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  #1  
Old 05-15-2019, 4:45 PM
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Default CA gun laws for idiots w/legal references stored with your firearms?

Has this been discussed previously?

I'm contemplating the idea of having a list of CA laws and specifications/photos along with my firearms. Not directly referencing my firearms but a large set of documents with the legal requirements for firearms in CA, the definition of applicable items such as a pistol brace, AR magazine/action lock IE : a firearm with an arm brace has been declared by the ATF to be lawful, The DOJ makes no formal ruling on it to be unlawful.* see section A paragraph 2 of attached SB880 paperwork. maybe 10 pages of examples of lawful configurations of pistols and rifles not referencing anything I own, with references to CA DOJ/ ATF literature. And maybe a warning within the literature itself to LE the literature is completely present in front of them and they need to contact a CO before making any foolish decisions as the CA firearms community, NRA will become involved and be given the name, badge number, dept and commanding officers contact of the officer seizing lawful firearms.

Basically firearms law for dummies, for LE Good idea? bad idea? The SB-15 ATF latter goes with the firearm at all times but with the magazine freedom week, AR magazine action locks I don't have much faith, I have concern they are going to illegal seize and figure out if its lawful after the fact.
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Old 05-15-2019, 5:50 PM
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It isn't up to LE to determine legal configurations of rifles, mags, etc. You can, and likely will, be charged, and the details will be hashed out in court. And yes, this has been brought up before with regards to OLL/bullet buttons. Back in the day, many of us carried the DOJ interpretation of the BB and OLL details, just in case.
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Old 05-15-2019, 6:04 PM
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Le really doesn't give a **** what you have printed. If they have already determined that they are going to arrest you and/or seize your firearms no documentation is going to change it. It will be up to you to fight it in court
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Old 05-15-2019, 6:49 PM
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'CA Gun Laws for Dummies' is effectively impossible.

Too many provisions, spread out among parts of Penal Code and in some other codes.

Anything simpler than C D Michel's California Gun Laws will be incomplete or misleading. You can use that info to inform your own behaviors.

And, as noted, LE will arrest (or not) without reference to any documentation offered by the potential arrestee.
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There is no value at all complaining or analyzing or reading tea leaves to decide what these bills really mean or actually do; any bill with a chance to pass will be bad for gun owners.

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Old 05-15-2019, 8:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by repoman1984 View Post

Basically firearms law for dummies, for LE
Make sure you put that on the cover page in big bold print. I'm 100% positive that will impress them.
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Old 05-16-2019, 7:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by repoman1984 View Post
Basically firearms law for dummies, for LE Good idea? bad idea?
I keep a small binder with AW reg, determination letters, latest rulings, etc. That's for my own records/info and in the unlikely event a range questions my RAW configs.

What you suggest likely wouldn't improve an outcome with LEO.
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Old 05-16-2019, 7:11 AM
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I can see a different benefit to doing so; to help your family if you pass away unexpectedly. I wouldn’t want my descendants to put an AR pistol upper on a rifle lower and get caught at the range.
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Old 05-16-2019, 7:12 AM
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Do yourself a favor.

Check out some youtube videos on “sovereign citizens”. Those are the guys who dont think they need driver licenses.

Those videos almost always feature some guy trying to hand the police papers, cases, etc.

Cops generally arent interested in whatever papers you have prepared, particularly if it contradicts what they have decided they are going to do.
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Old 05-16-2019, 7:23 AM
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Sweet, are you going to write a manifesto as well??
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Old 05-16-2019, 7:59 AM
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I carry a printed out copy of the CA gun laws in my range bag. It's good reading in the campground porta-potty.
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Old 05-16-2019, 8:12 AM
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I carry a printed out copy of the CA gun laws in my range bag. It's good reading in the campground porta-potty.
I think it would hold a secondary use there too, just in case.
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Old 05-16-2019, 8:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Librarian View Post
'CA Gun Laws for Dummies' is effectively impossible.

Too many provisions, spread out among parts of Penal Code and in some other codes.

Anything simpler than C D Michel's California Gun Laws will be incomplete or misleading. You can use that info to inform your own behaviors.

And, as noted, LE will arrest (or not) without reference to any documentation offered by the potential arrestee.
I agree. I recommend the C D Michel book. The latest edition is an awesome resource. I have had several friends who are firearm owners, they hear and at times believe FUD until I hand them the book.
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Old 05-16-2019, 10:13 AM
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Well it seems like the answer is a resounding "will not help you", would it change anyone's opinion if I have it on good authority LAPD detectives stood around and scratched their heads staring at a ruger 10/22 asking each-other what the minimal OAL laws were in ca?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Citadelgrad87 View Post
Do yourself a favor.

Check out some youtube videos on “sovereign citizens”. Those are the guys who dont think they need driver licenses.

Those videos almost always feature some guy trying to hand the police papers, cases, etc.

Cops generally arent interested in whatever papers you have prepared, particularly if it contradicts what they have decided they are going to do.

about 6 months ago I posted a sovereign citizen "greatest hits" video, I know you saw it you quoted my post. They're referencing made up or outdated legal documents, the paperwork I would be suggesting would be issued by the DOJ as recently as "magazine freedom week". Not to mention they go out looking for trouble similar to the open carry folks, the proposed documents accompany firearms stored in a locked container.
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Old 05-16-2019, 10:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by repoman1984 View Post
Well it seems like the answer is a resounding "will not help you", would it change anyone's opinion if I have it on good authority LAPD detectives stood around and scratched their heads staring at a ruger 10/22 asking each-other what the minimal OAL laws were in ca?




about 6 months ago I posted a sovereign citizen "greatest hits" video, I know you saw it you quoted my post. They're referencing made up or outdated legal documents, the paperwork I would be suggesting would be issued by the DOJ as recently as "magazine freedom week". Not to mention they go out looking for trouble similar to the open carry folks, the proposed documents accompany firearms stored in a locked container.
Please don't mistake my intent.

I am not comparing your mindset to those idiots.

I am comparing those cops to the cops likely to be giving you grief.

They are NOT taking the time to even decide whether the documents are controlling, new, old, or fake, rather, they simply are not interested in the documents at all.
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Old 05-16-2019, 10:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Citadelgrad87 View Post
Please don't mistake my intent.

I am not comparing your mindset to those idiots.

I am comparing those cops to the cops likely to be giving you grief.

They are NOT taking the time to even decide whether the documents are controlling, new, old, or fake, rather, they simply are not interested in the documents at all.
No, I understand what you're saying. The Sc idiots start off verbally referencing documents issued by governing bodies most LE have never heard of where as the CA DOJ is recognized by LE to more or less be the law of the land.

Once again I have it on good authority detectives of LAPD looked at a very scary ruger 10/22 and tried to figure out if it was indeed legal OAL. LASD actually canceled an eviction I was part of due to the tenant producing a letter from a judge effectively staying the eviction after a previous judge signed the eviction. The property owner happened to be former federal LE a US marshal IIRC we both stared at each-other wondering WTF LASD was doing refusing to serve an eviction order signed by a judge.
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Old 05-17-2019, 10:20 AM
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Originally Posted by repoman1984 View Post
Well it seems like the answer is a resounding "will not help you", would it change anyone's opinion if I have it on good authority LAPD detectives stood around and scratched their heads staring at a ruger 10/22 asking each-other what the minimal OAL laws were in ca?
Did it help when the owner of the gun asserted it was legal? Field officers have code books, supervisors, radios and computers in the field. They’re uninterested in the suspect’s opinion of whether the suspect has broken a law.
Suspect: “No, Sir, Officer, that isn’t my kilo of heroin in my car.”
Officer: “My apologies, please, be on your way.”
You, however, will provide a compendium of everything you think is legal, and hope that you understand every part of it and that your equipment complies. You will also need to make sure you keep everything updated with code changes, local restrictions and emerging case law.

They still won’t care, because they got it from you, and there’s no assurance that you haven’t edited it to your advantage.

When they take your guns, they’ll take your literature...you offered “Exhibit A”...a written record of your purported knowledge. Then, they can compare your knowledge with your guns and current case law and find disconnects between what you “know” is legal and what you have.

You may as well waive Miranda and start writing your confession.

I would think it would be better to offer as little as possible at the point of contact. I subscribe to K.I.S.S..”Keep It Simple, Stupid.”

As an example, i retain a copy of the manufacturer’s literature stating the muzzle devices on my guns are muzzle devices. I don’t keep handy the regulatory definition of “flash hider”.

Best.
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Old 05-17-2019, 10:57 AM
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Did it help when the owner of the gun asserted it was legal? Field officers have code books, supervisors, radios and computers in the field. They’re uninterested in the suspect’s opinion of whether the suspect has broken a law.
Suspect: “No, Sir, Officer, that isn’t my kilo of heroin in my car.”
Officer: “My apologies, please, be on your way.”
You, however, will provide a compendium of everything you think is legal, and hope that you understand every part of it and that your equipment complies. You will also need to make sure you keep everything updated with code changes, local restrictions and emerging case law.

They still won’t care, because they got it from you, and there’s no assurance that you haven’t edited it to your advantage.

When they take your guns, they’ll take your literature...you offered “Exhibit A”...a written record of your purported knowledge. Then, they can compare your knowledge with your guns and current case law and find disconnects between what you “know” is legal and what you have.

You may as well waive Miranda and start writing your confession.

I would think it would be better to offer as little as possible at the point of contact. I subscribe to K.I.S.S..”Keep It Simple, Stupid.”

As an example, i retain a copy of the manufacturer’s literature stating the muzzle devices on my guns are muzzle devices. I don’t keep handy the regulatory definition of “flash hider”.

Best.
The IO did specifically question the owner of the ruger 10/22 about what CA OAL standard were and then referenced the the rifle in question, asking the owner what the OAL of the rifle in the owners possession was, the owner knew the rifle was legal OAL and the was DOJ compliant but refused to comment citing the 5th. The IO left the rifle after much head scratching but took a few other firearms, all were returned months later with minor scratches and handling marks. The reason I tell this story constantly is the IO was a rank detective 3 of the gun/gang unit with 30+ years in the dept. not some patrol officer. Now maybe things have changed but, the story still baffles me and everyone claims I'm making this up for fud's sake if I didn't know the owner I probably wouldn't believe it myself.

The idea would not be to reference any firearms in possession, it would be to retain a collection of documents as to why the firearms in similar configuration have not violated DOJ/ATF. Part of it would be like you said manufactures literature demonstrating intended purposes IE this is pistol brace not a stock its sold as such and intended as such and here's a copy of the ATF letter referencing it.
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