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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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Old 04-11-2010, 10:26 AM
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Default Legality of an FFL Building AR Pistols?

I have a specific question about an AR Pistol build but can't seem to find the answer in any of my searches. If answering the question, please assume that all parameters for getting the stripped lower into California and those relating to the configuration of the AR pistol have been according to law. In other words, the lower was never built into a rifle, it was transferred into CA as "other" on the Federal forms, it has not yet been DROSed in CA. It will be configured into a legal single shot configuration, etc...

My question pertains only to the legality of its construction and subsequent sale and is as follows:

Is it legal in California for a California FFL, (not a manufacturer), to buy a stripped AR lower receiver, assemble it into a CA legal single shot pistol, DROS it as a pistol and sell/transfer it to a CA resident that has no exemptions to the roster?


I don't want to open this up as another thread about building them and where/how to get lowers, and what has to be stamped on them and all that stuff. There are a bunch of threads out there on that already.
Thanks.
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Last edited by tiki; 04-11-2010 at 10:28 AM..
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Old 04-11-2010, 10:55 AM
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No.

Even something as simple as adding a bullet button and installing a single shot sled is considered "manufacturing" and requires an 07FFL.
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Old 04-11-2010, 12:30 PM
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Ok, that's what I thought.
But, how is that different from an FFL, (not a manufacturer), purchasing a stripped lower receiver, pinning the magazine release with a bullet button, installing a parts kit, adding an upper receiver and stock and selling that as a rifle to a CA resident?
In both cases, the stripped lower receiver enters the state as not a long gun and not a pistol, as far as the Feds are concerned. Then the FFL configures it and sells it to an individual, identifying the final configuration on the DROS form. I must be missing something.
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Old 04-11-2010, 12:34 PM
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There is no difference. Both are considered manufacturing and require the FFL to have an 07.
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Old 04-11-2010, 12:37 PM
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As far as I know, an 07FFL would be required for that as well.

A gunsmith (or any Joe) can take YOUR parts and assemble them... and doesn't even need to have an FFL if you are present with the receiver at all times.

Keep in mind that the 07FFL (manufacturer) does not require a full factory and regular production such as JD Machine.
Many storefront operations such as Riflegear, CWS, and Enterprise hold an 07.
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Originally Posted by dantodd View Post
A just government will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just government. If a small minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people, the RKBA of the whole is our insurance against their success.
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Old 04-11-2010, 12:48 PM
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So, then it sounds like the only way for an FFL, (not a manufacturer), to sell a CA resident a firearm, (rifle or pistol), that was assembled from a stripped lower and the remaining parts, is

1) Through a private party transfer
2) Purchased from out of state as long as said firearm enters CA in the proper legal configuration
3) By obtaining the stripped lower receiver and ensuring that the eventual purchaser of the firearm is at least present while said firearm is being assembled prior to filling out the DROS form, regardless of who is assembling said firearm.

Have I missed anything?
Thanks.
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Old 04-11-2010, 12:53 PM
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Can you give us a specific scenario?
Seems like you are looking for something in particular... there are simply too many "what if" possibilities. Your 3 examples are certainly not the only way.

Example... Turner's does not have an 07FFL, but they sell completed AR pattern rifles.
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A just government will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just government. If a small minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people, the RKBA of the whole is our insurance against their success.
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Old 04-11-2010, 1:02 PM
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unless he's building it in his spare time for personal use.
(i just had to)
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Old 04-11-2010, 1:08 PM
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Sure. The specific scenario is as follows: An FFL, (not a manufacturer), buys a stripped receiver and the parts to assemble it into a firearm. Once assembled, that firearm is placed in the store for sale.

I didn't think this was legal, and, the initial replies to my question indicated that I was correct. I was having a discussion with a friend of mine who is an FFL, and he stated that other FFLs were selling such firearms. I stated that in order to do that, the FFL would need an 07FFL. Before I go back and say that I was right, which it sounds like I am, I want to make sure that I am right. Everything from the responses indicated that I was correct until you tossed in Turner's. So, what is it about Turner's (I don't know anything about them), that enables them to sell firearms assembled from stripped lowers and parts, that doesn't require them to possess a manufacturers license?
Thanks.
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Old 04-11-2010, 1:14 PM
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Turners is receiving them either from the manufacturer, or from a middleman 07FFL (could be either inside or outside of California) that is doing the assembly.

But if the shop does not have an 07, a stripped receiver logged into the shop must be logged out of the shop as an "other" (stripped receiver) and DROS'd as a "Long Gun".
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dantodd View Post
A just government will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just government. If a small minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people, the RKBA of the whole is our insurance against their success.
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Old 04-11-2010, 1:17 PM
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Ok, that makes sense. Thanks.
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Old 04-11-2010, 1:21 PM
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Ok, that makes sense. That sounds like #2 from my list...

Quote:
1) Through a private party transfer
2) Purchased from out of state as long as said firearm enters CA in the proper legal configuration
3) By obtaining the stripped lower receiver and ensuring that the eventual purchaser of the firearm is at least present while said firearm is being assembled prior to filling out the DROS form, regardless of who is assembling said firearm.
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Old 04-11-2010, 1:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tiki View Post
Ok, that makes sense. That sounds like #2 from my list...
Ya... #2 would be correct if you remove the "out of state" part.

Any FFL can buy stock from anyone that offers stock, whether they are inside or outside of California.
The difference is that unless the FFL is an 07, what comes in the door is what has to go out the door.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dantodd View Post
A just government will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just government. If a small minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people, the RKBA of the whole is our insurance against their success.
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Old 04-11-2010, 1:35 PM
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To recap:

1) Through a private party transfer
2) Purchased complete from out of state a supplier as long as said firearm enters CA is in the proper legal configuration
3) By obtaining the stripped lower receiver and ensuring that the eventual purchaser of the firearm is at least present while said firearm is being assembled after completion of prior to filling out the DROS form and the 10 day waiting period, regardless of who is assembling said firearm.


The non-07 cannot make ANY changes to a gun while it is logged to the shop. If it comes in stripped, it leaves stripped.
That means DROS + 10 day wait.
Once the buyer signs for it, it is his, and at that point, he can bring it back to the shop for gunsmith work, and if the shop has an FFL, he can leave it overnight.


Edit: Just re-read the thread title and noticed that you are referring to pistols.

To obtain/build an AR pistol, ya... it's a bit more strict.
All of the above except #3 would still apply... The main issue is the roster. The pistol MUST be transferred in roster-exempt form.

1 - PPT/FTF, or Intrafamilial transfer is good to go
2 - Same thing... the FFL can buy it from a supplier in roster-exempt form (single shot sled, barrel over 6", OAL 10.5" or more), and in turn sell it in roster exempt form.

3 - That one is a problem for pistols. The FFL must be an 07 to do any assembly prior to DROS. The stripped lower cannot be DROS'd as a "handgun" since it is not roster-exempt when it is only a stripped lower.

There is no legal path for the FFL to which you are referring to assemble a legal AR pistol from a stripped lower.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dantodd View Post
A just government will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just government. If a small minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people, the RKBA of the whole is our insurance against their success.
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Old 04-11-2010, 1:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cokebottle View Post
Ya... #2 would be correct if you remove the "out of state" part.

Any FFL can buy stock from anyone that offers stock, whether they are inside or outside of California.
The difference is that unless the FFL is an 07, what comes in the door is what has to go out the door.

Gotcha. I just wanted to be very clear because I am forwarding this to someone else and I want to make sure that I have it correct.
Thank you.
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