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  #1  
Old 04-02-2012, 8:48 PM
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Default "Bullet button" question and restrictions

I have read the flowchart and the OLL law handbook provided in this
forum, but I am still puzzled by recent developments. Is it now true
that you cannot have a "bullet button" incorporated into a pistol grip?
Meaning that if you unscrew and detach the pistol grip, thereby
rendering your firearm sans a pistol grip and therefore, all other
considerations being legal, a non AW, then it is STILL illegal? I am
confused by this. I know this issue has something to do with a
type of bullet button for the AR with a detachable pistol grip. But
the details of this are unclear to me.

In my case I have designed a "magazine latch blocker" for a
Thompson Semi-auto that requires that the pistol grip be unscrewed
before the "blocker" can be removed and thereby allow the latch to
be moved to release the magazine. At this point the magazine, while
a 30 round body, has been permanently altered into a 10 round (9 round
truth be told) magazine so that is not an issue. It was my thinking that
once I removed the pistol grip with a tool (it is NOT a quick release
mechanism for the pistol grip) that it could not be an AW at that point.
So where have I gone wrong in my thinking?

Dove
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  #2  
Old 04-04-2012, 5:09 PM
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No takers huh? Come on guys, somebodies gotta know out there.
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  #3  
Old 04-04-2012, 5:41 PM
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Not sure about that but here's a bump for you haha. I know that you can go without the BB with a featureless rifle, but I don't know how it applies to just the removal of the pistol grip. Might depend on whether or not you have a collapsible stock.
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  #4  
Old 04-04-2012, 6:15 PM
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The law is simple
Any semi automatic centerfire rifle capable of accepting a detachable magazine. Can not have one evil feature.
Pistol grip, Forward pistol grip, Flash supressor, Folding/Collapsable stock, Thumbhole stock, Grenade, flare launcher.
So all of the above features would have to be removed from the rifle for it to not be an Illegal un registered Assault weapon.

If there has been a change to the law I'm not aware of it. And I would think it would be big news around here.
As far as i know the fixed magazine criteria has not changed.
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  #5  
Old 04-04-2012, 6:19 PM
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^These evil features can still be present if the magazine is able to be removed only through specific use of a tool. I don't really know about the rules for featureless rifles, but i'd assume you have to have the flash suppressor pinned or welded too. Again, not sure about if it's a collapsible stock and you just remove the pistol grip though.

Edit: just read your post again and I missed that you included detachable magazine.

Last edited by adrenalinejunkie; 04-04-2012 at 6:22 PM..
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  #6  
Old 04-04-2012, 6:24 PM
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You are changing the state of your weapon between featureless and magazine locked when you do this. That is very odd and will be very hard to explain it to a police officer...

As long as you don't have any other features removing the pistol grip (completely) would make your build at that moment is a featureless.

At that point you can have use of your magazine latch.

As I understand it your blocker could be moved out of the way at that point. And release actuated.

When you screw the pistol grip and blocker back on you again have a magazine locked weapon.

If my above observations are correct you seem to be legal. But you are defiantly in untested waters.

Is there no way that you can design your blocker to have a hole in it that a tool can be inserted and the magazine catch be actuated more like common magazine lock designs?


For reference:
A Featureless Rifle Can Not Have Any of the Following:
Pistol Grip.
Thumbhole stock.
Folding or telescoping stock.
Grenade launcher or flare launcher.
Flash suppressor. (Might be an issue)
Forward pistol grip. (Might be an issue if you have the gangster style)
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Last edited by Chaos47; 04-04-2012 at 6:28 PM..
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  #7  
Old 04-04-2012, 6:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adrenalinejunkie View Post
^These evil features can still be present if the magazine is able to be removed only through specific use of a tool. I don't really know about the rules for featureless rifles, but i'd assume you have to have the flash suppressor pinned or welded too. Again, not sure about if it's a collapsible stock and you just remove the pistol grip though.

Edit: just read your post again and I missed that you included detachable magazine.
Pinning the flash hider does nothing. It's still there and still illegal on a rifle with the mag lock removed.

You only need to pin the flash hider on a barrel that is under 16" so that the combined length is over 16"
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  #8  
Old 04-04-2012, 6:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kcstott View Post
Pinning the flash hider does nothing. It's still there and still illegal on a rifle with the mag lock removed.

You only need to pin the flash hider on a barrel that is under 16" so that the combined length is over 16"
Ah got it thanks for the clarification.
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  #9  
Old 04-04-2012, 9:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos47 View Post
You are changing the state of your weapon between featureless and magazine locked when you do this. That is very odd and will be very hard to explain it to a police officer...

As long as you don't have any other features removing the pistol grip (completely) would make your build at that moment is a featureless.

At that point you can have use of your magazine latch.

As I understand it your blocker could be moved out of the way at that point. And release actuated.

When you screw the pistol grip and blocker back on you again have a magazine locked weapon.

If my above observations are correct you seem to be legal. But you are defiantly in untested waters.

Is there no way that you can design your blocker to have a hole in it that a tool can be inserted and the magazine catch be actuated more like common magazine lock designs?


Yeah, it seems legal to me too AND defiantly in untested waters. I agree and
I didn't want the controversy. But I also remember reading something about "quick detach" pistol grips and now that I think about it, I don't remember them using a tool. But in the case of my pistol grip, I have to use
a tool to take it off already.

As it stands the blocker is just too simple for a hole to allow release. I have other designs on paper, but those would require working around the pistol
grip bolt or putting a very ugly (i.e. noticeable) device on the outside of the
pistol grip to achieve what you propose. I was hoping for something far more
elegant.

[Quote=kcstott;] The law is simple
Any semi automatic centerfire rifle capable of accepting a detachable magazine. Can not have one evil feature.
Pistol grip, Forward pistol grip, Flash supressor, Folding/Collapsable stock, Thumbhole stock, Grenade, flare launcher.
So all of the above features would have to be removed from the rifle for it to not be an Illegal un registered Assault weapon.

If there has been a change to the law I'm not aware of it. And I would think it would be big news around here.
As far as i know the fixed magazine criteria has not changed. [quote/]
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As to the "detachable magazine" issue, yes I definitely somehow caused a little confusion by writing "detachable pistol grip". The magazine would NOT be detachable except by removing the blocker and only then by removing the pistol grip---with a tool (screw driver). Hence, I am hoping,
this fits the legal definition of NOT being detachable.

Dove

Last edited by jmdove; 04-04-2012 at 10:01 PM..
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  #10  
Old 04-04-2012, 9:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adrenalinejunkie View Post
^These evil features can still be present if the magazine is able to be removed only through specific use of a tool. I don't really know about the rules for featureless rifles, but i'd assume you have to have the flash suppressor pinned or welded too. Again, not sure about if it's a collapsible stock and you just remove the pistol grip though.

Edit: just read your post again and I missed that you included detachable magazine.
Fortunately the Thompson doesn't have a flash suppressor. Only the Cutt's Compensator which was specifically designed to mitigate upward movement
of the muzzle on the Thompson due to recoil. (It tends to go right and high).
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  #11  
Old 04-04-2012, 10:26 PM
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Why don't you just go featureless by using a kydex pistol grip wrap?
(My guess would be looks)
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  #12  
Old 04-05-2012, 9:22 AM
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Well I did go featureless by basically having a little wood nub that did not go
past the trigger guard more than a quarter inch. The trouble with this, besides
the fact that it doesn't look good, is that it makes the gun unstable. You see
it turns out that the rear pistol grip really is a necessary item for the Thompson
in order to shoot it correctly.

Tried it without it and it felt like the gun was far out there like I was extending it
out along with my arms. It wasn't pleasant to shoot--although it wasn't awful
either. But with the pistol grip, at least for me, the difference is night and day.
It's weird really, that a pistol grip can make such a difference.

Dove
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  #13  
Old 04-05-2012, 9:53 AM
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Lets try and keep the terms from being used ambiguously. The workaround with a bb hinges on the difference between a detachable mag or a fixed mag. A tool is only needed for the purposes of establishing a fixed magazine.

IF you have a fixed mag (requires a tool to remove) then you can have evil features, but not more than 10 rd mags. IF the mag is detachable , then you cannot have ANY evil features, but can use any legally owned mag regardless of capacity.

So the only question is, with your pistol grip installed is your mag fixed or detachable? Once the pistol grip is removed, (assuming no other evil features) then it doesn't matter what the mag status is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmdove View Post
Yeah, it seems legal to me too AND defiantly in untested waters. I agree and
I didn't want the controversy. But I also remember reading something about "quick detach" pistol grips and now that I think about it, I don't remember them using a tool. But in the case of my pistol grip, I have to use
a tool to take it off already.

As to the "detachable magazine" issue, yes I definitely somehow caused a little confusion by writing "detachable pistol grip". The magazine would NOT be detachable except by removing the blocker and only then by removing the pistol grip---with a tool (screw driver). Hence, I am hoping,
this fits the legal definition of NOT being detachable.

Dove
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  #14  
Old 04-05-2012, 1:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sleighter View Post
Lets try and keep the terms from being used ambiguously. The workaround with a bb hinges on the difference between a detachable mag or a fixed mag. A tool is only needed for the purposes of establishing a fixed magazine.

IF you have a fixed mag (requires a tool to remove) then you can have evil features, but not more than 10 rd mags. IF the mag is detachable , then you cannot have ANY evil features, but can use any legally owned mag regardless of capacity.

So the only question is, with your pistol grip installed is your mag fixed or detachable? Once the pistol grip is removed, (assuming no other evil features) then it doesn't matter what the mag status is.
With the blocker installed it is most definitely fixed. The blocker is
situated between the trigger frame and the pistol grip and cannot be
removed even by pulling on it with pliers because the grip bolt completely
prevents that. The blocker provides a physical barrier to the upward movement
of the magazine latch. Hence the magazine cannot be removed.

But I don't see that as an issue, I was already familiar with the rules and
that is why I designed the blocker. I am fairly sure that it meets the conditions as outlined by the DOJ
guidelines. However, it is not a traditional "bullet button" which could
be problematic. And then I read a thread here on Calguns which I have not yet found again and it seemed to say that removal of the pistol grip would
still legally get you in trouble. In other words, the thinking of the people who
thought of the quick release pistol grip apparently with a bullet button type
of device, was the same as mine: If you take off the grip--evil feature gone!
But unlike their device, my grip MUST be removed with a tool---namely a
screw driver to undo the bolt.

DOVE

Last edited by jmdove; 04-06-2012 at 2:53 PM..
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Old 04-05-2012, 2:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmdove View Post
However, it is not a traditional "bullet button" which could
be problematic. And then I read a thread here on Calguns which I have not yet found again and it seemed to say that removal of the pistol grip would
still legally get you in trouble.
In other words, the thiniking of the people who
thought of the quick release pistol grip apparently with a bullet button type
of device, was the same as mine: If you take off the grip--evil feature gone!
But unlike their device, my grip MUST be removed with a tool---namely a
screw driver to undo the bolt.


DOVE
Ok, two things. I agree with the reasoning of the bolded sections. Without seeing the thread in question I am left to assume that the conclusion was, while technically sound it probably isn't legally wise. And you're right, no grip = no evil feature.
#2: the underlined section is completely irrelevant to the topic at hand. Evil features have no correlation to needing tools. The only thing that even merits mention of a tool is a fixed mag. Since the grip gets removed first, the mag question is moot. With the grip it's fixed, good to go. Without the grip, it doesn't even matter.

Now, with that said, I still think you have created a one-off situation. Law enforcement aren't paid to dispute details of law, lawyers are. So unless you're willing to get lawyers involved after your probable arrest, only you can weigh the risk. A Leo will just decide if they think it's likely a law has been broken and then will let the court settle it. Not a position I like to find myself in. The deck is stacked against you.
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Old 04-05-2012, 2:28 PM
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Oh yeah... IANAL.
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  #17  
Old 04-06-2012, 2:48 PM
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IANAL? Not sure what you are referring too. (Never mind...looked it up. For anyone else also not familiar with Abbrev.: IANAL= I am not a lawyer)

Not really worried about the arrest part, I don't live in a liberal enclave area. However, being naturally cautious, I still wouldn't go out with a controversial item to expose myself to possible arrest anyway brother. That's exactly why I am vetting it here on Calguns.

But all of this has been most instructive. I find it necessary, since your opinions definitely resonated with my own, to go with the original bullet button concept rather than the KISS idea of the blocker. However, I will keep it in mind and maybe find a way to vet it with DOJ rather than risk a legal case. Thank you gentlemen!

DOVE

Last edited by jmdove; 04-06-2012 at 9:18 PM..
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Old 04-06-2012, 3:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmdove View Post
IANAL? Not sure what you are referring too.

Not really worried about the arrest part, I don't live in a liberal enclave area. However, being naturally cautious, I still wouldn't go out with a controversial item to expose myself to possible arrest anyway brother. That's exactly why I am vetting it here on Calguns.

But all of this has been most instructive. I find it necessary, since your opinions definitely resonated with my own, to go with the original bullet button concept rather than the KISS idea of the blocker. However, I will keep it in mind and maybe find a way to vet it with DOJ rather than risk a legal case. Thank you gentlemen!

DOVE
IANAL = I Am Not A Lawyer

You're not going to get anywhere trying to "vet it with DOJ." Contacting the DOJ about these kinds of issues is dangerous since they often give out incorrect advice over the phone, that can land you in trouble if you follow. The DOJ also does not have any official guidelines for magazine locking devices (since the whole concept was created to GET AROUND the DOJ, not cooperate with them).
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Old 04-06-2012, 9:24 PM
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Well you definitely have me on that one. I know that you are right in general.
But the bullet button had to be vetted in court, the court ruling against the prosecutor. Expensive way to vet.
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Old 04-06-2012, 9:58 PM
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Here's the thing
The DOJ does not and has not made any determinations on a Bullet button device.

The legal definition is a a firearm with a fixed magazine is a firearm that requires the partial or complete disassembly of the firearm to remove the magazine or the use of a tool or tools to remove the magazine.

What parts are removed is irrelevant, how it operates is irrelevant.

Sleighter has a point though Most california LEO's have been trained to ID a bullet button rifle.
That said they have also been warned of two critical areas to pay attention to.
One: is does the mag require a tool to be removed.
and two: does the mag hold more then ten rounds.
On those two points alone any weapon can be determined to be or not an AW
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That guy is a hack. He worked on one of my ak's and now the damn thing only shoots .50 cal bullets.
The above statement i consider a term of endearment
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  #21  
Old 04-07-2012, 3:17 PM
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So...are you saying you like my blocker idea...or not? It seems to me
that if a LEO doesn't understand what you said, that I could be putting
myself at risk of arrest and an expensive vetting. But LEOs here ARE
trained to look for the bullet button.
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Old 04-07-2012, 5:16 PM
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So...are you saying you like my blocker idea...or not? It seems to me
that if a LEO doesn't understand what you said, that I could be putting
myself at risk of arrest and an expensive vetting. But LEOs here ARE
trained to look for the bullet button.
They are trained to look for a bullet button and are also trained to determine if the rifle is in fact a assault weapon by features. As they do not want to make false or incorrect charges and get the Dept sued over a mistake

Personally I would not be worried
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Dick.

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Originally Posted by tujungatoes View Post
That guy is a hack. He worked on one of my ak's and now the damn thing only shoots .50 cal bullets.
The above statement i consider a term of endearment
Need prints for your build? Need reference materials for Gunsmithing projects, Click Here
I fear that even though as tough as life has been for me I have only begun to pay for my sins.
Don't forget to have your Liberals spayed or neutered !

Last edited by kcstott; 04-07-2012 at 5:35 PM..
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Old 04-08-2012, 8:23 PM
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The truth is that there is a lot of grey in the legal system and navigating it daily is all determined by your level of comfort level with risk. We can help you do a risk analysis. But we can't decide for you what you are personally comfortable with.
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Old 04-08-2012, 9:04 PM
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The truth is that there is a lot of grey in the legal system and navigating it daily is all determined by your level of comfort level with risk. We can help you do a risk analysis. But we can't decide for you what you are personally comfortable with.
Exactly. Well said Sir.

and even if it's black and white legal doesn't mean you will not get questioned.
How you react to the questioning is just as important as the answers you give.
Think about the questions the Border patrol asks. They really don't care where you are going or where you came from. They want to see if you get nervous or can't answer the question with a reasonable answer. That tells them you may have something to hide. It's also this level of nervousness that allows a search with probable cause. Would a reasonable person act this way to a few simple questions??
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Dick.

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That guy is a hack. He worked on one of my ak's and now the damn thing only shoots .50 cal bullets.
The above statement i consider a term of endearment
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