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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #81  
Old 08-16-2017, 11:38 PM
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Originally Posted by familyfarm View Post
I wish that 26 USC 53 helped us out of 857 requirements, but it is a chapter about machine guns and you have simply picked out the part about how to mark a machine gun.
Hmm, fair enough, but 18 USC 44 has the same marking requirements.


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Originally Posted by Discogodfather View Post
We covered this earlier, and BeAuMaN did a much more in depth writeup of the Fed laws in another thread on another forum. I can ask him to PM the text.

Unfortunately, your version of the 27 CFR 478.92 leaves out a critical word, which is present in all the versions I have read:

"§ 478.92 How must licensed manufacturers and licensed importers identify firearms, armor piercing ammunition, and large capacity ammunition feeding devices?"

If you go to this legal website it has a hyperlink definition of what a "licensed manufacturer" means:

"Licensed manufacturer. A manufacturer licensed under the provisions of this part. "

So this does not sound like a home builder. I fear that over Zealous DA's would not blink at that exemption, knowing that getting ATF in to clarify is going to be very difficult.
I'd like to see the fed analysis.

However, 857 specifically exempts firearms marked in accordance with 18 USC 44 and pursuant regs, and 27 CFR 478 is that reg. 478 doesn't prevent non licensed mfgs from marking in accordance with those guidelines, and neither does 857.

I'd love to hear what Librarian has to say.
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  #82  
Old 08-17-2017, 12:23 AM
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Originally Posted by AragornElessar86 View Post
Hmm, fair enough, but 18 USC 44 has the same marking requirements.

I'd like to see the fed analysis.

However, 857 specifically exempts firearms marked in accordance with 18 USC 44 and pursuant regs, and 27 CFR 478 is that reg. 478 doesn't prevent non licensed mfgs from marking in accordance with those guidelines, and neither does 857.

I'd love to hear what Librarian has to say.
All comes down to what is meant by "licensed manufacturer". Are home builders licensed manufacturers?

And the law and regs are clear in the sense that they don't mentioned "unlicensed subjects" (which is what they call us in CA law and regs).

I've asked this question many times to DOJ, they had absolutely nothing to say. I've called ATF, and they always seem vague. I ask the direct question "are home builders licensed manufacturers?". I've gotten yes, no, and maybe answers, with the constant disclaimer of "also check local and State laws". Not very confidence inspiring.

There are other factors to consider too:

1) If you have the need to remain "off the radar" and have no other guns or are not in and databases, then this interpretation of having exemption A seems awfully close to what you would want to believe. Cooper seemed to have the intention, at least to me, to not allow this to happen.

2) If you have other registered post 2011 and 2014 guns, what difference does it make to appear in a DB when your already in?

3) Penalty for being wrong with a featureless rifle (or other non-AW) is a misdemeanor and possibly confiscation. Not particularly horrible, but not great either.

4) If you want to register as AW, the volreg method seems like the only way in without doing the DOJ assigned process, which I think anyone can agree is pretty much the most costly and difficult process possible. (of course we have no idea if it will work yet)


Given those issues, where does it put us?
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  #83  
Old 08-17-2017, 6:34 AM
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I'd love to believe that would stand up, but lets look at the definition of "manufacturer" in Chapter 44 if you would like to fall under it:

"The term “manufacturer” means any person engaged in the business of manufacturing firearms or ammunition for purposes of sale or distribution; and the term “licensed manufacturer” means any such person licensed under the provisions of this chapter."

Here is the citation: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/921

Home builders are likely not in the business of manufacturing. So whether you put the word "licensed" in front of it seems to matter little.

I sat through several Michel LLP webinars and each time they hit this issue, they indicated that we likely needed to VolReg or get a number from the DOJ to serialize. If anyone has spoken to them or a legit counsel who supports the "mark it by 7/2018 and you are fine" strategy, please speak up.
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  #84  
Old 08-17-2017, 7:23 AM
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Who's gonna be the test case?
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  #85  
Old 08-17-2017, 4:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AragornElessar86 View Post
Stuff on homebuild marking on like a licensed manufacturer
Discogodfather PMed me. Basically I don't want to really post the stuff I posted earlier right now, as it goes into some decent detail (even in an amateurish, non-lawyerly way, I found some pretty good links). We saw what CA DoJ did with the AWB regulations, where they included Semiautomatic shotguns in the registration scheme even SB 880 specifically did not include them in the new definitions for magazines.

CA DoJ could do the same with exemptions A and/or D, basically ignoring them as if they didn't exist in the regulations they write. Therefore, even if you know, I know, and we all know that we could meet the exemptions under A and/or D pursuant to ATF regulations, CA DoJ's regulations will be the law of our state, until such time they're overturned in a successful court case.

As such, that's why I want to keep this a bit close to the chest for now and wait for CA DoJ to release their regs and for them to be finalized. If they preserve exemptions A and/or D, then we can use them as the law is written. If they exclude those exemptions in the regulations effectively, then it's another argument for the eventual case when CRPA sues them.

Does that make sense?
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  #86  
Old 08-17-2017, 6:43 PM
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Yes, it does. Thanks.
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  #87  
Old 08-18-2017, 11:56 PM
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So just register my home build along with the rest of my AW/firearms and put myself as the manufacturer?
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  #88  
Old 08-19-2017, 12:27 AM
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So just register my home build along with the rest of my AW/firearms and put myself as the manufacturer?
More or less, yes. Follow link in my signature for more info about registering stuff
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  #89  
Old 08-20-2017, 9:31 AM
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I'm concerned with exemption (d) for Californians with home built items, that are registered, marked and tax stamped with ATF in accordance with NFA, but not entered into the ARS system. Depending on the regs, this could be a huge issue.
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  #90  
Old 08-20-2017, 11:08 AM
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Here's some info from the 80% Arms website, although it shouldn't be considered legal advice. It's also interesting that AB857 included language that defers the exemption to federal regulations, meaning home builders who opt to get their firearms professionally engraved and be done with it might have a defense beyond what is spelled out in the US code. Just thinking aloud:
Quote:
Some states may have more restrictive regulations. The following is for California residents ONLY: In July, 2016, California passed AB 857 which requires all completed firearms to have a serial number applied by Jan 1, 2019. An 80% lower is not a firearm, so a serial number would only be required once the 80% lower is completed. Unfinished 80% lower receivers do not need a serial number.

If you engrave a serial number of your choosing into your completed 80% lower prior to Jul 1, 2018, you will not be affected by this law and you do not need to notify any government agency that you built a firearm. In other words, you can make up any serial number you want (as long as it meets ATF's definition of a serial number), engrave it on your receiver, and this will satisfy California’s legal requirement. You do not need to apply to the state, or tell them what your serial number is. Your lower can still legally remain completely off the radar. The important thing is you MUST engrave your serial number before July 1, 2018 to take advantage of this benefit.

After July, 2018, the law changes for the worse. If you build an 80% lower after July 1, 2018, you must FIRST apply to the California DOJ for a serial number, pay a fee, and they will then assign a serial number that you must apply to your firearm. In this case, you can’t choose your own serial number and your serial number will be in the state government’s data base. If you want to avoid falling under this law, make sure you engrave your own serial number to your completed 80% lowers before July 2018.

If you build an 80% lower and use your own “unregistered" serial number after July 2018, it would be a misdemeanor, although the state would have the burden of trying to prove in court that you did in fact build the lower after the July 2018 cut off date.

80% Arms offers an 80% lower receiver serialization service. We have an FFL license and can engrave a serial number on your completed 80% lower receiver that meets ATF requirements.
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  #91  
Old 08-20-2017, 2:18 PM
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^^^^ until someone can explain how exemptions A & D apply to us, I'd take that as a misinterpretation or purely marketing. I've already had it explained how those exemptions don't apply to us, and can see the reasoning when reading the US code.
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  #92  
Old 08-20-2017, 3:02 PM
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^^^^ until someone can explain how exemptions A & D apply to us, I'd take that as a misinterpretation or purely marketing. I've already had it explained how those exemptions don't apply to us, and can see the reasoning when reading the US code.
If you make a firearm, keep a record of its manufacture and who you transferred it to (yourself), then register it with the Feds?

Honestly, I'd buy all new 100% receivers which will be auto registered when you buy them, assemble my firearms out of those to go shooting and (if and)when they confiscate everyone's guns, turn in the DROS'd receivers. Given how cheep AR lowers are, the amount of money above what it costs to VolReg them isnt significant enough to worry about. *shrug*
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  #93  
Old 08-20-2017, 7:40 PM
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It's a giant gray area, but for the time being my priorities are:

1) Figure out a way to volreg so there is NO DOUBT that my serial and engraving will be accepted by these clowns at DOJ

2) Figure out a way into the AW registry without needed to do their stupid assigned serial process. That looks like the only solution is to try the volreg route.

Even if the interpretation of the exemptions makes it so we can ignore doing anything further with the DOJ it still requires us to convert our guns to featureless, something I really don't want to do on some of my builds.

Still waiting on MudCamper and a few others to give us work on the approval process. So far, it looks like applications are taking a good long time and who knows when the word will get back to us.
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  #94  
Old 08-20-2017, 8:56 PM
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Originally Posted by cockedandglocked View Post
I browsed the Penal Code briefly, and it *appears* that misdemeanor firearm violations only trigger a prohibition status if it was a violent crime. So in this case a violation probably would just result in confiscation of that gun and a misdemeanor penalty of some sort (fine and/or jail/probation, but I don't know how much of either)
Prosecutors can and do ask to impose gun restrictions for non-violent misdemeanors. I think it is garbage but certain DA's offices are very anti gun.

I've seen cases where they asked for a 10 year ban for a case of carrying a concealed weapon and/or loaded weapon in the vehicle, and there is no other charge or crime alleged.
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  #95  
Old 08-20-2017, 9:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Discogodfather View Post
Even if the interpretation of the exemptions makes it so we can ignore doing anything further with the DOJ it still requires us to convert our guns to featureless, something I really don't want to do on some of my builds.
Yeah, there seems to be zero reason not to Volreg things if you have to AW register anyway. My worry there would be since you didnt do so before Dec of last year, can you still do so now? You dont have "proof" you built it before you couldn't buy a BB assault weapon so... are they going to allow a grace period on good faith? Of course that might have been the original question in the thread, Im too lazy to go back and reread it though

Last edited by smokehammer; 08-20-2017 at 9:15 PM..
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  #96  
Old 08-20-2017, 9:24 PM
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So just register my home build along with the rest of my AW/firearms and put myself as the manufacturer?
lol
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  #97  
Old 08-21-2017, 9:04 AM
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Yeah, there seems to be zero reason not to Volreg things if you have to AW register anyway. My worry there would be since you didnt do so before Dec of last year, can you still do so now? You dont have "proof" you built it before you couldn't buy a BB assault weapon so... are they going to allow a grace period on good faith? Of course that might have been the original question in the thread, Im too lazy to go back and reread it though
I think many people have reported successful volreg of legally built 2001-2016 firearms in 2017.
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  #98  
Old 08-21-2017, 11:28 AM
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Ah, ok cool. Only the people with featureless builds or non-semi automatics have to worry about it then.
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  #99  
Old 08-21-2017, 5:16 PM
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Obviously we like the 80 percent arms interpretation better, but why is there any question on the law? This is ridiculous.

Any lawyers on here that can chime in on the 80 percent arms vs the advice in this thread (request sn, volreg, etc.).
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  #100  
Old 08-21-2017, 5:26 PM
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Obviously we like the 80 percent arms interpretation better, but why is there any question on the law? This is ridiculous.

Any lawyers on here that can chime in on the 80 percent arms vs the advice in this thread (request sn, volreg, etc.).
That's a great question. I have a feeling it's so ambiguous to them they can't even say.
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  #101  
Old 08-21-2017, 5:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Discogodfather View Post
I think many people have reported successful volreg of legally built 2001-2016 firearms in 2017.

The problem is all those voluntary registration were "single shot" not semi auto. If you try to register a single shot pistol, I don't think that qualifies as an AW. And if you changed it to semi auto, will there be an issue to try to register it as an AW?
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  #102  
Old 08-21-2017, 5:42 PM
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The problem is all those voluntary registration were "single shot" not semi auto. If you try to register a single shot pistol, I don't think that qualifies as an AW. And if you changed it to semi auto, will there be an issue to try to register it as an AW?
Think of it this way, though... stripped AR lowers were not semi-auto either when we bought them, andalso not registered in AFS as semi-auto, but if at some point we built it into a semi-auto rifle, they want us to register it. It was not illegal to build a rifle, nor was it illegal to convert a single-shot pistol to semi-auto, so regardless of what it's registered in AFS as, they should accept AW registration for both scenarios if that's what it is now.
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  #103  
Old 08-21-2017, 5:50 PM
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Originally Posted by jcwatchdog View Post
The problem is all those voluntary registration were "single shot" not semi auto. If you try to register a single shot pistol, I don't think that qualifies as an AW. And if you changed it to semi auto, will there be an issue to try to register it as an AW?
I don't think all of them were pistols, some rifles too. I will know shortly myself because I just submitted.
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  #104  
Old 08-22-2017, 9:38 PM
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I don't think all of them were pistols, some rifles too. I will know shortly myself because I just submitted.
Keeps us updated. All my 80% are semi pistols.
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  #105  
Old 08-25-2017, 11:04 PM
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So here's something interesting - you can fill out this ATF form send in $200 dollars an be a registered mfg. It's for NFA though . . . Wonder if it would work for Title 1 guns?

https://www.atf.gov/file/11281/download

Last edited by Nick123; 08-25-2017 at 11:16 PM..
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  #106  
Old 08-26-2017, 6:19 AM
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Originally Posted by jcwatchdog View Post
The problem is all those voluntary registration were "single shot" not semi auto. If you try to register a single shot pistol, I don't think that qualifies as an AW. And if you changed it to semi auto, will there be an issue to try to register it as an AW?

Not all voluntary registered 80% A.R. pistols were registered as single shot.
I just submitted one a few weeks ago provided no photos only commented that it was built as singleshot initially and converted to semi auto in 2014. Submitted electronically and received confirmation letter in about a week
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  #107  
Old 08-26-2017, 6:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Nick123 View Post
So here's something interesting - you can fill out this ATF form send in $200 dollars an be a registered mfg. It's for NFA though . . . Wonder if it would work for Title 1 guns?

https://www.atf.gov/file/11281/download


Sure put a vertical grip on your 80% pistol with overall length of less than 26 inches and you could register as an NFA AOW using the ATF form 1 and voila you have a US DOJ approved serial number
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  #108  
Old 08-26-2017, 10:14 AM
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Not all voluntary registered 80% A.R. pistols were registered as single shot.
I just submitted one a few weeks ago provided no photos only commented that it was built as singleshot initially and converted to semi auto in 2014. Submitted electronically and received confirmation letter in about a week
Any plans on now attempting to register your pistol as AW?
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  #109  
Old 08-26-2017, 11:29 PM
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How do we VolReg? Is there a link or do we have to snail mail?
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  #110  
Old 08-26-2017, 11:32 PM
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How do we VolReg? Is there a link or do we have to snail mail?
There is a form but you can use the CFARS, the CRIS system was rolled into it. I would just do it online personally, some people report it only takes a few weeks.
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Originally Posted by PMACA_MFG View Post
Not checkers, not chess, its Jenga.
"The California matrix of gun control laws is among the harshest in the nation and are filled with criminal law traps for people of common intelligence who desire to obey the law." - U.S. District Judge Roger T. Benitez

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  #111  
Old 08-27-2017, 12:06 AM
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There is a form but you can use the CFARS, the CRIS system was rolled into it. I would just do it online personally, some people report it only takes a few weeks.


Can you provide a link?
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  #112  
Old 08-27-2017, 12:11 AM
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Can you provide a link?
CFARS website (make an account and from left side menu choose Firearm Ownership Report (this is volreg).

Volreg using paper form and snail mail.
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Someone must put an end to this endless bickering by posting the unadulterated indisputable facts and truth.
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Originally Posted by PMACA_MFG View Post
Not checkers, not chess, its Jenga.
"The California matrix of gun control laws is among the harshest in the nation and are filled with criminal law traps for people of common intelligence who desire to obey the law." - U.S. District Judge Roger T. Benitez

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Old 08-27-2017, 12:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Discogodfather View Post
CFARS website (make an account and from left side menu choose Firearm Ownership Report (this is volreg).



Volreg using paper form and snail mail.


Thank you very much, sir!!
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  #114  
Old 08-28-2017, 2:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Discogodfather View Post
There is a form but you can use the CFARS, the CRIS system was rolled into it. I would just do it online personally, some people report it only takes a few weeks.
I VolReg'd an 80% build I completed in 2014 on 8/14/17. Received my approval letter on 8/23. This was way faster than submitting the manual forms via snail mail.
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Old 08-28-2017, 5:53 PM
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So say I have an unserialized home build and I just want to get a DOJ issued serial and be done with it. I haven't been able to get a response from the DOJ email address specified in the regulations or find the relevant for. Any advice? This should be doable right?
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Old 08-28-2017, 6:02 PM
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I VolReg'd an 80% build I completed in 2014 on 8/14/17. Received my approval letter on 8/23. This was way faster than submitting the manual forms via snail mail.
What style of 80% handgun did you submit? AK? AR? HK? XX?
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Old 08-28-2017, 6:45 PM
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I honestly don't even know where to begin in understanding this 80% crap. Mine will be that way forever since I have no god dam clue what to do. bought it last year and it has sat and will for the time being.
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Old 08-28-2017, 8:39 PM
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Originally Posted by zhyla View Post
So say I have an unserialized home build and I just want to get a DOJ issued serial and be done with it. I haven't been able to get a response from the DOJ email address specified in the regulations or find the relevant for. Any advice? This should be doable right?
Another reason to wait and see if our volreg to AW reg works.
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Originally Posted by doggie View Post
Someone must put an end to this endless bickering by posting the unadulterated indisputable facts and truth.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PMACA_MFG View Post
Not checkers, not chess, its Jenga.
"The California matrix of gun control laws is among the harshest in the nation and are filled with criminal law traps for people of common intelligence who desire to obey the law." - U.S. District Judge Roger T. Benitez

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  #119  
Old 08-28-2017, 10:36 PM
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What style of 80% handgun did you submit? AK? AR? HK? XX?
Not a pistol, my 80% is a 7.62 LR308 semi-auto rifle.
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  #120  
Old 08-29-2017, 6:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Discogodfather View Post
Another reason to wait and see if our volreg to AW reg works.
Sure, but the vanilla option specified in the regulations has to be doable. If it's impossible to get a serial from the DOJ the regulations have legal issues.

I'm going to try to give them a call and find out what's going on with that.
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