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  #41  
Old 06-21-2018, 2:20 PM
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Originally Posted by rodralig View Post
...I would understand that people have different styles of getting their point across; but if the best you guys can come up with is admonish wordplay (like a "Hahaha") and something that is PAST, then there is nothing else for me to say...
I think you have to realize that there are a lot of folks here that are pedantic old farts and I'd ignore those.
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  #42  
Old 06-21-2018, 8:03 PM
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One of the hardest skills to master is to be able to do stuff while there's a gun in your hand.

It takes courage to admit to a mistake, particularly on a public forum.

I've had ROs/SOs tell me I was close to the 180 before.

Overall you're doing great and appear on the right track. You probably have more skill than 99% of Calguns.
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  #43  
Old 06-21-2018, 8:16 PM
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You probably have more skill than 99% of Calguns.
You're not setting the bar very high...
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  #44  
Old 06-22-2018, 7:23 AM
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Default You are missing the point....

A lot of people are missing the point here.
We are talking safety and attitude... and to connect safety with a "HaHaHa" just doesn't fly right for some of us.

Looking at the OP's videos, it's obvious he has gun handling skills.

Cw
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  #45  
Old 06-22-2018, 9:01 AM
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A lot of people are missing the point here.
We are talking safety and attitude... and to connect safety with a "HaHaHa" just doesn't fly right for some of us.

Looking at the OP's videos, it's obvious he has gun handling skills.

Cw
or some of us just understand that OP isn't just laughing this incident off like it was nothing. but OP is using a bit of humor to off-set the disappointment in being DQ'ed. kinda like how some people laugh or joke about almost dying.

not all mistakes have to be a grim, funeral like somber experience that you can't look back on with some humor.

and for the people that have an issue with the "fall 7 times, get up 8", should OP change that to a more western saying of "never give up" or "get back in the saddle" would that satisfy your weird hangup on that?
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  #46  
Old 06-22-2018, 9:18 AM
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or some of us just understand that OP isn't just laughing this incident off like it was nothing. but OP is using a bit of humor to off-set the disappointment in being DQ'ed. kinda like how some people laugh or joke about almost dying.

not all mistakes have to be a grim, funeral like somber experience that you can't look back on with some humor.

and for the people that have an issue with the "fall 7 times, get up 8", should OP change that to a more western saying of "never give up" or "get back in the saddle" would that satisfy your weird hangup on that?
Very well put!! my exact sentiment
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  #47  
Old 06-22-2018, 11:03 AM
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I think you and I have different definitions of negligent and careless. I would accept that your examples are not grossly negligent, but they are negligent none the less ("failing to take proper care in doing something").
Indeed we have different definitions.

I'm not a fan of blanket-labeling of all mistakes as being negligent or careless. It's not just that it's too broad of a brush (which it is). It's wrong in a very profound way - making mistakes and learning is at the core of human intelligence. Dismissing this process as simply "preventable" is ignoring that we, as the human race, are where we are precisely because of this process, not in spite of it.

I've made many safety infractions in various fields and majority were not because I was being careless (although I had my share of those too). They were mostly because I either didn't know enough, or because I knew enough, but didn't have a proper protocol to check it. Every time this happened, I would not only learn from it, but change my process to prevent it happening in the future.

I'll give you a quick example. A while ago I was landing in very gusty winds in French Valley. As I was doing minor adjustments to keep the plane on the centerline, a minute roll to the right coincided with a gust from that side that not only rolled the plane to the right quite a bit, but pushed me off the runway. I recovered and landed normally (also had contingency in place, so no big deal). When talking to CFIs and some other friends, they mentioned that it's best not to use flaps in gusty conditions. They've learned it through similar experiences and now I've learned it too. Had I started the conversation with "hahahaha," it would've been more of a nervous chuckle than "hold my beer." Either way, it's what people do *after* a close call that makes the difference.

This is what it looks like the OP is doing too. I have no problem with him being safe and I have no problem with him shooting on my squad if he happened to be on it.
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  #48  
Old 06-22-2018, 12:01 PM
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Man this dead horse is getting the crap beat out of it!
Look the OP screwed up and lacked proper muzzle discipline at his first match. He was ultimately DQ’d and even owned up to it like a good competitor without any drama. Ultimately he is taking this as a huge learning experience and chocking it up to “not do that again” skill.
Now I do t know this guy at all, I can see how his hahaha could be taken as being careless, but in reading with the entire context of his post it’s just a nervous sort of tick and that he is taking it seriously. So let’s just lighten up a bit on the over analyzing.

Now if he comes back and posts “oops I did it again” sometime down the road, it’s flame on times a thousand.
Until then OP, practice your movements while maintaining muzzle discipline, practice your reloads while being aware of muzzle discipline. The new courses of fire are gearing towards this to mentally screw with or slow down the competitors.
Get an airsoft gun and practice around the house, (don’t be shooting stuff, it makes s big mess to clean up) use the fatal funnels and door ways as your corners and such. Go slow, really slow, concentrate on your muzzle awareness. Build up that muscle memory and before you know it, it’ll be second nature.
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  #49  
Old 06-22-2018, 3:10 PM
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Look the OP screwed up and lacked proper muzzle discipline at his first match.
Not his first match... his first "sanctioned" match. OP appears to have shot about ten matches.

OP made the cardinal mistake of letting his competitive nature overcome his rational understanding of his abilities and common sense safety rules.
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  #50  
Old 06-22-2018, 3:22 PM
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and for the people that have an issue with the "fall 7 times, get up 8", should OP change that to a more western saying of "never give up" or "get back in the saddle" would that satisfy your weird hangup on that?
Perhaps. This thread has definitely made me realize that I have weird hang ups over firearm safety and quotes that have more to do with personal performance than learning to avoid mistakes.

But I get it. I need to just let it go since it was just a little DQ.
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  #51  
Old 06-22-2018, 3:33 PM
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But I get it. I need to just let it go since it was just a little DQ.
Awe... just say no to Political Correctness on the range and in the shooting sports!!!

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  #52  
Old 06-22-2018, 7:31 PM
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Originally Posted by OCEquestrian View Post
Not his first match... his first "sanctioned" match. OP appears to have shot about ten matches.

OP made the cardinal mistake of letting his competitive nature overcome his rational understanding of his abilities and common sense safety rules.
Ok, then more than likely the local club SOs are a bit more relaxed and then inherently let the OP ingrain some bad habits. Anyway you look at it, that particular SO caught him and face him the appropriate call. Its a noteworthy learning experience.
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  #53  
Old 06-23-2018, 12:33 AM
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Ok, then more than likely the local club SO’s are a bit more relaxed and then inherently let the OP ingrain some bad habits.
1) That is a VERY unfair assumption. I compete at a lot of "local / unsanctioned" matches.. I have never seen a flagrant 180 degree muzzle violation given a pass. If I did i would demand action against the competitor who just endangered himself, the friends I shoot with and me. I would also complain about the SO who gave the pass.

2) You should not be shooting a match without the correct habits beginning to become muscle memory / unconscious mindset. Matches ARE NOT THE PLACES TO LEARN basic weapons manipulation and tactics... despite what all the Pollyanna's and politically correct "just go out and do it, learn as you go" proponents have to say about it. I have seen a few of them shooting matches...they talk a far better game here in CalGuns than the shoot on the range.

3) Clearly the OP knew better and had enough matches under his belt to know the safety rules and what was expected. He simply was focusing too much on speed, well beyond his ability, as CLEARLY evidenced by his inability to keep his wits about him and not lose sight of the BASIC safety rules. HELL, what he did was an epic fail from a tactical perspective as well had he been in a real gunfight.

No one has even asked if there was a real person behind that camera who was almost muzzled to death there....
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  #54  
Old 06-23-2018, 12:37 PM
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No one has even asked if there was a real person behind that camera who was almost muzzled to death there....
cause the camera was on a tripod. evidenced by the fact that the camera angle shows it is already past the 180 line of a hot stage.
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  #55  
Old 06-23-2018, 12:48 PM
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cause the camera was on a tripod. evidenced by the fact that the camera angle shows it is already past the 180 line of a hot stage.
Poor camera.... I'm sure it was shuttering.......
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  #56  
Old 06-24-2018, 4:34 PM
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Obviously, gun safety is very important. In the last few weeks I've shot two large matches, 1 in Ca. and this weekend Oregon. Both had about 235 shooters. One had 11 DQs and the other 5 DQs. At what point would you determine for yourself that USPSA is too dangerous and you won't compete anymore?
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Old 06-24-2018, 10:26 PM
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At what point would you determine for yourself that USPSA is too dangerous and you won't compete anymore?
It's not "too dangerous." The DQs are there to ensure that.

When evaluating safety of any activity, the best way is to look at the safety record. A solid safety record over a long period of time is never just a coincidence. It's always because tremendous amount of time, effort and thinking went into ensuring safety in spite of human nature.
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  #58  
Old 06-24-2018, 11:02 PM
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I didn't say it was too dangerous. I understand that the DQ penalty reinforces to individuals the need to be safe. Going by this discussion it seems that some people would think it was too dangerous based on their reaction to what it takes to earn a DQ. USPSA does have a great safety record.
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  #59  
Old 06-25-2018, 5:47 AM
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Obviously, gun safety is very important. In the last few weeks I've shot two large matches, 1 in Ca. and this weekend Oregon. Both had about 235 shooters. One had 11 DQs and the other 5 DQs. At what point would you determine for yourself that USPSA is too dangerous and you won't compete anymore?
I'll stop out of boredom before i stop because i think the sport is unsafe.

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Old 06-25-2018, 11:16 AM
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Have you guys even read this entire thread and the comments that I'm referring to?
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  #61  
Old 06-25-2018, 12:19 PM
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I have.

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Old 06-25-2018, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by DSMeyer View Post
Ok, then more than likely the local club SOs are a bit more relaxed and then inherently let the OP ingrain some bad habits...
I think it was a combination of a bad stage plan, trying to go too fast, and also lack of exposure to running up range and back down range right away. Local matches rarely have that kind of movement as part of COF. Usually up range movement is the last array when COF dictates it.
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Old 06-25-2018, 12:49 PM
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... I have never seen a flagrant 180 degree muzzle violation given a pass. If I did i would demand action against the competitor who just endangered himself, the friends I shoot with and me. I would also complain about the SO who gave the pass....
And you would be wrong to demand action against the shooter even if you are a Certified Range Officer. As a competitor you have no standing or authority to try to act as an RO, (Rule 7.3.2) at least in USPSA.

You have no idea whether the RO saw the violation or gave him a pass and also due to your viewpoint from up range you could also be wrong in thinking there is a 180 violation.

Of course, you are free to talk to the match director or not shoot the rest of the match if you think people are running shooters unsafely.
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  #64  
Old 06-26-2018, 6:37 AM
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I think you have to realize that there are a lot of folks here that are pedantic old farts and I'd ignore those.


Hahaha!!! I hear you... I definitely hear you...

When I first started there was really not much I know, hence, had to take it what most everyone would say, etc.

But now that I have a little experience and a bit of knowledge, I can actually assess whether what was said makes sense and/or applies to me...

_
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Old 06-26-2018, 7:38 AM
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And you would be wrong to demand action against the shooter even if you are a Certified Range Officer. As a competitor you have no standing or authority to try to act as an RO, (Rule 7.3.2) at least in USPSA.
I seldom shoot a USPSA match, I shoot IDPA and I didn't say I was going to act as an SO, unless it was one of the frequent times I am an SO.

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You have no idea whether the RO saw the violation or gave him a pass and also due to your viewpoint from up range you could also be wrong in thinking there is a 180 violation.
You failed to note the adjective "flagrant" in the construction of my sentence.

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Of course, you are free to talk to the match director or not shoot the rest of the match if you think people are running shooters unsafely.
LMAO... that was the point I was making but you had a hard time comprehending that....
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  #66  
Old 06-26-2018, 9:11 AM
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I seldom shoot a USPSA match, I shoot IDPA and I didn't say I was going to act as an SO, unless it was one of the frequent times I am an SO. ..
Note what you said before below.

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I have never seen a flagrant 180 degree muzzle violation given a pass. If I did i would demand action against the competitor who just endangered himself, the friends I shoot with and me. I would also complain about the SO who gave the pass....
Demanding action against a competitor when someone else is running him as an SO is acting as an SO. In this case even if you might be right from a safety standpoint you are wrong from officiating standpoint unless you are involved in the match itself as a range master/match director or one of the SOs on that particular stage. As a competitor your options are to leave or talk to match director about the SO. Otherwise, we'd have mob rule with competitors trying to override SOs, not to mention I could see something like this being abused by people when they wish to eliminate the competition.
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Old 06-26-2018, 9:47 AM
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Note what you said before below.



Demanding action against a competitor when someone else is running him as an SO is acting as an SO. In this case even if you might be right from a safety standpoint you are wrong from officiating standpoint unless you are involved in the match itself as a range master/match director or one of the SOs on that particular stage. As a competitor your options are to leave or talk to match director about the SO. Otherwise, we'd have mob rule with competitors trying to override SOs, not to mention I could see something like this being abused by people when they wish to eliminate the competition.
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Of course, you are free to talk to the match director or not shoot the rest of the match if you think people are running shooters unsafely.
Is the essence of demanding action... or do you just still want to be combative on the issue?
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Old 06-26-2018, 9:56 AM
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And THIS

Is the essence of demanding action... or do you just still want to be combative on the issue?
Well I am not as familiar with IDPA as I am with USPSA (Certified RO). In USPSA you can't really demand action against another competitor for missed calls by an RO. You can however call for arbitration after paying the $100 fee after the match and try to make your case to the arbitration panel.

You can complain about the RO though, to the MD at any time.
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Old 06-26-2018, 9:57 AM
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You can complain about the RO though, to the MD at any time.
FINALLY... winner winner chicken dinner!!!!
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Old 06-26-2018, 10:19 AM
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FINALLY... winner winner chicken dinner!!!!
You are ignoring your previous comment about demanding action against the competitor and taking my other comments out of context. That is what I have been discussing.
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Old 06-26-2018, 11:35 AM
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Is the essence of demanding action... or do you just still want to be combative on the issue?
Only moms can demand action...

In USPSA you can bring things to attention of the MD/RM, but it's all unofficial. There is nothing you can do as a competitor about a missed safety call. Any MD/RM who acted upon your demand would lose in arbitration if the affected shooter filed for one.

Tanks is correct. An RO who is not a match official has the same standing as any other shooter.
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Old 06-26-2018, 2:08 PM
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Tanks is correct. An RO who is not a match official has the same standing as any other shooter.
Correct. And any shooter can go to the MD and complain.
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Old 06-26-2018, 5:06 PM
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Correct. And any shooter can go to the MD and complain.
Sure anyone can complain, but those complaints are not actionable against either the RO or the shooter. They can only raise an issue and have the RM monitor it a bit closer from that point on.
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Old 07-22-2018, 3:32 PM
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UPDATE: In taking action to further improve my understanding and regard for safety in the action/practical shooting sports, I opted to assist (partly because of the heat, as well), and was accepted by the MD, to run my squad half-way through the match as it's SO in Saturday's IDPA match. I was basically an "SO in training" under the observation of an official SO.

I am scheduled to take the training class once it becomes available, and be certified.

That said, the biggest takeaway given by my SO - do not primarily focus my attention on the targets being shot at; the focus should be at the gun, the hands, the whole shooter in general. For me, this changed my perspective a lot on safety with a hot range.


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Old 07-24-2018, 8:48 AM
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[b]...That said, the biggest takeaway given by my SO - do not primarily focus my attention on the targets being shot at; the focus should be at the gun, the hands, the whole shooter in general. For me, this changed my perspective a lot on safety with a hot range.
...
That was one of the supposed reasons for putting in the cover lines. ROs were paying more attention to the shooters position for cover than actually what the shooter was doing.

One other thing you need to watch for is that if the shooter skips a target the possibility that he could run back to shoot it. So, allow for that possibility when positioning yourself around the shooter.
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Old 07-24-2018, 12:39 PM
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One other thing you need to watch for is that if the shooter skips a target the possibility that he could run back to shoot it. So, allow for that possibility when positioning yourself around the shooter.
That is good to know! Insightful, actually! I will keep this in mind...


The NRA RSO training teaches that we need to be around 45-deg to the side of the shooting hand. The reason is that it allows for the RSO to reach out with his/her arms in case the shooter loses control (consciously or subconsciously).


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Old 07-24-2018, 4:12 PM
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UPDATE: In taking action to further improve my understanding and regard for safety in the action/practical shooting sports, I opted to assist (partly because of the heat, as well), and was accepted by the MD, to run my squad half-way through the match as it's SO in Saturday's IDPA match. I was basically an "SO in training" under the observation of an official SO.

I am scheduled to take the training class once it becomes available, and be certified.

That said, the biggest takeaway given by my SO - do not primarily focus my attention on the targets being shot at; the focus should be at the gun, the hands, the whole shooter in general. For me, this changed my perspective a lot on safety with a hot range.


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We are hosting a USPSA NROI RO class at Deadwood Boys in Piru on Sept. 29/30 if you are looking for a class: https://uspsa.org/seminars/details/75
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Old 07-24-2018, 7:36 PM
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We are hosting a USPSA NROI RO class at Deadwood Boys in Piru on Sept. 29/30 if you are looking for a class: https://uspsa.org/seminars/details/75
Good to know Jon!

I'll put this on my calendar...

Cheers~~~


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Old 07-24-2018, 8:47 PM
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There were 13 DQs in the match including one of the ROs on Friday. 5-6 of the DQs were on one particular stage. I think stage design had something to do with so many DQing on that stage as well (not the one OP DQed on).
There were 5 DQs on Stage 1. That is the third video in post #2 of this thread.

The first was a righty open shooter who went left then right for the first 2 positions. Coming out of the second position on the right, he moved left to come back towards the center of the shooting area and let his muzzle get behind him.

The next on was a guy moving with his finger on the trigger. He was warned on his previous stage.

The next one was a new shooter who dislodged his gun from his holster during the walk through and picked it up himself. He was not familiar with the dropped gun outside of the course of fire rule. He is now.

The final 2 were right handed production shooters. Both engaged the left and right targets near the start and advanced toward the second array mid-field. Both shooters engaged the low targets and then engaged 2 down range targets before moving again. Since there were 8 more rounds required down range, both guys had to reload. One guy went to the right side of the center array to go down range and one guy went to the left side of the center array. Both started to reload when moving and both broke the 180 when reloading.

The mid-field array had tall walls on either side that did not allow engagement of the targets beyond the 180.

So, in review, there was one guy who got DQ'ed because he didn't know the rules (the RO really tried to stop him before he picked up the gun but the guy did not stop). The other four were poor gun handling. Not much you can do with stage design to fix that unless you just do stand and shoot stages like the Steel Challenge.
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Old 07-24-2018, 10:34 PM
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The NRA RSO training teaches ...
Forget about that. NRA RSO is about hot-cold ranges. Action shooting is cold ranges only and ROs are referees, not babysitters. You will rarely be in a position to physically restrain a shooter without interfering with him.

Look at all the DQs you can find on YouTube. Look at your own DQ. How many are such that the RO made physical contact? I can't think of one.
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