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Survival and Preparations Long and short term survival and 'prepping'.

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  #1  
Old 03-14-2014, 2:02 PM
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Default Noah, the first prepper!?

Maybe the first recorded or first prepper we can put a name to?

This is also assuming he in fact exists in the first place. Don't comment on the religious aspect of this, not the purpose of the post.

Saw the trailer for the new movie and I was like... "honey we need a boat in case of global flooding..."

Anyone else have the same thought? Might be a good excuse to purchase a large boat.
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Old 03-14-2014, 2:39 PM
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I don't think you are clear on the meaning of the word "prepper"

following orders != prepping
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Old 03-14-2014, 2:56 PM
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A boat needs a harbor. And a harbor is not safe during a tidal wave (tsunami).

If you live downstream from a major dam, then a flood could wash you away anytime.

Also, if you live in lowlands around a river drainage, this could also happen anytime.

An approaching hurricane can also bring flooding, but you can run from that if you leave early enough.

Although it is plausible that many things written in the Bible are indeed historic, you must remember that it all started with Moses (Moshe in Hebrew) around 1200 B.C.E. which is approximately the same as the Trojan War in ancient Greece.

A classic example of the likely validity of the Bible is the issue of the Hittites. For centuries, archaeology knew of no people like the Hittites, even though they were mentioned in the Bible. Then one day not long ago archaeology finally discovered them.

Moses was writing a narrative of his own regarding what had gone before, during the previous 3 millennia. We don't know where Moses got his material from.

The Epic of Gilgamesh mentions a great flood in Mesopotamia around 2200 B.C.E. That would have been 800 years before Moses. He might have been referring to that.

There is not enough water on the Earth to flood all of it at the same time. Local flooding is possible anywhere however, or everywhere in a succession of storms.

I am prepped and ready to bug out, with mobility for up to 800 miles (40 gallons of gasoline at 20 mpg), or to shelter in place for several months. Everyone should be. No boat however.

Last edited by hks95134; 03-14-2014 at 3:00 PM..
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Old 03-14-2014, 3:09 PM
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Originally Posted by hks95134 View Post
A boat needs a harbor. And a harbor is not safe during a tidal wave (tsunami).

If you live downstream from a major dam, then a flood could wash you away anytime.

Also, if you live in lowlands around a river drainage, this could also happen anytime.

An approaching hurricane can also bring flooding, but you can run from that if you leave early enough.

Although it is plausible that many things written in the Bible are indeed historic, you must remember that it all started with Moses (Moshe in Hebrew) around 1200 B.C.E. which is approximately the same as the Trojan War in ancient Greece.

A classic example of the likely validity of the Bible is the issue of the Hittites. For centuries, archaeology knew of no people like the Hittites, even though they were mentioned in the Bible. Then one day not long ago archaeology finally discovered them.

Moses was writing a narrative of his own regarding what had gone before, during the previous 3 millennia. We don't know where Moses got his material from.

The Epic of Gilgamesh mentions a great flood in Mesopotamia around 2200 B.C.E. That would have been 800 years before Moses. He might have been referring to that.

There is not enough water on the Earth to flood all of it at the same time. Local flooding is possible anywhere however, or everywhere in a succession of storms.

I am prepped and ready to bug out, with mobility for up to 800 miles (40 gallons of gasoline at 20 mpg), or to shelter in place for several months. Everyone should be. No boat however.
It could have really been a localized flooding, that to Noah covered the known world.

Overall, good info thanks. Hadn't really considered getting a boat or how it would work when you would need to use it.
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Old 03-14-2014, 3:11 PM
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It could have really been a localized flooding, that to Noah covered the known world.
Overall, good info thanks. Hadn't really considered getting a boat or how it would work when you would need to use it.
This exactly!
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Old 03-14-2014, 3:14 PM
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Originally Posted by speedrrracer View Post
I don't think you are clear on the meaning of the word "prepper"

following orders != prepping
What is your definition of prepping? It is not to be prepared?

Just because you are following orders, doesn't mean you can't also be prepping.
But by that same definition does that mean that all soldiers are also preppers?
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Old 03-14-2014, 3:29 PM
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Originally Posted by jerhyn View Post
What is your definition of prepping? It is not to be prepared?

Just because you are following orders, doesn't mean you can't also be prepping.
But by that same definition does that mean that all soldiers are also preppers?
To prepare is to improve one's chances to deal with risk, adversity and uncertainty, sure

But omniscience kinda precludes those things, dont you think?
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Old 03-14-2014, 4:09 PM
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Two of each animal. Not sure if that was the wisest way to go. I would have ditched the ones that weren't really edible and gotten more of the ones that were...
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Old 03-14-2014, 4:15 PM
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For the purposes of Prepping:
If you believe the Bible, there will never be a global flood again.
If you don't believe the Bible, there will never be a global flood again.

Personal Beliefs:
This type of erosion pattern is not possible unless the whole area you see was covered in water.
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Old 03-14-2014, 4:20 PM
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Originally Posted by thenodnarb View Post
...Personal Beliefs:
This type of erosion pattern is not possible unless the whole area you see was covered in water.
When I look at this, I see what resembles the bottom of the ocean from deep sea scuba diving.

What you have is lava plumes forming the granite mountains/plateaus, then being worn away by wind and weather, as the rock crumbles into sand and soil. Same as seamounts on the ocean floor.

Not flooding.
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Old 03-14-2014, 4:21 PM
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Originally Posted by neouser View Post
Two of each animal. Not sure if that was the wisest way to go. I would have ditched the ones that weren't really edible and gotten more of the ones that were...
No kitties then ???
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Old 03-14-2014, 4:26 PM
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Originally Posted by hks95134 View Post
When I look at this, I see what resembles the bottom of the ocean from deep sea scuba diving.

What you have is lava plumes forming the granite mountains/plateaus, then being worn away by wind and weather, as the rock crumbles into sand and soil. Same as seamounts on the ocean floor.

Not flooding.
k.

Not looking to hijack OP's thread so...
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Old 03-14-2014, 6:58 PM
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Probably the first two things on Noah's Prep List were some shovels and jugs of good wine.


Wait.........did they have shovels back then?

It should be an interesting movie.
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Old 03-14-2014, 8:16 PM
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Noah was prepper. His reasons are not important.

... neither are yours ...
... neither are mine ...
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Old 03-14-2014, 8:34 PM
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Originally Posted by neouser View Post
Two of each animal. Not sure if that was the wisest way to go. I would have ditched the ones that weren't really edible and gotten more of the ones that were...
I think he got all the animals to fit by loading the carnivores first and then the herbivore species that went extinct.
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Old 03-15-2014, 3:02 PM
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Two of each animal. Not sure if that was the wisest way to go. I would have ditched the ones that weren't really edible and gotten more of the ones that were...
You are assuming Noah ate meat. It wasn't until AFTER the flood that Noah & his family (the only survivors of the flood) were given permission by God to hunt & eat animals (Gen. 9:2,3).

He didn't even know which ones would taste good

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Probably the first two things on Noah's Prep List were some shovels and jugs of good wine.


Wait.........did they have shovels back then?

It should be an interesting movie.
If he had the tools to build an Ark.. I would assume they had something resembling a shovel.
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Old 03-17-2014, 11:22 PM
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lol the noah story is a perfect story of prepers and non prepers. Hint all nonprepers die lol Joking aside it does serve as a good story to be prepared exspecially when you know its gonna happen. On a factual note if the flood wasnt global as the Bible states then by defination the Bible is false and the God of that book is fake. That said the main arugument is that it coulnd't happen beause there is not enough water on the earth to flood the whole earth. The two main problems with that the water could have just gone back into the earth as it did come from the deep and two that it is assumed that the earth is the same as it was then. Neither of those points are adressed by any argument I have ever listened to. Besides how do you explain the sea life level in the dirt found every where lol that said the Bible says go prep lol
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Old 03-18-2014, 6:40 AM
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^ My last post in the OT forum before I was banned, permanently apparently, was in a thread entitled "Do you believe in God?". I made an off-hand comment about aliens. Just saying ...
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Old 03-18-2014, 9:58 AM
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On a factual note if the flood wasnt global as the Bible states then by defination the Bible is false and the God of that book is fake.
It means the Bible has false information in it. That's no big revelation as it has plenty of false, contradictory, incorrect information. It doesn't mean the ENTIRE book is false. Which in turn, doesn't mean the god of that book is fake. (Falsum in uno, falsum in omnibus)

It also sounds as if you're implying the following:
(Premise 1)If the Flood didn't happen, then that would mean God doesn't exist(or the bible is fallible).
(Premise 2)But God does exist(or the bible is infallible).
(Conclusion) So the Flood must have happened.

But Premise 1 is clearly incorrect and you've only asserted Premise 2.

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That said the main arugument is that it coulnd't happen beause there is not enough water on the earth to flood the whole earth. The two main problems with that the water could have just gone back into the earth as it did come from the deep
I think the main argument against the flood is that there isn't any reliable evidence for it. If you believe that hidden water came from deep inside the earth and returned there, the onus would be on you to prove that it is probable or even possible.

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..and two that it is assumed that the earth is the same as it was then. Neither of those points are adressed by any argument I have ever listened to.
If you're claiming that the Earth was different back then and implying there was more water available or something else entirely, these are all additional claims you'd have to justify.
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Old 03-18-2014, 10:08 AM
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I agree with speedrrracer. Noah was informed of a flood and started "reacting". I don't think that's what being prepared is all about.

The equivalent today would be if scientists informed you that some natural disaster was coming and you ran out and started buying supplies with everyone else.

To be fair though, it would be more similar to a scientist telling ONLY you that a natural disaster was coming and then no one believing YOU when you told them. This is beneficial for you because there is no demand for supplies.

If God had told EVERYONE that a flood was coming and everyone started fighting for supplies and wood, etc. - The man that already had a boat and supplies ready would be the one who was prepared.
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Old 03-18-2014, 10:38 AM
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^ Incorrect. You prep (or not) based on the information available. That could come directly from God, scholarly journals, cable news channels, people you trust, random blogs or the voices in your head. No ones ever "knows" any future event, not even Noah, in any absolute metaphysical sense.
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Old 03-18-2014, 11:06 AM
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Originally Posted by lasbrg View Post
^ Incorrect. You prep (or not) based on the information available. That could come directly from God, scholarly journals, cable news channels, people you trust, random blogs or the voices in your head. No ones ever "knows" any future event, not even Noah, in any absolute metaphysical sense.
So would I be considered prepared if I do nothing until information from the news tells me a hurricane is approaching and I run out to buy supplies?

I think it really just boils down to what we consider the meaning of a "prepper". If someone who drives to Safeway and successfully buys food and water when they find out a natural disaster will hit in 24 hours is a "prepper", then I'd agree Noah was too.

Last edited by devious21; 03-18-2014 at 11:14 AM..
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Old 03-18-2014, 11:18 AM
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So would I be considered prepared if I do nothing until information from the news tells me a hurricane is approaching and I run out to buy supplies?
^ No. I don't understand the question.

The great thing about the flood story in Genesis is that we can all consider ourselves "like Noah", in that, we have reasons to believe some disaster will occur that we need to prepare for. Our information may not have come from such an unimpeachable source as the mouth of God himself, but our respective sources may still be quite strong. And even Noah didn't "know" that there would be a flood; if he did, then he would have been some sort of deity himself and not a regular man. We are all operating on faith, of one type or another.

Edit: Response to edit above.

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Originally Posted by devious21 View Post
I think it really just boils down to what we consider the meaning of a "prepper". If someone who drives to Safeway and successfully buys food and water when they find out a natural disaster will hit in 24 hours is a "prepper", then I'd agree Noah was too.
Are you talking about the timing or the surety of knowledge? If the former, Noah did his ark prepping way in advance of the flood itself. If the latter, is the claim that God offered Noah a vision of the flood, comparable to satellite images we have now? I haven't read Genesis recently, but I don't believe that was the case. Noah was not given any mystical knowledge, as I recall.

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Old 03-18-2014, 11:46 AM
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^ No. I don't understand the question.
My point was, are you considered "prepared" for a disaster if in the end, you managed to acquire the necessary supplies?

For example, lets say the local supermarket had enough supplies for everyone in the town. You had zero planning but then during a massive blackout, you walked down to the store and bought all the supplies you needed to last you 2 weeks.

Were you prepared because you had the supplies you need to thrive in the disaster regardless of how you came by them? If someone else handed you all your supplies, are you still considered prepared?

If prepared means that you had the supplies to survive, then I agree Noah was a "prepper". I think being "prepared" normally implies some amount of forethought, risk assessment and planning the way "prepper" is normally used.

God literally commanded Noah to build a boat and gave him the dimensions in which to build it.

He didn't go "There may be water coming. Do what you need to do...". He literally said to him:

“I am going to put an end to all people... So make yourself an ark of cypress wood; make rooms in it and coat it with pitch inside and out. This is how you are to build it: The ark is to be three hundred cubits long, fifty cubits wide and thirty cubits high. Make a roof for it, leaving below the roof an opening one cubit"

I think it's the equivalent of a father instructing a son run to the store to pick up water and then saying that the son was prepared, instead of the father.

Genesis 6:22 - "Noah did everything just as God commanded him."

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Old 03-18-2014, 12:17 PM
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Genesis 6:13

Quote:
Then God said to Noah, "The end of all flesh has come before Me; for the earth is filled with violence because of them; and behold, I am about to destroy them with the earth.
Genesis 6:14 through 6:21 is mostly instructions, then

Genesis 6:22

Quote:
Thus Noah did; according to all that God had commanded him, so he did.
Hebrews 11:7, in the New Testament, argues explicitly that Noah acted out of faith (and not out of knowledge).

Quote:
By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that is in keeping with faith.
A Christian interpretation of the flood story would be that Noah acted out of belief, not knowledge. Others may interpret God's "behold" as offering a vison, but I'll leave that to someone else to Google.
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Old 03-18-2014, 12:39 PM
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A Christian interpretation of the flood story would be that Noah acted out of belief, not knowledge. Others may interpret God's "behold" as offering a vison, but I'll leave that to someone else to Google.
I guess I would say that it was belief or knowledge in God though and not of an impending disaster.

For example. God commanded you to built an Ark because he was going to "destroy the earth". Let's say you weren't certain that God would follow through with his threat. But because you had belief or faith in God, you did as you were instructed. If God tells you to do something, even if he's lying or misleading you (aka Abraham), you still do it because you believe God is real and you still fear him regardless (...in holy fear built an ark to save his family).

I don't think it really has anything to do with preparedness. It has to do with Belief and Faith in God when everyone around you is doubting you and testing your faith.

You could look at this as a story of why it's good to be prepared but I'd be hard pressed to say Noah had the attributes of what we'd consider a "prepper".

Last edited by devious21; 03-18-2014 at 12:50 PM..
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Old 03-18-2014, 12:50 PM
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My point was, are you considered "prepared" for a disaster if in the end, you managed to acquire the necessary supplies?
Trick question?

Quote:
For example, lets say the local supermarket had enough supplies for everyone in the town. You had zero planning but then during a massive blackout, you walked down to the store and bought all the supplies you needed to last you 2 weeks.

Were you prepared because you had the supplies you need to thrive in the disaster regardless of how you came by them? If someone else handed you all your supplies, are you still considered prepared?

If prepared means that you had the supplies to survive, then I agree Noah was a "prepper". I think being "prepared" normally implies some amount of forethought, risk assessment and planning the way "prepper" is normally used.
Your own definition of "being prepared"? Being prepared is being prepared. Preparing is preparing. These are ordinary, English language words. In the context of this Survival and Preparations forum, "prepping" is preparing for a foreseen event well in advance of it's arrival.

Quote:
God literally commanded Noah to build a boat and gave him the dimensions in which to build it.

He didn't go "There may be water coming. Do what you need to do...". He literally said to him:

“I am going to put an end to all people... So make yourself an ark of cypress wood; make rooms in it and coat it with pitch inside and out. This is how you are to build it: The ark is to be three hundred cubits long, fifty cubits wide and thirty cubits high. Make a roof for it, leaving below the roof an opening one cubit"

I think it's the equivalent of a father instructing a son run to the store to pick up water and then saying that the son was prepared, instead of the father.

Genesis 6:22 - "Noah did everything just as God commanded him."
So you are not talking about either timing or knowledge, you are talking about following orders not being what you call "prepping". But this is a false argument. I will include the Hebrews verse here since we were typing past each other:

Quote:
"By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that is in keeping with faith." - Hebrews 11:7
At least a New Testament author agrees with me. Noah wasn't compelled to obey God the way a son is compelled to obey his father. Noah believed that there would be a flood, and acted accordingly. That's prepping. So why bother with the "two of every animal" instruction, since it had no obvious survival advantage for him or his family? It was part and parcel of his faith in God and belief that God knew what he was talking about and that God was asking him to do this for a reason. He didn't have to collect two of every animal, but he did it anyway. That was what made him "righteous" and worth saving.
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Old 03-18-2014, 1:00 PM
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You could look at this as a story of why it's good to be prepared but I'd be hard pressed to say Noah had the attributes of what we'd consider a "prepper".
A new avenue of discussion; the "attributes" of a prepper. Since I don't know what these "attributes" are, I guess I have nothing to add here. My argument is a fairly simple "Noah prepared ergo Noah was a prepper". We agree to disagree.
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Old 03-18-2014, 1:19 PM
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Trick question?
No. I'm trying confirm if "being a prepper" to you simply means having the necessary supplies during a disaster. If I hand my son supplies, is he a "prepper" because he is now prepared? If the answer is yes, than I agree with you.

If "being a prepper" to you carries no connotation of assessment of risk or planning and really just means "acquires supplies for a disaster" then we can agree.


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Originally Posted by lasbrg View Post
Your own definition of "being prepared"? Being prepared is being prepared. Preparing is preparing. These are ordinary, English language words. In the context of this Survival and Preparations forum, "prepping" is preparing for a foreseen event well in advance of it's arrival.
When trying to clarify the definitions of "prepper" and "prepared" it doesn't help to use them to define themselves.

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So why bother with the "two of every animal" instruction, since it had no obvious survival advantage for him or his family? It was part and parcel of his faith in God and belief that God knew what he was talking about and that God was asking him to do this for a reason. He didn't have to collect two of every animal, but he did it anyway. That was what made him "righteous" and worth saving.
That's kind of my point. He wasn't preparing for a disaster. He was simply following gods command. I think Hebrews confirms my point and coincidentally, Abraham is mentioned shortly after in the same vein.


Like I said - If being "a prepper" simply means having the supplies, then yes, Noah had supplies and me and you agree. But I think it normally implies preparing for unforeseen events, creating plans of action, etc. Some conscious behavior of survivalism as opposed to just following orders.
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Old 03-18-2014, 1:29 PM
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Originally Posted by lasbrg View Post
A new avenue of discussion; the "attributes" of a prepper. Since I don't know what these "attributes" are, I guess I have nothing to add here. My argument is a fairly simple "Noah prepared ergo Noah was a prepper". We agree to disagree.
I believe we agree. If we say "Noah was prepared for the flood", that's a true statement. I think it accurately describes Noah.

When I look up "prepper" it's basically a synonym for "survivalist". People that plan and prepare for unforeseen, worst case scenarios. If that's what we're talking about, then I don't think Noah fits. No more than a son doing what he's told.
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Old 03-18-2014, 2:08 PM
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No. I'm trying confirm if "being a prepper" to you simply means having the necessary supplies during a disaster. If I hand my son supplies, is he a "prepper" because he is now prepared? If the answer is yes, than I agree with you.

If "being a prepper" to you carries no connotation of assessment of risk or planning and really just means "acquires supplies for a disaster" then we can agree.
I already answered this (English language meanings).

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When trying to clarify the definitions of "prepper" and "prepared" it doesn't help to use them to define themselves.
Except I didn't do that.

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That's kind of my point. He wasn't preparing for a disaster. He was simply following gods command. I think Hebrews confirms my point and coincidentally, Abraham is mentioned shortly after in the same vein.
How does the Hebrews verse confirm your point? It's 180 degrees opposed to your point. Here it is again (for a third time):

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hebrews 11:7
By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that is in keeping with faith.
The Hebrews verse even says "holy fear" to emphasize that Noah was not some automata.

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Like I said - If being "a prepper" simply means having the supplies, then yes, Noah had supplies and me and you agree. But I think it normally implies preparing for unforeseen events, creating plans of action, etc. Some conscious behavior of survivalism as opposed to just following orders.
Say what? What supplies did Noah have?

Before you talked "attributes of a prepper". Not you say "conscious behavior of survivalism". True, Noah was not exclusively concerned with his own survival, but so what? You think that being a prepper requires you to not care about other people or other things?

Quote:
Originally Posted by devious21
When I look up "prepper" it's basically a synonym for "survivalist". People that plan and prepare for unforeseen, worst case scenarios. If that's what we're talking about, then I don't think Noah fits. No more than a son doing what he's told.
Noah was NOT God's son. He did NOT have to obey God. He was not COMPELLED to obey God. Disobedience of God was normal for the era, which is what motivated God's (extreme) course of action. God selected Noah before he informed him of the flood. God knew Noah would obey, but Noah himself was a free agent. This is the key to my argument - we are all free agents. Noah was a free agent; we are free agents. We all act based on what we think is best. We may not all be as "righteous" as Noah, I know I'm not, but our actions are in other ways identical. We are taking steps to prepare for a threat, or threats, that the population as a whole does not perceive. Noah received some basic instructions, true, but we are also receiving some instructions, right? This forum, for example, and other sources. My own problem with most preppers is that they tend not to be especially imaginative (Noah again) and mostly parrot what they hear from other preppers.

If you insist on making a distinction between Noah and the rest of us preppers, I would say it would be in the scale of his preps and his relationship with God. Otherwise I see no other difference between what he did and what we are doing.
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Old 03-18-2014, 2:28 PM
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Getting to be an interesting argument. It should have posted.. give your definition of a prepper, sit back and watch the fireworks.

Let's look at it from this point, including the post "Encouraging others to be just a little prepared..."

Completely hypothetical...
I have a son living in LA. I told my son that he needs to be prepared for an earthquake. Give him instructions on what he should prep for in that situation. I in no way pay for his preps. He goes and listens, and does prep for an earthquake and follows my instructions.

Does this mean he is not a prepper?

Wikipedia lumps survivalist and preppers together. Read below.

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Survivalism is a movement of individuals or groups (called survivalists or preppers) who are actively preparing for emergencies, including possible disruptions in social or political order, on scales from local to international. Survivalists often acquire emergency medical and self-defense training, stockpile food and water, prepare to become self-sufficient, and build structures (e.g., a survival retreat or an underground shelter) that may help them survive a catastrophe.
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Old 03-18-2014, 2:32 PM
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Completely hypothetical...
I have a son living in LA. I told my son that he needs to be prepared for an earthquake. Give him instructions on what he should prep for in that situation. I in no way pay for his preps. He goes and listens, and does prep for an earthquake and follows my instructions.

Does this mean he is not a prepper?
+10000
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Old 03-18-2014, 2:38 PM
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Except I didn't do that.
I was mostly joking about that which is why I included the smiley. But I was referring to:
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Originally Posted by lasbrg View Post
Being prepared is being prepared. Preparing is preparing.
---


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Originally Posted by lasbrg View Post
How does the Hebrews verse confirm your point? It's 180 degrees opposed to your point. Here it is again (for a third time):

The Hebrews verse even says "holy fear" to emphasize that Noah was not some automata.
My point that you said (paraphrasing) "he didn't know for certain a flood was coming and had belief or faith". My point is that he had belief or faith in God (the flood was irrelevant) and did as he was commanded. He didn't KNOW if the God's threat was real but it's irrelevant because he believed "God exists and is commanding me to x,y,z".

I made the parallel to Abraham which is also an example of "holy fear" and which Hebrews mentioned shortly after the discussion of Noah.


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Originally Posted by lasbrg View Post
Say what? What supplies did Noah have?
??? A big *** (ol') boat and food for himself, his family and all the animals...

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Originally Posted by lasbrg View Post
Noah was NOT God's son. He did NOT have to obey God. He was not COMPELLED to obey God. Disobedience of God was normal for the era, which is what motivated God's (extreme) course of action. God selected Noah before he informed him of the flood. God knew Noah would obey, but Noah himself was a free agent. This is the key to my argument - we are all free agents. Noah was a free agent; we are free agents. We all act based on what we think is best. We may not all be as "righteous" as Noah, I know I'm not, but our actions are in other ways identical. We are taking steps to prepare for a threat, or threats, that the population as a whole does not perceive. Noah received some basic instructions, true, but we are also receiving some instructions, right? This forum, for example, and other sources. My own problem with most preppers is that they tend not to be especially imaginative (Noah again) and mostly parrot what they hear from other preppers.

If you insist on making a distinction between Noah and the rest of us preppers, I would say it would be in the scale of his preps and his relationship with God. Otherwise I see no other difference between what he did and what we are doing.

I disagree with some of this but the problem of omniscience and free will goes down a pretty deep rabbit hole that I don't believe is required to prove either of our points.

But let's put it this way. My son has free will. If I told him to run to the store and buy water, he's just following my orders. He has free will to disobey me, although he may fear punishment from me if he does so.

Assuming he uses his own free will to follow my orders, does that make him a "prepper"? He didn't decide what is necessary or why or take anything into consideration but he WILL be prepared when everything is said and done.

If you're answer to the bolded part is "Yes", we agree Noah is "a prepper" but we disagree on what "a prepper" typically is.
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Old 03-18-2014, 2:59 PM
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Originally Posted by jerhyn View Post
Completely hypothetical...
I have a son living in LA. I told my son that he needs to be prepared for an earthquake. Give him instructions on what he should prep for in that situation. I in no way pay for his preps. He goes and listens, and does prep for an earthquake and follows my instructions.

Does this mean he is not a prepper?

Wikipedia lumps survivalist and preppers together. Read below.
That's a good hypothetical.

One if the attributes I mentioned before is planning for unforeseen disasters. I think that sort of defines a survivalist. I think if you were just buying supplies for known disasters (aka hurricane's about to hit, go buy supplies), that's not typically what I'd consider a survivalist or "being prepared".

But let's say you called your son in L.A. and said "I'm mad at the government and I'm going to detonate a bomb in L.A. and the power will be out for weeks. Buy everything on this list and you will truly be considered my son and I'll be proud of you."

If your son follows your orders, does that make him a survivalist? For me, he would not really have any of the typical attributes of someone who knows survival skills, plans ahead (you planned ahead for him), learns first aid, etc.

He's kind of like a personal assistant really.

"Listen son, I'm going to take out the power in all of LA. I want you to build a cooler to these dimensions and put two of each of my steaks on ice and store enough ice to keep them cool for 3 days. Do this and I will truly love you."

He might not know if you're serious but he also may be afraid to have you show up to find he hadn't built the cooler...

Last edited by devious21; 03-18-2014 at 3:06 PM..
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Old 03-18-2014, 3:31 PM
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One if the attributes I mentioned before is planning for unforeseen disasters. I think that sort of defines a survivalist. I think if you were just buying supplies for known disasters (aka hurricane's about to hit, go buy supplies), that's not typically what I'd consider a survivalist or "being prepared".
Unforseen literally means, not expected. http://www.merriam-webster.com/thesaurus/unforeseen

I would argue you can't prepare for unforeseen disasters, because you don't know what you are preparing for. You can prepare in general for what might happen based on possible known disasters.

Forsee(n)
to see or become aware of (something that has not yet happened)
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/foresee

I would also argue that preppers prepare specifically for disasters that they do forsee happening to them. Case in point, look at my odds of disaster post. Many of the people who replied ignored the disasters they felt were not likely to happen to them, they ignored the unforseen events and focused on what they felt was likely to happen to them, the forseen events.

Noah forsaw or became aware of the great flood because god told him. He obeyed because it meant he could survive.

To really simplify it for me, a survivalist is someone who takes steps to ensure his survival. If Noah wasn't a prepper or survivalist, then he would not have taken steps to ensure his survival. Which means the boat was never made and filled with things to ensure the survival of himself and his family.
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Old 03-18-2014, 3:43 PM
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Unforseen literally means, not expected. http://www.merriam-webster.com/thesaurus/unforeseen

I would argue you can't prepare for unforeseen disasters, because you don't know what you are preparing for. You can prepare in general for what might happen based on possible known disasters.
I think you can prepare for things like not having access to food and clean water, not have an organised government or law in place, etc. without knowing how they will arise. Could be earthquake, blackout, flood etc. You may plan some specifics for as many as you can think of.

Reacting to a threat and following orders I think is something much different.

And as a previous poster said, bringing two or (14) of each animal wasn't to ensure his survival. He did so because he was commanded to.

I guess you could make the argument that he brought the animals to survive against God as God may simply murdered him for disobeying orders. But I don't think that's the argument you're trying to make.

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Originally Posted by jerhyn View Post
Noah forsaw or became aware of the great flood because god told him. He obeyed because it meant he could survive.
I think you'd have a hard time proving Noah's motivation. As mentioned, Hebrews mentions "holy fear". To me, that implies fear of disobeying God rather than fear of disaster.

If God said "Put animals on a boat to protect them and when I smite the world, you and yours will perish but be brought with me in Heaven for eternity..." - Do you think Noah would have defied God and started collecting food to hideaway on the boat?
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Old 03-19-2014, 6:37 AM
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I saw the trailer and thought the same thing.

I remember hearing in the trailer.. "When they come they will be many and desperate" or something like that.

Hard to practice OPSEC when you are building a massive Ark.

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Old 03-19-2014, 7:21 AM
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You are assuming Noah ate meat. It wasn't until AFTER the flood that Noah & his family (the only survivors of the flood) were given permission by God to hunt & eat animals (Gen. 9:2,3).

He didn't even know which ones would taste good



If he had the tools to build an Ark.. I would assume they had something resembling a shovel.
Actually, it is the first time that it is mentioned.......eating meat that is. Realistically, when God killed the first animals in Genisis to dress Adam and Eve in animal skins(Gen. 3:21), what do you think He did with the left overs? Left it to rot?
People in my church(mostly vegetarian) will argue that He used them for a sacrifice. But, reading the Bible(Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy) shows that the whole animal was not burned, but rather only the fat and organs was burned. The rest was cooked and eaten by the Priests.
Also, if man had not been eating meat prior to the Flood, he would not have known how to cook meat. But, it seems, since that is not mentioned, that they knew how to cook meat. Some theorize that the "Daughters of Men" cooked meat, and Noah(and family) were familiar with that, so knew what to do. But, that seems to imply that eating meat is sinful, since the "Daughters of Men" may be the dark side of mankind.
Also, it wasn't just 2 animals of each kind, it was 7 clean and 2 of unclean(Gen. 7).
If you want to argue whether or not Noah was a prepper by doing what he was told to do, be my guest.
However, the first really confirmed prepper would be Joseph in Egypt. Gen. 41. Pharaoh had a dream, Joseph interpreted it. There was no "command" to prepare, Just a dream of 7 fat cows and 7 skinny cows. Joseph's interpretation of that was there would be 7 good years and 7 bad years, so they(the Nation) neeeded to prepare.
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Old 03-21-2014, 12:14 AM
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It means the Bible has false information in it. That's no big revelation as it has plenty of false, contradictory, incorrect information. It doesn't mean the ENTIRE book is false. Which in turn, doesn't mean the god of that book is fake. (Falsum in uno, falsum in omnibus)

It also sounds as if you're implying the following:
(Premise 1)If the Flood didn't happen, then that would mean God doesn't exist(or the bible is fallible).
(Premise 2)But God does exist(or the bible is infallible).
(Conclusion) So the Flood must have happened.

But Premise 1 is clearly incorrect and you've only asserted Premise 2.



I think the main argument against the flood is that there isn't any reliable evidence for it. If you believe that hidden water came from deep inside the earth and returned there, the onus would be on you to prove that it is probable or even possible.



If you're claiming that the Earth was different back then and implying there was more water available or something else entirely, these are all additional claims you'd have to justify.
The way the Bible works is that from its own perspective is that it is the divine revelation of reality and of God. aka "all scripture is God breathed" 2 Tim 3:16 which means God said it. The point there was if it didnt happen then that means that the Bible then is falliable and by its own definitionit cannot be falliable. If it is fallible then it is not devine and that means that the God of that reliion doesnt add up to its own religouse account which means its false. I am not contesting that the Bible is false im just pointing out the probelm that you cant have it both ways.

The second and seperat points as to the possible things such as the receading of the water and the earth being differant was possibilites as to why it might seem that there is not enough water to flood the whole earth. As to evidance that the earth was differant in the past there are tones of it. You have the tectonic plates which cause mountains to rise the earth was much flatter in the past, also there is the problems of all the contenats fitting together. Also if the earth was fully flooded it would cause a ton of changes to the earth.

There is a ton of evidance as all ancient cultures have a flood story which would be obviouse if every culture is descended from the family of Noah as the Bible contends. Also as stated before you have the near universal layer of marine biology sedimant in the ground which simply means the whole earth was flooded at one point. Those two points of evidence is strong enough on their own to contend that the whole earth was flooded. The main argument against the stroy is a lack of mesurable water to flood the earth but it assumes that earth is the same now as it was then also they never mesure any loss of water into space from astroids or any of the water in the earth aka aquifers they only mesure the oceans. They also dont even mesure the ice sheats.

The implications intelectually are simple if the Noah story is true then there is a God but if its false there is no God of the Bible. Since most of the proponets of the Flood are atheist (the scietists that is) they cannot accept the Flood as fact as it raises moral issues for themselves. Take it or leave it but either its true or its not in which case either have serouse applications.
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