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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #161  
Old 10-18-2017, 8:46 PM
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What did you all put for Model: Type: Materials: and Additional identification Marks on your 1008 form?

I can't find anything about cost of processing paperwork. Does anyone know the amount to send to CADOJ with the 1008?

Lastly, are people using the Firearms Ownership Report online form to register their home builds, then register with CA DOJ as assault weapon. I can't seem to find a definite answer. Some yes, some no.

Last edited by wireless; 10-18-2017 at 9:10 PM..
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  #162  
Old 10-18-2017, 11:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Discogodfather View Post
I think it is clear cut and dry. SB880 isn't the problem, it's AB857. It clearly says:

This bill would, commencing July 1, 2018, and subject to exceptions, require a person who manufactures or assembles a firearm to first apply to the department for a unique serial number or other identifying mark, as provided. The bill would, by January 1, 2019, and subject to exceptions, require any person who, as of July 1, 2018, owns a firearm that does not bear a serial number to likewise apply to the department for a unique serial number or other mark of identification.

Any person who owns a firearm that does not bear a serial number needs to apply to the DOJ for one. When we look at the exceptions, no where does it say that you can apply your own and that's good enough. If it were exempt, they would state that.
Discogodfather, with all due respect, I think you need to explain better:

Now, if I have a lower that I self-serialized a couple years ago--in accordance with BATF requirements--then it DOES IN FACT HAVE A SERIAL NUMBER and this law is irrelevant to me.
From your own quote, the law says "...that does not bear a serial number...".
It does NOT say "...that does not bear a CA DOJ approved style serial number that you should have known (2 years ago!) that we would be requiring of you".
Therefore, my (hypothetical) self-serialized lower DOES IN FACT HAVE a serial number--generated in accordance with all laws of the land, local, state, and federal at the time; and therefore I don't even have to look at the exemptions because they are NA non-applicable in my case.
I would greatly appreciate a logical response.
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  #163  
Old 10-19-2017, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by FUCA2AFTW View Post

Now, if I have a lower that I self-serialized a couple years ago--in accordance with BATF requirements--then it DOES IN FACT HAVE A SERIAL NUMBER and this law is irrelevant to me.
What requirements? Cite Us Code you followed please.

Quote:
From your own quote, the law says "...that does not bear a serial number...".
It does NOT say "...that does not bear a CA DOJ approved style serial number that you should have known (2 years ago!) that we would be requiring of you".
That is from bill text not the PC you would be in violation of. See 29180 (c)
By January 1, 2019, any person who, as of July 1, 2018, owns a firearm that does not bear a serial number assigned to it pursuant to either Section 23910 or pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Part 1 of Title 18 of the United States Code and the regulations issued pursuant thereto, shall do all of the following:

Quote:
Therefore, my (hypothetical) self-serialized lower DOES IN FACT HAVE a serial number--generated in accordance with all laws of the land, local, state, and federal at the time; and therefore I don't even have to look at the exemptions because they are NA non-applicable in my case.
I would greatly appreciate a logical response.
Again what state, federal law did you follow?

The only US code I have see posted is for "Licensed Manufacturers" that home builders do not fall under that it looks like.
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  #164  
Old 10-19-2017, 11:19 AM
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Originally Posted by BONECUTTER View Post

The only US code I have see posted is for "Licensed Manufacturers" that home builders do not fall under that it looks like.
Yeah, I think that is one of the key issues. If there was some kind of exemption to point at that said it was ok for home builders to mark their own stuff, but it's all a stretch.

I'm no lawyer, nor do I claim to know what I am talking about beyond the shadow of a doubt. But I just fail to see how we defend ourselves when there is nothing to go by that feels solid in any way. I've wanted to spend some cash and ask a lawyer expert on this exact issue, but I have a feeling......

All of CA's gunapocalyse laws are going to create havoc in my opinion. There is just so much confusion and open questions. All I can think of is to rather be safe than sorry. Personally I feel comfortable taking my half dozen home builds (AR's, AK's, HK's, an Uzi) and pointing to my volreg status and paperwork.
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  #165  
Old 10-19-2017, 11:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Discogodfather View Post
Yeah, I think that is one of the key issues. If there was some kind of exemption to point at that said it was ok for home builders to mark their own stuff, but it's all a stretch.
I doubt you need an exemption. The law language is very clear. If you possess an un-serialized firearm, you have to apply for CADOJ issued number. Then again, the serialization rules are defined in BATFE regulations quite well. The law doesn't make a difference between the commercially manufactured firearm and a home project. Once it's serialized, it's serialized. You can even sell it lawfully.
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  #166  
Old 10-19-2017, 12:15 PM
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Again anyone who thinks this does not apply to self-serialized guns needs to read back in the thread where every possible exemption was evaluated for use and we fell flat. I started off thinking I had a leg to stand on but its not true.
Other than wishful thinking I suggest you consider the actual code as repeated above one more time:

"(c) By January 1, 2019, any person who, as of July 1, 2018, owns a firearm that does not bear a serial number assigned to it pursuant to either Section 23910 or pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Part 1 of Title 18 of the United States Code and the regulations issued pursuant thereto, shall do all of the following:....."

All you will find 1. a 23910 exemption for licensed manufacturers when we are all explicitly referred to in CA as "Unlicensed Subjects." Thats the "US" we have to fill in on VolReg docs....and 2. a Chapter 44 exemption for a properly registered Class 3 machine gun. If we are trying to not overthink this text, it is sadly quite clear above.

I'd love to be wrong but after hours on this and consulting an attorney I Volreged my self built rifles with my self-assigned serial numbers and now they are "in a centralized registry" so compliant with the new BS ghost gun laws coming online. However I cannot now register them as RAWs since all new RAWs need a DOJ assigned serial. They will stay featureless.
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  #167  
Old 10-19-2017, 12:20 PM
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Damn.
Thanks for all the replies. Sorry, I see I need to read more of the relevant threads/posts.
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  #168  
Old 10-19-2017, 2:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by riderr View Post
I doubt you need an exemption. The law language is very clear. If you possess an un-serialized firearm, you have to apply for CADOJ issued number. Then again, the serialization rules are defined in BATFE regulations quite well. The law doesn't make a difference between the commercially manufactured firearm and a home project. Once it's serialized, it's serialized. You can even sell it lawfully.
There may be some common law here because home builds, having been marked according to BATF requirements, have been transferred in this state for many years and there are likely 10s of thousands that are in the CA AFS system.
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  #169  
Old 10-20-2017, 12:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by riderr View Post
I doubt you need an exemption. The law language is very clear. If you possess an un-serialized firearm, you have to apply for CADOJ issued number. Then again, the serialization rules are defined in BATFE regulations quite well. The law doesn't make a difference between the commercially manufactured firearm and a home project. Once it's serialized, it's serialized. You can even sell it lawfully.
Right! This is kind of my thinking.
It might well boil down to the definition of "manufacturer".
Just the other night, I "manufactured" a slingshot and bow-and-arrow for my daughter.

Also, what is the definition of "is"?
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  #170  
Old 10-20-2017, 9:29 AM
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Originally Posted by FUCA2AFTW View Post
Right! This is kind of my thinking.
It might well boil down to the definition of "manufacturer".
Just the other night, I "manufactured" a slingshot and bow-and-arrow for my daughter.

Also, what is the definition of "is"?
Think the key was definition of "Licensed Manufacturer".

Licensed being the key word.
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  #171  
Old 10-20-2017, 9:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FUCA2AFTW View Post
Right! This is kind of my thinking.
It might well boil down to the definition of "manufacturer".
Just the other night, I "manufactured" a slingshot and bow-and-arrow for my daughter.

Also, what is the definition of "is"?
That would be why the term manufacturer is defined in each portion of the federal code that is referenced by the CA law. It's actually pretty clear and there isn't a lot of gray area.
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  #172  
Old 10-20-2017, 3:51 PM
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Serial # pffffft


Gun registration is very good for one thing -- confiscation. And even more immediately, gun registration is ideal to bolster the quickly growing public persecution of gun owners.

Last edited by spam; 10-21-2017 at 7:44 AM..
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  #173  
Old 10-20-2017, 10:43 PM
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Originally Posted by BONECUTTER View Post
Think the key was definition of "Licensed Manufacturer".

Licensed being the key word.

Hell yes I have a previous aw license so I’m licensed and if I made a 80% I did so in a machine shop that also has a business license . It ain’t not home build

The gap to overcome is how did some acquire their stash! Curious if anyone has got a appt application through with I don’t remember that sh I t ** on the application
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  #174  
Old 10-25-2017, 10:00 PM
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Just an update. I got my Volreg approved! Took less than two weeks, from filing, through CFARS to DOJ sending (via snail mail) the approval letter.
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  #175  
Old 10-25-2017, 11:41 PM
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Just an update. I got my Volreg approved! Took less than two weeks, from filing, through CFARS to DOJ sending (via snail mail) the approval letter.


That’s good to hear. Hopefully you don’t have to deface your serial and add theirs.


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  #176  
Old 10-25-2017, 11:46 PM
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That’s good to hear. Hopefully you don’t have to deface your serial and add theirs.


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Actually you do need to deface and use theirs if you want to register as AW. It's also a crime to do so, defacing a serial in a centralized registry.

Basically, if you want to register as AW, then DO NOT vol reg.
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  #177  
Old 10-26-2017, 12:23 AM
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Actually you do need to deface and use theirs if you want to register as AW. It's also a crime to do so, defacing a serial in a centralized registry.



Basically, if you want to register as AW, then DO NOT vol reg.


Anyone know the word on this? Do we use form 1008 (revised 7/17) or email them for a S/N?


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  #178  
Old 10-26-2017, 4:38 AM
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Why would you deface the serial? Just add an additional one.
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  #179  
Old 10-26-2017, 9:33 AM
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Why would you deface the serial? Just add an additional one.
Fine to deface a serial that is not registered I guess, although Fed law says that the defacing of a serial is a crime. But if you volreg a serial, it's now "official". Defacing it is a crime.

Can a gun have two serials? Who knows in this insane State. I would think it's frowned upon, even though you have a volreg and an offical issued serial?

Bottom line is, if you want to register as AW and go through that process, DO NOT volreg, there is no point. You'd be double registering.

I would imagine, even if it is legal, when you go to sell a firearm with two serials you would be in a pickle.
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  #180  
Old 10-26-2017, 9:35 AM
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Originally Posted by solidfreshdope View Post
Anyone know the word on this? Do we use form 1008 (revised 7/17) or email them for a S/N?


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No word yet, people have not tried it yet to my knowledge. Unfortunately, I am planning not to at this point on my 7 home builds, mostly because I do not want to remark them.

But yes, form 1008 seems like the place to start. DOJ on the phone says the system is not ready yet, so take it with a grain of salt and wait until they can give us a straight answer.
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  #181  
Old 10-26-2017, 4:30 PM
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I just got a reply back from dojserialnumber@doj.ca.gov with a PDF copy of BOF 1008 stating I can fill that out and either email or snail mail it to them. I'll be doing this soon as they don't seem to be answering emails very quickly.
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  #182  
Old 11-01-2017, 9:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Discogodfather View Post
Fine to deface a serial that is not registered I guess, although Fed law says that the defacing of a serial is a crime. But if you volreg a serial, it's now "official". Defacing it is a crime.

Can a gun have two serials? Who knows in this insane State. I would think it's frowned upon, even though you have a volreg and an offical issued serial?

Bottom line is, if you want to register as AW and go through that process, DO NOT volreg, there is no point. You'd be double registering.

I would imagine, even if it is legal, when you go to sell a firearm with two serials you would be in a pickle.
I've been wondering about why on earth would the DOJ require their own serial for home-made AWs when that requirement is nowhere in the law.

The best answer that I can come up with is that someone seriously screwed the pooch when designing their database/tracking system. Setting an inadequate primary key, for example, is a very common rookie mistake, and I think something like that is what happened here so now they're married to a unique Manufacturer-Serial combination. Since the manufacturer for private folks is just 'Unlicensed Subject' or something like that, then unique combinations for registered private folks may not exist. If that's the issue, instead of fixing it, they now want to dictate new rules out of thin air. If that's the case someone who was actually competent when putting their systems together would've set up things in a flexible way to future-proof for things like the new AW registration laws, but maybe competence is too much to expect from a government agency.

Anyway, that's my speculation in keeping with Hanlon's razor, or 'never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.'
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  #183  
Old 11-27-2017, 6:27 AM
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I don't think Federal Law ever required home builds to have serial numbers unless it was a restricted class of firearm. So no, home builders are not considered "licensed manufactures". A licensed manufacturer has a FFL registration with the Federal government to manufacturer and sell firearms.

Also, prior to Gunmaggedon in CA, home builds of non-restricted class firearms did not require registration either, Federal or State. Serialization of these firearms was only ever required if they were being sold, or if the builder wanted to voluntarily register them. Something the CA Stated tried to push on people to do under the practices and laws that allowed prosecutors to upgrade certain misdemeanor gun offenses to felonies on unregistered firearms. All in an attempt to get people who don't cooperate with guns laws to lose their civil rights to even own a firearm. It's all BS.

AN IMPORTANT NOTE ON THIS THREAD'S TOPIC:

Some posters have said that ALL home built firearms must have serial numbers affixed to them...but this is not entirely true in the strict application of the new laws to certain situations.

Although you will have to have a serial number assigned to you by the DOJ prior to building your new firearm, you are not actually required to have the serial number affixed to the firearm for up to 10 days after the build.

So if you get pulled over with a un-serialized home built 1911 or AR-15 (or any other home built gun) in your car while driving to the engravers, those firearms are not technically illegal (yet.) Even if you stop off at the gun range to test them out prior to the engraving, it's not technically illegal as far as I know, unless you built the gun over 10 days prior.

Also, I don't think there's any laws about destroying a home built firearm prior to affixing a serial number on it. At least nothing I can find. I wouldn't want to spend money on engraving a firearm just so I could destroy it because it's not working properly (a situation I've been in a few times in doing home builds, usually because I messed up on the milling or something.)
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  #184  
Old 11-30-2017, 4:15 PM
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http://crpa.org/general-summary-info...-firearm-laws/

“...Additionally, any person who as of July 1, 2018, owns a frearm that does not bear a serial number (barring limited exceptions) must apply to DOJ for a unique serial number to be placed on the frearm no later than January 1, 2019....”

Disco . There’s no mention there for any sort of registration for serialized featureless 80% builds. No volreg no other bull&*$#@.

Really, why on the moon some of you guys create long threads full of misinformation - attention deficit?
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  #185  
Old 11-30-2017, 4:40 PM
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You need to read the thread and AB 857. There is no exemption other than the ones listed, and I am not confident those apply. What makes you think there is anything thats grandfathered in?
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  #186  
Old 12-05-2017, 1:41 PM
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So is the conclusion that all home built guns need to have CA DOJ assigned serial number on them? Either to register as AWBB or not right?
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  #187  
Old 12-05-2017, 3:07 PM
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So is the conclusion that all home built guns need to have CA DOJ assigned serial number on them? Either to register as AWBB or not right?
I'm jumping in here sort of stupid, please all forgive that there is so much to read, but the last conclusion I reached some time ago was....

I thought serialized by yourself (and your actual name as manufacturer) by July 2018, featureless or fixed mag and you were good to go?
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  #188  
Old 12-05-2017, 4:03 PM
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I'm jumping in here sort of stupid, please all forgive that there is so much to read, but the last conclusion I reached some time ago was....

I thought serialized by yourself (and your actual name as manufacturer) by July 2018, featureless or fixed mag and you were good to go?
Maybe that works for not registering, but I think you still have to be in the system. Hopefully someone with more knowledge will come in here and slap me correct.

I know Disco has been trying to flesh this out, seems a law degree is needed to figure out how not to get in trouble.
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  #189  
Old 12-05-2017, 4:21 PM
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So is the conclusion that all home built guns need to have CA DOJ assigned serial number on them? Either to register as AWBB or not right?


At least to register as an AW, it seems so. I think the verdict is still out on if you are not registering as an AW, if VolReg counts as “in a centralized database” as far as the CA DOJ views it.


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  #190  
Old 12-06-2017, 7:47 AM
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Maybe that works for not registering, but I think you still have to be in the system. Hopefully someone with more knowledge will come in here and slap me correct.

I know Disco has been trying to flesh this out, seems a law degree is needed to figure out how not to get in trouble.
Ignorance of the law should be a valid defense these days due to confusing maze of legal mumbo jumbo nonsense.
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  #191  
Old 12-06-2017, 8:01 AM
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Originally Posted by CessnaDriver View Post
Ignorance of the law should be a valid defense these days due to confusing maze of legal mumbo jumbo nonsense.
I agree. But the unspoken goal is to create as many felony traps as possible to destroy the law abiding gun owner in California.

Gun owners are the enemy in California.
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  #192  
Old 12-09-2017, 11:26 AM
W62vette W62vette is offline
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Originally Posted by thepunisher View Post
Maybe that works for not registering, but I think you still have to be in the system. Hopefully someone with more knowledge will come in here and slap me correct.

I know Disco has been trying to flesh this out, seems a law degree is needed to figure out how not to get in trouble.
Received DOJ VolReg letter for my featureless AR yesterday (copy of letter attached).
As stated, I am in the "... Automated Firearms System". My self-assigned SN was accepted. For me, this is the end of the story.
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  #193  
Old 12-09-2017, 6:43 PM
EricClay EricClay is offline
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Originally Posted by W62vette View Post
Received DOJ VolReg letter for my featureless AR yesterday (copy of letter attached).
As stated, I am in the "... Automated Firearms System". My self-assigned SN was accepted. For me, this is the end of the story.
Was this from an 80%?
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  #194  
Old 12-09-2017, 8:12 PM
W62vette W62vette is offline
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Yes; 80% Arms supplied the tooling and anodized / serialized lower.
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  #195  
Old 12-09-2017, 8:54 PM
Jedediah Munroe Jedediah Munroe is offline
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Originally Posted by W62vette View Post
Received DOJ VolReg letter for my featureless AR yesterday (copy of letter attached).

As stated, I am in the "... Automated Firearms System". My self-assigned SN was accepted. For me, this is the end of the story.


Model “ AR-15 “ to boot. LOL
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  #196  
Old 12-10-2017, 2:10 PM
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Inlander Arms Inlander Arms is offline
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I can see this leading to confusion with some law enforcement, who might think every gun they encounter in the field after 2019 should pop up in AFS, when most long guns and some handguns still won't...
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  #197  
Old 12-10-2017, 2:22 PM
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I can see this leading to confusion with some law enforcement, who might think every gun they encounter in the field after 2019 should pop up in AFS, when most long guns and some handguns still won't...
I think this is why it is imperative that you have a good paper trail and carry it with the rifle.
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  #198  
Old 12-10-2017, 3:10 PM
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I missed the boat on making my own rifle.
Why make your own these days then have to jump through a million hoops to try to comply with these insane laws?

If I had a unserialized home build I would destroy it before registering it and then I would buy a factory built lower for $30 + dros fee and swap the parts.

I can't wait to move out of this state.
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  #199  
Old 12-10-2017, 3:20 PM
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Obey..
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Serial # pffffft


Gun registration is very good for one thing -- confiscation. And even more immediately, gun registration is ideal to bolster the quickly growing public persecution of gun owners.
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  #200  
Old 12-10-2017, 4:26 PM
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This is good news!! will they accept your self serial num when you go to register it as an assault weapon?
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