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  #1  
Old 05-04-2017, 2:42 PM
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Default HUGE DOJ overstep, need advice for a customer

We have stumbled upon what we believe is a huge overstep of the DOJ. Here are the facts surrounding the transaction. Please let us know what you think, if we are right or wrong, if the customer should lawyer up or if this would be a case that Calguns would like to fight.

April 19, 2017
John Doe customer who is a 03FFL holder and COE holder purchased a C&R eligible pistol, the DROS was checked 1 in 30 exempt (automatically from the DES when you enter in that he is also waiting period exempt) Customer fills out the DROS checks the preview page and signs and thumbprints both the "pending" page and "delivered" page at the same time. NOTE: Approval pages will not be available until 10-24 hour periods after submission and we are required to print those again and keep with the DROS packet. John Doe takes possession of the firearm and goes about his way. (no 4473 required as he is a licensee)

April 21, 2017
Same customer John Doe comes into the store to DROS a modern pistol. We ask him 3 times if he has purchased any modern pistols within the last 30 days and he says no. He DOES NOT purchase firearms anywhere else, according to him, and we have no reason to doubt this. He's a frequent buyer of C&R stuff online and comes here to do the DROS. He completes the application to purchase, 4473, FSC card, ID and proof of residency. He leaves and goes about his way.

April 25, 2017
We received a 1 in 30 violation for the customer. We contacted the customer who verified in fact he has NOT purchased ANY modern pistols for some time now. We take it for what it is and figure he just made a mistake and forgot or possibly DROS'd a C&R elsewhere and that FFL did not run it as 1-30 exempt.

May 4, 2017
He contacts us again regarding the issue and to discuss the earliest possible time to come in and redo is DROS for his modern pistol, we tell him no earlier than May 25, 2017 - 31 days after the application to purchase was made. He reiterates that he should not have been rejected and that he had not purchased any modern pistols in the last 31+ days. Our records show that the last time this customer purchased a modern pistol was on September 9, 2016. And this correlates with his story about not purchasing any modern handguns in about 6 months.

We called the DES Hotline and asked for somebody who can let us know why he was rejected. Their first comment was "well you didn't check the 1 in 30 exemption on the modern pistol DROS. We tell them 'why would we? This transaction is NOT 1 in 30 exempt the previous transaction is exempt and was properly checked'

After being placed on hold for 5 minutes they come back on the phone and tell us that he was rejected because the law reads he cant make and application to purchase more than 1 handgun every 30 days and the previous transaction counts as an application to purchase. We disagree and end the conversation.
We now try calling compliance and try to speak with somebody different for clarification, and end up getting the same person. We are told that the law reads they're only allowed to make application to purchase 1 every 30 days and that's that.

What are we missing here? It's our opinion that C&R pistols that are purchased by an 03 License holder with a valid COE is exempt from the 1 in 30laws. How does the previous application of a 1 in 30 exempt transaction effect the eligibility of the application on April 21, 2017.

Furthermore, for example, by their reasoning would somebody who purchases a 1 in 30 exempt handgun on a PPT then purchased a handgun from a dealer be rejected on the 2nd purchase for a 1 in 30 violation? This is essentially what they told us today on the phone. How is the 03 holder with a COE any different? To us based on their reasoning ANY secondary application should be rejected because in their opinion the law states no more than 1 application every 30 days. Would not a PPT, Pawn Redemption or Consignment return be an application in the eyes of the law? Are these now considered by the DOJ to effect the eligibility of future handgun purchases?

We have contacted the customer and told them all this information and have advised them to speak about the matter with a reputable attorney here on Calguns. I will be happy to speak with any attorney who takes up the matter with permission from the applicant should there be a case here and we are in fact correct that this should not have been a 1 in 30 rejection.
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  #2  
Old 05-04-2017, 2:49 PM
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That's effed up. Something wacky going on over at doj

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Old 05-04-2017, 2:51 PM
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This is why we would like to have somebody who is willing to take up the case or at minimum discuss it with us. This is a clear violation of how the law reads. Not to mention this customer's rights are being violated for an additional 21 days past the DROS date of the 24th by making him wait to submit another application to purchase. The DOJ has also infringed upon my business by forcing us to lose money in employee time, ink, paper by resubmitting this DROS when they deem he is eligible again. This would not be something we would charge the customer for other than the $25 DROS fee that the DOJ will charge us for submitting his DROS after the 30th day.

Furthermore if an attorney is willing to take up this case I have no issue being named as a plaintiff in the case also. I believe strongly that this is a vast overreach of the DOJ and they are making up regulations based on their opinions again and not what the law reads. If anybody who is reading this thread knows of any attorney who would like to discuss this with me our phone number is listed in our signature tag along with our email address. Please share this thread with anybody who may help in this matter.
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Last edited by acespawnshop; 05-04-2017 at 3:01 PM..
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  #4  
Old 05-05-2017, 9:50 AM
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I had a case where a customer bought a firearm which was 1 in 30 exempt, then bought a gun from me. I got a call about it. It turns out that the DROS people at the DOJ can't see the 1 in 30 exemption.

In this case it sounds like you either got idiots or they are actively trying to cause problems.

Based on the actual CA PC, a person who has a C&R FFL and COE is exempt from the 1 in 30 even for modern firearms. I have heard in the past that the DOJ has backed down when they call asking the FFL if it ok to cancel the DROS. They play word games and if there is no objection they get away with it.

I have also heard that they are playing games with the days and that even if the DROS is canceled, it was still submitted and the 30 days start from there. There has also been issues with their not properly recording the time when the time changes, so they can be an hour off.
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Old 05-05-2017, 9:57 AM
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In this case the DOJ cancelled the DROS and THEN called us. Once we looked into it we realized there was no 1 in 30 violation.
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  #6  
Old 05-05-2017, 10:24 AM
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I suspect that the person at the DOJ does not want to admit that they are wrong. They hate refunds and corrections.
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  #7  
Old 05-21-2017, 7:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
I suspect that the person at the DOJ does not want to admit that they are wrong. They hate refunds and corrections.
They are also not a friend of the California gun owner or FFL. It's and adversarial relationship.
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  #8  
Old 05-21-2017, 8:04 AM
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They are also not a friend of the California gun owner or FFL. It's and adversarial relationship.
It really depends on the person. Some are really helpful. You can't generalize all of them.
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Old 05-21-2017, 8:20 AM
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tagged for outcome; weird situation
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Old 05-21-2017, 8:27 AM
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I do not deal with the DOJ but often deal with similar Government agencies. First step is to ask them to put it in writing.

Often they can not issue a written opinion binding their agency without getting it cleared up the chain if command.


In many cases they back off at that point because admitting to you they were wrong is better then admitting it to their chain of command. Or they will get educated by their supervisor when they ask him to review their letter.
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Old 05-21-2017, 8:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
It really depends on the person. Some are really helpful. You can't generalize all of them.
Person to person, I will agree. But as a government agency, no, they are very hostile toward the California gun owner. They will obey their masters. And the majority of the Rulers of California hate guns and gun owners. Gun owners are the enemy.
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  #12  
Old 05-21-2017, 8:54 AM
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In the past, FFLs were not exempt from the waiting period, but that has changed, why?

Don't demonize all of them. Many of the top people are bad, but not everyone. When they get treated badly as your attitude shows through, what do you think that the response will be, even from those who are pro-gun?
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  #13  
Old 05-23-2017, 4:11 PM
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I have had this exact situation happen and after explaining that the C&R handgun triggered a false 1 in 30 reject, they corrected the issue. I guess your mileage varies greatly dependent on which agent you talk to...
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Old 05-23-2017, 4:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddy's Shooting Sports View Post
I have had this exact situation happen and after explaining that the C&R handgun triggered a false 1 in 30 reject, they corrected the issue. I guess your mileage varies greatly dependent on which agent you talk to...
We went to bat for the customer on this one. We called compliance called the DES called anybody who would listen. They told us exactly what was said in the OP.

Sidebar- He came in yesterday on day 31 to dros it again.
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Old 05-23-2017, 5:37 PM
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Quite some time back I got a call about a 1 in 30 violation. I knew about the previous sale and called the FFL who processed it and it was marked 1 in 30 exempt. The person at the CA DOJ ended up dropping the claims since I told her that there was no violations. She told me that they, at the CA DOJ, can't see the marked box that it is 1 in 30 exempt.
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Old 05-23-2017, 8:15 PM
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They don't see the comments field. Which is why they call me every time I sell a gun to an H1B non-resident alien with a hunting license. I put the info in the comments, yet every time, they still call to enforce federal law...
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Old 05-24-2017, 12:09 PM
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Yeah, that is a bit funny, you can put in comments, but they can't see them, so what is the point? Well, it does document it on your copy of the DROS, so that is good.
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Old 06-18-2017, 9:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
Based on the actual CA PC, a person who has a C&R FFL and COE is exempt from the 1 in 30 even for modern firearms. I have heard in the past that the DOJ has backed down when they call asking the FFL if it ok to cancel the DROS. They play word games and if there is no objection they get away with it.

Has any FFL dealers in the past few months or so gotten a 1 in 30 purchase pushed through? I have my C&R FFL and COE and my local FFL dealer used to let me DROS two or more guns in the same month. But DOJ told him it is a no go and he does not do that any longer. I am just curious if anyone still does this?
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Old 06-18-2017, 10:00 AM
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Originally Posted by scout II View Post
Has any FFL dealers in the past few months or so gotten a 1 in 30 purchase pushed through? I have my C&R FFL and COE and my local FFL dealer used to let me DROS two or more guns in the same month. But DOJ told him it is a no go and he does not do that any longer. I am just curious if anyone still does this?
Yes.

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Old 06-18-2017, 10:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scout II View Post
Has any FFL dealers in the past few months or so gotten a 1 in 30 purchase pushed through? I have my C&R FFL and COE and my local FFL dealer used to let me DROS two or more guns in the same month. But DOJ told him it is a no go and he does not do that any longer. I am just curious if anyone still does this?
In your case, we have been notified that the 30 day restriction exemption is ONLY for C&R handguns, we are no longer allowed to apply this to modern handguns for a 03COE.

Now if for 1 C&R, 1 modern, I can run the non-exempt pistol first, normal; then the exempt transaction with the 30 day restriction exemption set to "yes". After either, there is a 30 day elimination period before the new modern handgun can be DROS'd.

We understand this is not law, but "Rule Making" by your moral superiors.
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Old 06-19-2017, 7:49 AM
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Old 06-21-2017, 8:41 AM
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UPDATE: DOJ compliance called us back yesterday. She did inform us that the DES was incorrect in denying this sale to our customer. We have requested a refund for the customer and she has told us that she will be making a report on this issue, we gave her the DROS numbers for all 3 transactions (the C&R, the Modern and the subsequent re-DROS on the modern after the 30 day wait)

We are unsure if we will be getting that refund to pass along to our customer and probably will not know for some time. She indicated that there is a possibility of DOJ sending out a bulletin to all FFL's regarding this issue and apologized for the mistake.

I'll update as we know more about what happens.
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Old 06-21-2017, 8:44 AM
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What? They actually admit to a mistake?
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Old 11-29-2017, 4:46 PM
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Just had this happen again had a different person who has a C&R and COE do a DROS on a modern pistol and get rejected again. This time he got the modern from me and did 2 DROS on the C&R stuff elsewhere. BS
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Old 11-29-2017, 8:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by acespawnshop View Post
Just had this happen again had a different person who has a C&R and COE do a DROS on a modern pistol and get rejected again. This time he got the modern from me and did 2 DROS on the C&R stuff elsewhere. BS
If they bought the C&R's first, that is why they got denied. Once the "1/30" resets, the first purchase (modern or C&R) is regarded as a new DROS. It's the subsequent C&R ones the don't affect the 1/30.
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Old 11-29-2017, 9:32 PM
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if an attorney is willing to take up this case I have no issue being named as a plaintiff in the case also.
Another reason I ALWAYS use Aces. Stand up guys willing to go to bat for their customers.
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Old 11-30-2017, 8:35 AM
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Originally Posted by acespawnshop View Post
Just had this happen again had a different person who has a C&R and COE do a DROS on a modern pistol and get rejected again. This time he got the modern from me and did 2 DROS on the C&R stuff elsewhere. BS
Wow, and this was with the modern gun first, followed by the exempt guns?

The FFL I use (Farwest Photography) said he's heard of problems with a dealer transfer after a PPT even (I was doing both at the same time and he wanted to make sure the dealer transfer was first).
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Old 11-30-2017, 11:02 AM
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I know the customer is cool with me sharing a little of his info so I will give some more backstory on customer 2. His dad was in town a few months ago and brought him 3 pistols. Dad lives out of state so they couldn't just do the interfamily form. Customer has been DROSing 1 every 31 days and this was the last pistol from his dad's gift. He had told me on the phone yesterday he did buy 2 C&R pistols on November 2nd from another dealer, used his license and COE and the DROS's were marked 1-30 exempt and waiting period exemption was used and he took possession that same day.

Yes he DROS'ed his modern pistol (gift 3 from dad) around Monday and Wednesday we got the 1 in 30 rejection. I know this is why he was rejected, but this shouldn't be the case. And as stated at the start of this thread I will be willing to provide any details to an attorney who is willing to take up the case on behalf of the buyers, so long as the buyers don't mind me sharing that information with an attorney.

We had spoken with DOJ about Customer 1 when this happened to him a while ago and the did tell us, that there shouldn't have been a 1 in 30 violation but that's just how their system works and there's nothing they are willing to change about it at this point.
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  #29  
Old 11-30-2017, 11:09 AM
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acespawnshop acespawnshop is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M1NM View Post
Another reason I ALWAYS use Aces. Stand up guys willing to go to bat for their customers.
Thanks!

Yes, we feel like we're out money here in this case in regards to employee time. Also we have had to store a firearm longer than required under the law and that takes room in our safe plus insurance costs. In both cases we never charged our customers any additional fees when we had to Re-DROS their guns since we feel there was no mistake made on the part of the purchaser. They are following the law and being punished by the DOJ by having to wait longer than necessary for their firearms and having to pay an additional DROS fee.
We did have them pay this part only not our additional $25 transfer fee. Store policy here is if you do an interstate transfer and do not deliver the firearm within the 30 day period and we have to re-DROS we charge our $25 fee again plus the DROS fee. Not trying to be mean but we just can't work twice for free and our fee is already super low anyhow (insert shameless advertising plug below).
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Interstate Transfers $25 plus $25 DROS and tax. ammo transfers $15 plus tax
Email acesjewelryandloan@hotmail.com if you need us to do a transfer!
Or call 626-968-5900
Gun transfers 10am-5pm 7 days a week!
We are an NFA firearms dealer!

Follow us on Facebook @acesjewelryandloan Need Cash Fast? Get a loan on your firearms here!
Tons of new handguns! New Aero Receivers in stock soon!

Last edited by acespawnshop; 11-30-2017 at 11:11 AM..
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