Calguns.net  

Home My iTrader Join the NRA Donate to CGSSA Sponsors CGN Google Search
CA Semiauto Ban(AW)ID Flowchart CA Handgun Ban ID Flowchart CA Shotgun Ban ID Flowchart
Go Back   Calguns.net > FIREARMS DISCUSSIONS > Curio & Relic/Black Powder
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read

Curio & Relic/Black Powder Curio & Relics and Black Powder Firearms, Old School shooting fun!

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 11-07-2017, 5:13 PM
gryffinwings gryffinwings is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: San Diego
Posts: 376
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default Raw Linseed vs Boiled Linseed? Original Military Rifle Stock Finish?

So I haven't found an answer to this quite yet.

I've heard that in some countries that rifle stocks were coated in Raw Linseed Oil. I don't see how this would work as Raw Linseed Oil takes very long time to cure regularly, from what I have read.

I've also heard that Boiled Linseed Oil was used, I can see this working just fine as what I have read that it doesn't take too long to cure.

For instance, I've heard, either one for the Japanese Type 38 Arisaka, before they started using Urushi.

I've heard the same about M1 Garands.

So... who's correct?

Trying to get a historically accurate answer.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 11-07-2017, 6:50 PM
sofbak sofbak is online now
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 2,591
iTrader: 5 / 100%
Default

Gawd, not this again...... Here is the last discussion:

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s....php?t=1392463

And a simple CG-search for "linseed" will produce a ton more discussions........
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 11-07-2017, 6:57 PM
maxx03 maxx03 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: At the game
Posts: 1,413
iTrader: 36 / 100%
Default

Flax seed oil will work as well as BLO.
You can find it at any health and nutrition store.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 11-07-2017, 7:00 PM
thetruecheese thetruecheese is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 373
iTrader: 7 / 100%
Default

BLO is fine... they may have used raw but they had weeks to wait for the parts to dry. Or if you are rubbing in a small coat by hand, it may just absorb a good degree into the pores in the wood even before it dries fully. I've done 2 or 3 rifles with it and it works okay... you'll need a lot of coats for any sort of visual effect. I added a couple to my old milsurps to help preserve the wood.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 11-07-2017, 7:15 PM
gryffinwings gryffinwings is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: San Diego
Posts: 376
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

These aren't the answers I'm looking for.

I'm asking for what the original arsenals would have used.

I'm not looking to find out which is better. I want to know what was used historically.

I haven't been able to find this answer to this.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 11-07-2017, 7:29 PM
God Bless America's Avatar
God Bless America God Bless America is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 5,163
iTrader: 9 / 100%
Default

Have you considered a time machine?
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 11-07-2017, 8:05 PM
NOTABIKER's Avatar
NOTABIKER NOTABIKER is online now
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 7,600
iTrader: 22 / 100%
Default

M 1 Garands were dipped in linseed oil.
BLO is modified linseed oil to dry faster.
Health food store flax seed oil is what i use, it is the same seed.
after many coats of flaxseed oil on my replacement garand stock she is awfully purdy. Dark Walnut.

Last edited by NOTABIKER; 11-07-2017 at 8:09 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 11-07-2017, 8:38 PM
Enfield47's Avatar
Enfield47 Enfield47 is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Land of the free
Posts: 6,385
iTrader: 4 / 100%
Default

From what I've read, most stocks were put into large vats of hot linseed oil and left out to dry on large racks. The Brits seemed to like double dipping and soaking their stocks in it because many of the old stocks from WWI are soaked almost all the way through. The armousers once a year would put stocks in the hot linseed oil overnight for those that they said needed it. My P14 has enough linseed oil in it for at least a dozen or more stocks.

BLO as we know it today didn't exist back then. Boiled Linseed Oil was just that and could be applied by hand because there weren't chemical driers in it. It penetrates deeper than raw linseed oil and helps keep the stocks from drying out and prevents the wood from shrinking.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 11-07-2017, 8:48 PM
Woodythedog Woodythedog is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 167
iTrader: 5 / 100%
Default

In 1965 at Parris Island, after a haircuts and uniform fitting they handed me an M1 and every night before showering I cleaned that Garand and hand rubbed the stock with what I remember to be raw linseed oil..Later at the rifle range we were given M16's and still rubbed them with the raw linseed.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 11-07-2017, 9:11 PM
knucklehead0202 knucklehead0202 is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Whittier, East LA/North OC county
Posts: 4,088
iTrader: 19 / 100%
Default

But m16's are plastic. ?
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 11-07-2017, 9:16 PM
Milsurp Collector's Avatar
Milsurp Collector Milsurp Collector is offline
Calguns Addict
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Free America
Posts: 5,884
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by gryffinwings View Post
These aren't the answers I'm looking for.

I'm asking for what the original arsenals would have used.

I'm not looking to find out which is better. I want to know what was used historically.

I haven't been able to find this answer to this.
Where did you look? Anywhere other than the Internet?

The answers can be found on page 77 of this book:



on pages 70 and 77 of this book:



on page 125 of this book



on page 13 of this book



and page 151 of this book:



Stocks were submerged in vats of raw linseed oil - not boiled linseed oil - to completely saturate the wood. It was common practice at armories around the world. Springfield Armory had been doing that for decades and other manufacturers making stocks for US military rifles followed the same procedures. Springfield Armory also used 100% pure tung oil for a time for the M1 Rifle because it smoked less than linseed oil from the heat generated from rapid semiautomatic fire, but since most tung oil came from China in the 1930s-40s the supply became erratic after Japan invaded China in 1937. Tung nut tree plantations were started in the southern US to help supply tung oil, but raw linseed oil was an approved substitute.

S.E. Overton was the main stock and handguard supplier for Inland Division, which made most of the M1 Carbines. After World War II S.E. Overton made replacement M1 Carbine and M1 Rifle stocks and handguards, as well as stocks for the M14 Rifle. The following is from page 77 of The M1 Carbine: A Revolution in Gun Stocking, which is a book about the stock-making processes at S.E. Overton.

Quote:
Operation No. 37 Dip in oil.

Original specifications were for submerging stocks five minutes in raw linseed oil, drain and wipe off the surplus oil left on the surface. This had been the oiling process for years at the Springfield Armory. By experimenting we found much better penetration of the oil by dipping until completely submerged, draining on special racks, and then placing the gun stocks on moveable racks to stand for a certain period allowing the wood to absorb the excess oil on the surface, rather than wiping it off. This new process eliminated an expensive wiping operation, also the fire hazard of oil-soaked wipers, and it gives better penetration and protection to the wood.
The Internet is great, and basically free, but it doesn't contain the sum total of all human knowledge.

This is how people who have never known a world without the Internet find answers to their questions: Google it, and if that doesn't provide the answer, go somewhere else on the Internet like here to try to find the answer. If nobody on the Internet can provide the answer, then it must be a mystery.

There is a lot of information in books that isn't on the Internet. What's going to happen when old fashioned guys like me aren't around to transfer information from books to the young guys who aren't in the habit of looking in books for information, much less buying and reading them?

Some of you guys are going to have to pick up the torch and start building your libraries for when we old farts are no longer around to look things up in our books for you.
__________________
Revolvers are not pistols

Quote:
pistol noun pis·tol \ˈpi-stəl\

1: a handgun whose chamber is integral with the barrel
Calling a revolver a "pistol" is like calling a magazine a "clip", calling a shotgun a rifle, or a calling a man a woman.

ExitCalifornia.org

Last edited by Milsurp Collector; 11-08-2017 at 10:37 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 11-08-2017, 3:26 AM
peppermintman's Avatar
peppermintman peppermintman is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 1,942
iTrader: 10 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodythedog View Post
In 1965 at Parris Island, after a haircuts and uniform fitting they handed me an M1 and every night before showering I cleaned that Garand and hand rubbed the stock with what I remember to be raw linseed oil..Later at the rifle range we were given M16's and still rubbed them with the raw linseed.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 11-08-2017, 4:52 AM
Hinnerk's Avatar
Hinnerk Hinnerk is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: East SF Bay
Posts: 779
iTrader: 3 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by maxx03 View Post
Flax seed oil will work as well as BLO.
You can find it at any health and nutrition store.
Flaxseed oil is just another name for linseed oil. The edible is equivalent to raw linseed oil.

p.s. however, don't assume that the raw linseed oil from the hardware store is edible. BLO definitely contains toxic or otherwise inedible metallic additives to speed drying.

Last edited by Hinnerk; 11-08-2017 at 10:20 AM.. Reason: public safety
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 11-08-2017, 6:29 AM
God Bless America's Avatar
God Bless America God Bless America is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 5,163
iTrader: 9 / 100%
Default

OP if you are deciding which oil to use when refinishing a stock, it will make little if any difference if you stick with drying oils. You will never get all the old oil out, what little you put back on top will all look the same, unless you get something with a varnish in it, like "tung oil finish." Those get glossy and shiny.

ETA changed teak oil to tung oil.

Last edited by God Bless America; 11-08-2017 at 9:31 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 11-08-2017, 5:14 PM
CinnamonBear723 CinnamonBear723 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Orange County
Posts: 1,876
iTrader: 5 / 100%
Default

I prefer tung oil personally
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 11-08-2017, 5:27 PM
TMB 1's Avatar
TMB 1 TMB 1 is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: 530
Posts: 7,151
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by God Bless America View Post
OP if you are deciding which oil to use when refinishing a stock, it will make little if any difference if you stick with drying oils. You will never get all the old oil out, what little you put back on top will all look the same, unless you get something with a varnish in it, like "teak oil finish." Those get glossy and shiny.
Teak Oil is just a mix of Tung Oil and Linseed Oil. It is what I use, none of my stocks are glossy and shiny. Straight Tung Oil can be use to make a glossy shiny finish though, with enough elbow grease.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 11-08-2017, 9:33 PM
God Bless America's Avatar
God Bless America God Bless America is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 5,163
iTrader: 9 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TMB 1 View Post
Teak Oil is just a mix of Tung Oil and Linseed Oil. It is what I use, none of my stocks are glossy and shiny. Straight Tung Oil can be use to make a glossy shiny finish though, with enough elbow grease.
You are correct, I meant "tung oil finish."

"Teak oil" is different. Quite good too. Nice and thin.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 11-08-2017, 10:42 PM
rmnc3r's Avatar
rmnc3r rmnc3r is online now
Member
 
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 488
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Default

Original Stocks would have been treated with Raw linseed oil
Boiled linseed oil isn't heated or boiled; it is RLO with an additive called Japan Drier - synthetic urushiol - to speed up hardening but wasn't used on WWII era stocks. Other finishes like Tung Oil was also used, but RLO was the primary finish

http://forums.thecmp.org/showthread.php?t=70438
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 11-09-2017, 6:40 AM
Hinnerk's Avatar
Hinnerk Hinnerk is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: East SF Bay
Posts: 779
iTrader: 3 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rmnc3r View Post
Original Stocks would have been treated with Raw linseed oil
Boiled linseed oil isn't heated or boiled; it is RLO with an additive called Japan Drier - synthetic urushiol - to speed up hardening but wasn't used on WWII era stocks. Other finishes like Tung Oil was also used, but RLO was the primary finish

http://forums.thecmp.org/showthread.php?t=70438
Japan Drier is not synthetic urushiol (the Wikipedia entry is confusing on that account). Urushiol is the chemical in poison ivy that causes the well known rash. It's name comes from 'Urushi' the sap of the tree of the same name that is used in Japanese Lacquer finish (like on some [all?] Arisaka rifles). The Urushi tree is a sumac and is related to poison ivy and both produce urushiol and cause the same skin rash.

Last edited by Hinnerk; 11-09-2017 at 6:42 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 11-09-2017, 6:53 AM
God Bless America's Avatar
God Bless America God Bless America is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 5,163
iTrader: 9 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rmnc3r View Post
Original Stocks would have been treated with Raw linseed oil
Boiled linseed oil isn't heated or boiled; it is RLO with an additive called Japan Drier - synthetic urushiol - to speed up hardening but wasn't used on WWII era stocks. Other finishes like Tung Oil was also used, but RLO was the primary finish

http://forums.thecmp.org/showthread.php?t=70438
BLO is partially heated and treated under pressure, it's more than RLO plus siccative salt.

OP, have we helped at all?

Last edited by God Bless America; 11-09-2017 at 6:58 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 11-09-2017, 11:57 AM
gryffinwings gryffinwings is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: San Diego
Posts: 376
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Thank youall for providing me the correct historical information. I was seeing a lot of contradicting information regarding this, people saying it was BLO instead of RLO.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 11-09-2017, 5:26 PM
rmnc3r's Avatar
rmnc3r rmnc3r is online now
Member
 
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 488
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hinnerk View Post
Japan Drier is not synthetic urushiol (the Wikipedia entry is confusing on that account). Urushiol is the chemical in poison ivy that causes the well known rash. It's name comes from 'Urushi' the sap of the tree of the same name that is used in Japanese Lacquer finish (like on some [all?] Arisaka rifles). The Urushi tree is a sumac and is related to poison ivy and both produce urushiol and cause the same skin rash.
Yes, factually correct - I knew it was Urushi and checked Wikipedia to be sure,
so I went with Wiki's 'Urushiol' and 'synthetic' since Japanese Urushi would have been generally unavailable once the fireworks started after 07 Dec 1941
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 11-09-2017, 6:05 PM
mj1's Avatar
mj1 mj1 is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 3,311
iTrader: 21 / 100%
Default

LOL I think this debate will be going on long after most of us are dust.

I recall a base wide training exercise in 1966 just as my unit was reforming after being stood down in 1954. We did not have anything near our TOE issue equipments like many other units reforming at the time. We were issued M1 Garand's for the exercise and week before picked them up from boxcars in large wooden racks of I think ten rifle per side. These were beautiful rifles in unissued condition and the stocks were a unusual orange color and dry as desert sand with a slight fuzzy surface. We drew 250 of these and no ammo or slings. After two weeks of lumping them around the panhandle of Oklahoma we received an instruction to preserve them for storage with a solution of raw linseed oil and 20% turpentine. We and most of the arms rooms drew gallon cans of the raw oil and turpentine. They had sheets of instructions that nobody read and everyone proceeded to lather the M1's with the mixture and wipe them down with rags then rack them up for shipping. Many of the units were still in tents out on the reservation or back on base in arms rooms. I was one of the later and had proper metal bins for the rags. OMG I think we had a dozen fires out on the training areas from spontaneous combustion of the rags and two of the wooden barracks burned down on base. It was summer on the panhandle of Oklahoma for goodness sake, those rags would have flashed at 85 degrees in direct sun lite. I never did hear if anything happened in those boxcars on some siding with the oil soaked stocks with 20% turpentine vaping. Just a warning when you play with this stuff. I still use the 20% mix but dis-guard my old socks I used to rub the mix into the wood in to a bucket of water. Be careful out there.
__________________
WTS As new M47 Madsen 3006 w/bayonet.
WTS NIB Mosin 91/59
I will deliver or ship, details to be arranged with buyer.
The Spartans do not ask how many the enemies are but where they are.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 11-11-2017, 6:49 PM
saki302's Avatar
saki302 saki302 is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 7,134
iTrader: 94 / 100%
Default

I've warned my wife- when I kick the bucket, some of my gun books are quite rare and valuable!

For BLO- I find a single coating gives it a nice matte to semi-gloss finish. More than 1-2, it starts to look shiny like a sporter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Milsurp Collector View Post
Some of you guys are going to have to pick up the torch and start building your libraries for when we old farts are no longer around to look things up in our books for you.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 11-12-2017, 12:57 PM
gryffinwings gryffinwings is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: San Diego
Posts: 376
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by saki302 View Post
I've warned my wife- when I kick the bucket, some of my gun books are quite rare and valuable!

For BLO- I find a single coating gives it a nice matte to semi-gloss finish. More than 1-2, it starts to look shiny like a sporter.
I assume that the shiny finish is because it is going through the polymerization process as it cures, if curing is the correct word for the process.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 11-13-2017, 3:34 AM
God Bless America's Avatar
God Bless America God Bless America is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 5,163
iTrader: 9 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by gryffinwings View Post
I assume that the shiny finish is because it is going through the polymerization process as it cures, if curing is the correct word for the process.
It starts to build up on the surface. When it is absorbed in the wood you don't see the gloss.

A glossy finish can be knocked down with steel wool, but the finish in the pores, pinholes, and other low spots will still shine.

"Satin" or "low gloss" oil finishes have flattening agents added, like talc. They are still shiny. FYI.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 5:53 PM.




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Proudly hosted by GeoVario the Premier 2A host.
Calguns.net, the 'Calguns' name and all associated variants and logos are ® Trademark and © Copyright 2002-2021, Calguns.net an Incorporated Company All Rights Reserved.
All opinions, statements and remarks made by Calguns.net on this web site and elsewhere are solely attributable to Calguns.net.



Seams2SewBySusy