I believe defending bump fire as if it is comparable to standard cap mags, detachable mags, suppressors, etc is foolish and makes our position on the important matters weakened.... all over basically a "toy". I also don't believe that more regulation on slide fire stocks or even potential banning of them will be a domino effect to other items and mainly because the NRA (who some are now throwing under the bus) are smart enough to draw the correct line in the sand.
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  #188  
Old 10-15-2017, 7:01 AM
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I never said I wanted banning, all I've said is I'm not going to be passionate to either defend bump fire OR include bump fire within a list of viable and important accessories to a rifle platform we do defend.

I believe defending bump fire as if it is comparable to standard cap mags, detachable mags, suppressors, etc is foolish and makes our position on the important matters weakened.... all over basically a "toy". I also don't believe that more regulation on slide fire stocks or even potential banning of them will be a domino effect to other items and mainly because the NRA (who some are now throwing under the bus) are smart enough to draw the correct line in the sand.
Im talking about bumpfiring not the bumpfire stock. You dont need a bumpfire device to shoot your gun really fast. Would you grow a pair, stand up and protect your fellow countrymen from a ban on shooting their guns fast?

Happy you are going to stand behind that line in the sand.
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  #189  
Old 10-15-2017, 7:07 AM
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Probably the same reasons as the people that wanted the ban on ARs, Aks and magazine over 10 rounds.
The poor guy doesnt know much about firearms. Once he is educated he will be pro 2A.
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  #190  
Old 10-15-2017, 11:39 AM
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Im talking about bumpfiring not the bumpfire stock. You dont need a bumpfire device to shoot your gun really fast. Would you grow a pair, stand up and protect your fellow countrymen from a ban on shooting their guns fast?
Bumpfiring without a device/stock while being galacticly stupid and immature imho--- as in, how if anyone who pulled that kind of crap on a military or LE range would quickly have their azzz re-positioned as a hat-- is not what I was talking about. I was talking about with a device. My suspicion is that either new regulations or new legal definitions will likely occur to deal with increasing rate of fire by use of a "device". A finger is not a device; however that being said, a belt loop or a rubber band may end up being a "device" if you think about it.

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Happy you are going to stand behind that line in the sand.
I do stand with NRA if that is what you mean by that. Even when I disagree with the NRA I always stand with them.... the NRA is me, it is us.
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  #191  
Old 10-15-2017, 2:24 PM
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Liberals, anti gunners, and even some Repugnicans are losing their minds over bump stocks. That's reason enough for me to want to keep them legal. NOT ONE MORE DAMN INCH!

WOLVERINES!!!
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Old 10-15-2017, 2:33 PM
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Originally Posted by L84CABO View Post
Liberals, anti gunners, and even some Repugnicans are losing their minds over bump stocks. That's reason enough for me to want to keep them legal. NOT ONE MORE DAMN INCH!

WOLVERINES!!!
That is a good reason, but also a good reason is that there is no good reason to ban it. It won't make a positive change, won't make people safer, nothing.
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Old 10-16-2017, 11:22 AM
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Liberals, anti gunners, and even some Repugnicans are losing their minds over bump stocks. That's reason enough for me to want to keep them legal. NOT ONE MORE DAMN INCH!

WOLVERINES!!!
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Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
That is a good reason, but also a good reason is that there is no good reason to ban it. It won't make a positive change, won't make people safer, nothing.
All true.
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Old 10-16-2017, 9:15 PM
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Then you are diametrically opposed to every individual who thinks that there should even be such a thing as individual thought.

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it."

Thomas Jefferson, to Archibald Stuart, 1791

Or put another way:

"I hope it never comes to a choice, but, if necessary, any American worthy of the name would prefer to live in a lawless anarchy rather than in a tyrannical police state."

Jeff Cooper, Cooper on Handguns, 1974

To state the obvious, you are the exact embodiment of what you profess to despise, which is another leftist trait alongside a yearning for the government to to oppress people for their own good. You want what you want and to hell with everybody else.
M. Orange, thank you for saying exactly what needs to be said.

On a related note, this speaks of those who move from CA to the free states. No matter how ardent one thinks they are as advocate for liberty, the fact is they've been inculcated to the nature of this state such to the point they usually are unaware of being perceived as a leftist in their new state. The 'cure' is to lay low for the first few years, even a decade.
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Old 10-17-2017, 4:49 AM
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Bumpfiring without a device/stock while being galacticly stupid and immature imho--- as in, how if anyone who pulled that kind of crap on a military or LE range would quickly have their azzz re-positioned as a hat-- is not what I was talking about. I was talking about with a device. My suspicion is that either new regulations or new legal definitions will likely occur to deal with increasing rate of fire by use of a "device". A finger is not a device; however that being said, a belt loop or a rubber band may end up being a "device" if you think about it.



I do stand with NRA if that is what you mean by that. Even when I disagree with the NRA I always stand with them.... the NRA is me, it is us.

So if the wildly stupid and immature people who write our laws lumped bumpstocks in with 2lbs triggers you would stand and fight?


The NRA is us, bullet buttons and 10rnd mags.
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Old 10-17-2017, 12:42 PM
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Bump stocks are stupid, is what I keep hearing. It's a waste of ammo I read on here. By design, is it not meant to "recreate" the capabilities of a select fire rifle?? Does that in turn make a full auto rifle stupid? Is it not wasting ammo while shooting full auto? So banning full auto rifles is an infringement but not an accessory that will legally (for now) get you similar results to a select fire rifle?
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Old 10-17-2017, 1:34 PM
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So if the wildly stupid and immature people who write our laws lumped bumpstocks in with 2lbs triggers you would stand and fight?
Absolutely that would be 100% a fight to stand for. But we need to be the adults in the room capable of explaining to the uniformed law makers--- including Republicans who know nothing about firearms, where to draw lines and distinctions AND then get the wording in the law correct if the intention of a law/regulation is actually to be about the spirit of the law behind the NFA. Aftermarket triggers are also devices, however with legitimate uses which for the most part are about accuracy and not rate of fire. We need to explain to our Republican and Democrat congressmen who still want "A" NRA ratings what that means.
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Old 10-26-2017, 4:46 PM
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Your arrogance and self-righteousness are breathtaking. I suspect you know absolutely nothing about tyranny. Every time I read a screed like this I wonder if the author looks for trouble rather than trying to avoid it.

If I had to provide a single reason why the government has become more intrusive, it's because stupid people (not pointing the finger at any one in particular) think they can do whatever they want, whenever they want, however they want and screw everyone else. Believe me I hate rules and regulations as much as anyone, and there are lots I'd love to do away with, but I'd rather grumble about a few too many rules than live with chaos.

[/rant off
Spoken like a true CUCK
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Old 10-26-2017, 5:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Lex Talionis View Post
Thank you for proving my point. On the basis that I do not see any possible 'common use' argument which could ever be made for bump stocks--- that must mean I'm a "leftist"????? LOL!

Congratulations! You are the first person to have called me a leftist in my long right wing life!

I hate to break it to you, but bump stocks FAIL the test of firearm definition. Unlike magazines, bullets, barrels, triggers, etc.. all integral parts of a 'firearm' as designed to operate. A bump stock if banned DOES NOT render a rifle unusable and therefore no 2nd amendment infringement would occur. Banning someone from a bump stock does not mean a AR-15 would not fulfill it's use. And BTW, most gun owners--- civilian, LE and military, would argue a bump stock renders a firearm to be LESS usable, not more. A bump stock isn't even within the common or practical use domain of a pistol grip---- there exists NO intelligent use for a bump stock.

You want to argue about overreaching language in the proposed bill then fine, that is a valid complaint. But my point all along has always been that I am not going to see the sky falling over a device which is ridiculous in the first place. And I see no tactical political advantage in looking silly defending these toys.
I never called you a leftist. I stated you make a comment similar to what a leftist would make. False information presented in the form of a false truth.

I never stated the bump stock is protected by the 2A. I said that if you think the bump stock should be banned then you are anti-2A. There is a difference and I explained in the OP why the bump stock is the loophole to a full auto we should have full unrestricted access to.

Seems that over the past few weeks the bumpstock is being defended by ATF and legislators as a part that makes no sense to ban.

So far all the controversy has done is show who is willing to sell gun owners out.
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Old 10-26-2017, 5:16 PM
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Originally Posted by onelonehorseman View Post
This thread has taken a long and tortuous road to get from the OP to here.

This bickering, about such a small part of our firearms hobby/sport (bump-fire), is indicative of the reason why we have been so vulnerable to the erosion of our 2A rights in general . . . . . . we are not unified.
Exactly. I do not want to make sides or point fingers. I want whoever reads my OP to actually think about their position. They do not have to agree but hopefully they will take the time to learn about the 34nfa, 68gca, and 86fopa.
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