I want an off roster handgun..

[cgseanp1]

I’m AD stationed in CA, but am a resident of a different state. I understand there is a sticky about this, but it’s older and a lot of the links are bad now.

Based off sticky, I am only a resident of CA for gun buying purposes. But, I’ve also read in a different thread that military can hold 2 different states of residence for gun buying purchases. So, is the sticky still accurate? If so, next question/scenario:

I can’t buy a gun in my home state, can I receive a gift of a gun(or 2, or 3) in my home state (from dad) and bring back to CA? I know my dad can gift me a gun, even if I was an actual resident of CA, but I’d like to avoid the hassle of shipping to a FFL.

Am I required to register once in CA?

Oh and like title says, I am specifically looking at an off roster gun.

I know this is a fairly beat to death topic, I just want to make sure I’m clear on the current laws. Thanks

[RHSth4]

You dont need to be a resident of California to purchase here. Showing proof that you got stationed here along with your state ID and military ID you can buy whatever at the guns stores. As far as off roster goes, do you plan on visiting your home state anytime soon?

[cgseanp1]

Originally Posted by RHSth4

You dont need to be a resident of California to purchase here. Showing proof that you got stationed here along with your state ID and military ID you can buy whatever at the guns stores. As far as off roster goes, do you plan on visiting your home state anytime soon?

I’ve purchased plenty of guns in CA with my military orders. I want to get a gun in my home state (AZ) and bring it back with me. I may be going to AZ sometime in the near future.

I am an AZ resident.

[Quiet]

Under Federal laws/regulations...

Active duty Military are considered residents of the State that are stationed in and not residents of the State they were before they went active duty. [18 USC 921(b) and 27 CFR 478.11]

So, active duty Military stationed in CA are considered CA residents for the purpose of acquiring firearms.

Which means under CA laws/regulations...

If the active duty Military stationed in CA went to their home State on leave, acquired a firearm there, and brought it back to CA; then it would be illegal importation of a firearm. [PC 27585(a)]
^Misdemeanor per long gun [PC 27590(a)] and felony per handgun [PC 27590(c)(7)].


Therefore...
Need to weigh your want over risk of getting caught and how being arrested for a felony may impact your Military career.



18 USC 921
(b) For the purposes of this chapter, a member of the Armed Forces on active duty is a resident of the State in which his permanent duty station is located.

27 CFR 478.11
State of residence.
The State in which an individual resides. An individual resides in a State if he or she is present in a State with the intention of making a home in that State. If an individual is on active duty as a member of the Armed Forces, the individual's State of residence is the State in which his or her permanent duty station is located, as stated in 18 U.S.C. 921(b). The following are examples that illustrate this definition:
Example 1.
A maintains a home in State X. A travels to State Y on a hunting, fishing, business, or other type of trip. A does not become a resident of State Y by reason of such trip.
Example 2.
A maintains a home in State X and a home in State Y. A resides in State X except for weekends or the summer months of the year and in State Y for the weekends or the summer months of the year. During the time that A actually resides in State X, A is a resident of State X, and during the time that A actually resides in State Y, A is a resident of State Y.
Example 3.
A, an alien, travels to the United States on a three-week vacation to State X. A does not have a state of residence in State X because A does not have the intention of making a home in State X while on vacation. This is true regardless of the length of the vacation.
Example 4.
A, an alien, travels to the United States to work for three years in State X. A rents a home in State X, moves his personal possessions into the home, and his family resides with him in the home. A intends to reside in State X during the 3-year period of his employment. A is a resident of State X.

Penal Code 27585
(a) Commencing January 1, 2015, a resident of this state shall not import into this state, bring into this state, or transport into this state, any firearm that he or she purchased or otherwise obtained on or after January 1, 2015, from outside of this state unless he or she first has that firearm delivered to a dealer in this state for delivery to that resident pursuant to the procedures set forth in Section 27540 and Article 1 (commencing with Section 26700) and Article 2 (commencing with Section 26800) of Chapter 2.

Penal Code 27590
(a) Except as provided in subdivision (b), (c), or (e), a violation of this article is a misdemeanor.
(c) If any of the following circumstances apply, a violation of this article shall be punished by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year or pursuant to subdivision (h) of Section 1170, or by a fine not to exceed one thousand dollars ($1,000), or by both that fine and imprisonment.
(7) A violation of Section 27585 involving a handgun.

[cgseanp1]

Forgive my ignorance, but why wouldn’t this apply:

Section 921(b) of the GCA provides that a member of the Armed Forces on active duty is a resident of the State in which his permanent duty station is located. The purchaser's official orders showing that his or her permanent duty station is within the State where the licensed premises are located suffice to establish the purchaser's residence for GCA purposes. In combination with a military identification card, such orders will satisfy the Brady Act's requirement for an identification document, even though the purchaser may actually reside in a home that is not located on the military base.
Licensees should note that for purposes of the GCA, military personnel may in some cases have two States of residence. For example, a member of the Armed Forces whose permanent duty station is Fort Benning, Georgia, may actually reside in a home in Alabama. For GCA purposes, that individual is a resident of Georgia when he or she is in Georgia and a resident of Alabama when he or she is in Alabama. If such an individual wishes to purchase a firearm in Alabama, he or she must of course comply with the identification document requirement in the same way as any other Alabama resident.

Also, I understand it says you are a resident of where you are ordered, but where does it say you are prohibited from buying in your home residence state?

[cgseanp1]

Also, why wouldn’t this apply?


ATF has previously addressed the eligibility of individuals to acquire firearms who maintain residences in more than one State. Federal regulations at 27 CFR 478.11 (definition of State of Residence), Example 2, clarify that a U.S. citizen with homes in two States may, during the period of time the person actually resides in a particular State, purchase a firearm in that State. See also ATF Publication 5300.4 (2005), Question and Answer B12, page 179. Similarly, in ATF Ruling 80-21 (ATFB 1980-4, 25), ATF held that, during the time college students actually reside in a college dormitory or at an off- campus location, they are considered residents of the State where the on-campus or off- campus housing is located.

[Quiet]

Since you are active duty Military with permanent duty station in CA, you are considered a CA resident. [18 USC 921(b)]

While you are active duty Military and you maintain your AZ residency, then you are considered an AZ resident only while you are living in AZ.
However, while you are in AZ, you are still considered a CA resident because you are still active duty Military with permanent duty station in CA.

Which means...

You can acquire a firearm in AZ as a AZ resident, but you can not bring it to CA unless it is transferred to you through a CA FFL dealer because you are also considered a CA resident. [PC 27585(a)]

Which means any firearm you acquire in AZ, needs to stay in AZ or be shipped to a CA FFL dealer, who will then transfer (DRSO/10 day wait/1 in 30 day wait) the firearm to you.

The CA DROS system will not allow off-Roster handguns to be imported in, unless an exemption is utilized (LEO sale, C&R, OTP, SAE, SSE2).

Failure to utilize a CA FFL dealer equates to illegal importation [PC 27585(a)], which is a misdemeanor per long gun [PC 27590(a)] and a felony per handgun [PC 27590(c)(7)].

Therefore...

You need to weigh your want of having an off-Roster handgun in CA over the risk of getting caught smuggling an off-Roster handgun into CA and how being arrested for a felony may impact your Military career.

Or your want of an off-Roster handgun that stays in AZ.

[cgseanp1]

So, I can buy a gun in AZ. I just can’t import it into CA without going through FFL.. so hypothetically, I buy a shotgun in AZ. Do I bring it into CA and drop it off at a FFL? Transfer it to myself? So confusing.. And you’re right, there is no gun I need that bad to jeopardize my career.. or freedom. Which is why I’m here trying to get some real answers. Thanks again

[Librarian]

Originally Posted by cgseanp1

So, I can buy a gun in AZ. I just can’t import it into CA without going through FFL.. so hypothetically, I buy a shotgun in AZ. Do I bring it into CA and drop it off at a FFL? Transfer it to myself? So confusing.. And you’re right, there is no gun I need that bad to jeopardize my career.. or freedom. Which is why I’m here trying to get some real answers. Thanks again

No, you CANNOT buy a gun in AZ (and take possession of it there).

As already stated several times, for gun buying purposes, you are a resident of the state to which you have PCS orders.

Because you have orders to CA, you could buy in AZ, and have it delivered to a CA FFL - but because it must go through a CA FFL, handguns must be on the Roster unless you might be exempt (mostly civilian LEO), the gun might be exempt (C&R, usually), or the transfer might be exempt (usually parent-child gift).

The procedure is the have the AZ FFL ship to a co-operating CA FFL. You cannot take possession of it, nor bring it into CA yourself.

The sticky reflects current Federal law - no changes there since 2012.

[cgseanp1]

Why is this part never mentioned? “Licensees should note that for purposes of the GCA, military personnel may in some cases have two States of residence. For example, a member of the Armed Forces whose permanent duty station is Fort Benning, Georgia, may actually reside in a home in Alabama. For GCA purposes, that individual is a resident of Georgia when he or she is in Georgia and a resident of Alabama when he or she is in Alabama. If such an individual wishes to purchase a firearm in Alabama, he or she must of course comply with the identification document requirement in the same way as any other Alabama resident.“

How does this not apply? Forget off roster, forget importing into CA.

So, I don’t currently reside in AZ and commute to CA.. but that is a possibility. I could work in southern CA and actually commute to AZ. Which then apparently I could purchase a gun in either state.

[pp55ftw]

***I am not a legal expert. Nothing I say below should be taken as legal advice, just based on my experience. AD USN Hospital Corps!***

I think some of the posts here are getting way too in depth reading between the lines of laws and rules. Appreciate the research and detail but I think based on my experience a bit of straightforward logic is the way to go. Yes, technically you are a "resident" of the state you are stationed in but no where in military regulations does that mean you give up your "prior service" address. It was explained to me that you are essentailly a "temporary resident" You still maintain a "home of record" that the military recognizes as your permanent address. You still pay taxes based on your home of record, not your duty station.

So, in light of this as it applies to gun ownership as I understand it, if you are a valid resident of another state, you can buy a gun in that state provided you do not use your orders/military address as your home of record on the ATF paperwork (i.e. you just buy it as any other JoeSmo in your home state). You are allowed to bring said firearm to CA in a legal manner (i.e. as if you were a civilian who just moved to the state of CA with your guns). Essentially make sure your rifles/ARs comply with CA law and that if you have any "off-roster" handguns you comply with all transfer laws regarding off roster handguns.

I base my conclusions on talking to FFLs both on base and civilian side. Full disclosure I am a CA resident and have only been stationed in CA so far but have friends from out-of-state stationed with me who have brought their own toys to their duty station.

Hope this helps!

Thanks.

[SkyHawk]

Originally Posted by pp55ftw

***I am not a legal expert. Nothing I say below should be taken as legal advice, just based on my experience. AD USN Hospital Corps!***

I think some of the posts here are getting way too in depth reading between the lines of laws and rules. Appreciate the research and detail but I think based on my experience a bit of straightforward logic is the way to go. Yes, technically you are a "resident" of the state you are stationed in but no where in military regulations does that mean you give up your "prior service" address. It was explained to me that you are essentailly a "temporary resident" You still maintain a "home of record" that the military recognizes as your permanent address. You still pay taxes based on your home of record, not your duty station.

So, in light of this as it applies to gun ownership as I understand it, if you are a valid resident of another state, you can buy a gun in that state provided you do not use your orders/military address as your home of record on the ATF paperwork (i.e. you just buy it as any other JoeSmo in your home state). You are allowed to bring said firearm to CA in a legal manner (i.e. as if you were a civilian who just moved to the state of CA with your guns). Essentially make sure your rifles/ARs comply with CA law and that if you have any "off-roster" handguns you comply with all transfer laws regarding off roster handguns.

I base my conclusions on talking to FFLs both on base and civilian side. Full disclosure I am a CA resident and have only been stationed in CA so far but have friends from out-of-state stationed with me who have brought their own toys to their duty station.

Hope this helps!

Thanks.

The problem with your theory is people don’t and can’t ‘move’ in and out of CA on a daily or weekly basis. I can’t just decide I am moving to NV this weekend, buy some off roster (or any other) guns, and moving back to CA on Monday.

As a CA resident, meaning if the state of CA can consider him a resident - if he brings a handgun back that he acquires out of state - lawfully or not, it is a felony. If he is NOT a CA resident and is moving here tomorrow, that is a different story. In that case yes - bring all the guns you want.

Military or not, you are subject to CA laws, no matter how dumb they are - you don’t get a pass if you are stationed here.

And now let me conclude with the standard advice: the premium you will pay to legally acquire the off roster gun you want is a lot cheaper than bail money, attorneys fees, and a possible loss of career. Even it you have to pay double or triple, it is worth it if there is *any* question about the legaility of other shenanigans. So my advice if you are a CA resident, is to buy the gun in a PPT from another CA resident, or have a generous & direct family member out of state gift it to you using a CA FFL.

[AregularGuy]

Just have your dad or mom gift you an off-roster gun, sent to CA FFL, via intrafamilial transfer for your next birthday, Holiday, etc.

[Librarian]

ATF is quite clear:

27 CFR 478.11

State of residence. The State in which an individual resides.

An individual resides in a State if he or she is present in a State with the intention of making a home in that State.

If an individual is on active duty as a member of the Armed Forces, the individual's State of residence is the State in which his or her permanent duty station is located.

If one maintains proper identification and actually have a residence in some other state, it might be possible to deceive an FFL in that state and successfully buy a gun there,

That effort puts you and the FFL at risk of a Federal felony, which could put paid to your career in the military.

I don't recommend that, but anyone is free to do as s/he thinks is best.

[cgseanp1]

Originally Posted by Librarian

ATF is quite clear:



If one maintains proper identification and actually have a residence in some other state, it might be possible to deceive an FFL in that state and successfully buy a gun there,

That effort puts you and the FFL at risk of a Federal felony, which could put paid to your career in the military.

I don't recommend that, but anyone is free to do as s/he thinks is best.

You are right, that is clear. What isn’t clear is where it says you can not purchase a firearm in your legal or home state of residence. You say deceive, but the ATF gives specific examples of how certain people may purchase guns in multiple states, and military is one of the examples. Another example is when a citizen has homes in multiple states. So forget military. Why wouldn’t this apply? I have a home in 2 different states, and I spend time at both homes during the year.

So once again, where does it say one is forbidden from purchasing a firearm in their legal state of residence? Is this based off the idea that you can only be a resident of one place at one time, therefore you are only a resident of where you are stationed?

Ps. I’m over the off roster gun. I got a buckmark and a benelli to hold me over!
Pss. I am not talking about bringing a gun into CA.
Pssss. Not trying to stir the pot, looking for real answers.

[Germz]

Originally Posted by cgseanp1

I’m AD stationed in CA, but am a resident of a different state. I understand there is a sticky about this, but it’s older and a lot of the links are bad now.

Based off sticky, I am only a resident of CA for gun buying purposes. But, I’ve also read in a different thread that military can hold 2 different states of residence for gun buying purchases. So, is the sticky still accurate? If so, next question/scenario:

I can’t buy a gun in my home state, can I receive a gift of a gun(or 2, or 3) in my home state (from dad) and bring back to CA? I know my dad can gift me a gun, even if I was an actual resident of CA, but I’d like to avoid the hassle of shipping to a FFL.

Am I required to register once in CA?

Oh and like title says, I am specifically looking at an off roster gun.

I know this is a fairly beat to death topic, I just want to make sure I’m clear on the current laws. Thanks

you can go back home to wherever you're from and buy a gun there. so long as the configuration isn't banned, you can bring it to california and are exempt from registering it.

[AregularGuy]

Originally Posted by Germz

you can go back home to wherever you're from and buy a gun there. so long as the configuration isn't banned, you can bring it to california and are exempt from registering it.

You "can" but not legally.

[Germz]

Originally Posted by AregularGuy

You "can" but not legally.

what?

If I'm an AZ resident but stationed in CA. I would have dual residency for the purposes of buying guns. I can buy guns in either state. how is that not legal?

[71MUSTY]

Originally Posted by Germz

what?

If I'm an AZ resident but stationed in CA. I would have dual residency for the purposes of buying guns. I can buy guns in either state. how is that not legal?

I suspect it is because you are overlooking the California Law which states California Resident can not buy a gun out of state and import it to California unless it is done thru a FFL. California Residents are subject to California laws even if they might also be a resident somewhere else.

Please re read this, by this definition military are only residents of their duty state, not dual residents. Perhaps prior to this you could have been dual residents.

18 USC 921
(b) For the purposes of this chapter, a member of the Armed Forces on active duty is a resident of the State in which his permanent duty station is located.

[AregularGuy]

Originally Posted by Librarian

ATF is quite clear:



If one maintains proper identification and actually have a residence in some other state, it might be possible to deceive an FFL in that state and successfully buy a gun there,

That effort puts you and the FFL at risk of a Federal felony, which could put paid to your career in the military.

I don't recommend that, but anyone is free to do as s/he thinks is best.

Originally Posted by Germz

what?

If I'm an AZ resident but stationed in CA. I would have dual residency for the purposes of buying guns. I can buy guns in either state. how is that not legal?

Originally Posted by 71MUSTY

I suspect it is because you are overlooking the California Law which states California Resident can not buy a gun out of state and import it to California unless it is done thru a FFL. California Residents are subject to California laws even if they might also be a resident somewhere else.

Please re read this, by this definition military are only residents of their duty state, not dual residents. Perhaps prior to this you could have been dual residents.

18 USC 921
(b) For the purposes of this chapter, a member of the Armed Forces on active duty is a resident of the State in which his permanent duty station is located.

See above from Librarian and other post here.

[Librarian]

Originally Posted by Germz

what?

If I'm an AZ resident but stationed in CA. I would have dual residency for the purposes of buying guns. I can buy guns in either state. how is that not legal?

ATF uses this example:

If
a member of the Armed Forces maintains a home in one State and the
member’s permanent duty station is in a nearby State to which he or
she commutes each day, then the member is considered a resident of
both the State in which his or her duty station is located and the
State in which his or her home is maintained, and he or she may
purchase a firearm in either State.

Absent the commute, PCS orders govern.

See the letter to FFLs, https://www.atf.gov/file/56416/download%E2%80%8E

[Germz]

then use a different state as an example. my residency is virginia but I'm stationed in CA.

I CAN go home to VA and buy a gun there. That isn't gaming the system. looks to me as the law is written its permitted.

[Librarian]

Originally Posted by Germz

then use a different state as an example. my residency is virginia but I'm stationed in CA.

I CAN go home to VA and buy a gun there. That isn't gaming the system. looks to me as the law is written its permitted.

It is NOT permitted. BATFE tells us your ONLY residence for gun purposes is where your PCS orders have you stationed. (You are not claiming the 'edge case' of commuting from one state to your PCS station.)

It should be the way you describe. The country is certainly not made at risk if that should be true. But it isn't.

Acting on that description exposes you and the seller to 5 years in Federal prison and/or a $10,000 fine.

Go talk to JAG; hire a Real Lawyer. You need to hear this from someone you will believe.

[Fizzman]

What about in the case of a California reservist on active duty training orders to another state for 3 months. Can I buy guns while in that state and bring it back and register it within 60 day of comming off active duty orders?

[Librarian]

Originally Posted by Fizzman

What about in the case of a California reservist on active duty training orders to another state. Can I buy guns while in that state and bring it back and register it within 90 day of comming off active duty orders?

That's not a PCS assignment - the reservist would be just a visitor.

[Fizzman]

What about a reservist with a billet/command/unit in another state. Drilling in California for convenience

[Librarian]

Originally Posted by Fizzman

What about a reservist with a billet/command/unit in another state. Drilling in California for convenience

Perhaps I have a limited imagination here, but wouldn't the reason for "Drilling in California for convenience" be because you live here?

I don't think 'reservist' figures in here, unless he/she might be called to extended active duty and things like PCS then make sense.

[Fizzman]

Yeah, the for convenience is due to where you live. A reservist (not national guard) can be attached/stationed to a unit outside of the state where they live. But they can drill close by for the convenience of the government (cost of travel and lodging for just a weekend). But if things hit the fan, or unit deploys, pretty much any meaningful activity is done with the unit. Also, I want to revise the previous question. I just got off active duty in California since Oct 2018. But since transfered to the reserves. I am set to go to school in Texas for 3 months. Can I buy and bring guns back? During my stay in Texas I will be on active duty training orders. I will be residing full time in Texas for those 3 months. Once done, my active duty orders will terminate and I will receive a dd214 for that time and come back to being a reservist.
I don't know what the legality behind it is, but effectively its basically like me "joining" the military and shipping out to Texas for 3 month and then "leaving" the military and moving back to California.

[Librarian]

Originally Posted by Fizzman

Yeah, the for convenience is due to where you live. A reservist (not national guard) can be attached/stationed to a unit outside of the state where they live. But they can drill close by for the convenience of the government (cost of travel and lodging for just a weekend). But if things hit the fan, or unit deploys, pretty much any meaningful activity is done with the unit. Also, I want to revise the previous question. I just got off active duty in California since Oct 2018. But since transfered to the reserves. I am set to go to school in Texas for 3 months. Can I buy and bring guns back? During my stay in Texas I will be on active duty training orders. I will be residing full time in Texas for those 3 months. Once done, my active duty orders will terminate and I will receive a dd214 for that time and come back to being a reservist.
I don't know what the legality behind it is, but effectively its basically like me "joining" the military and shipping out to Texas for 3 month and then "leaving" the military and moving back to California.

I suspect 'active duty for training' is not the same as 'permanent change of station', but I'd ask JAG. I've done the first, but being required to live in dorms for basic and electronics and equipment training, it just never occurred to me to shop for anything 'interesting'.

Long time ago, too ...

[Fizzman]

I think active duty training, and active duty work orders all mean the same. It's a designator for the reserves for accounting purposes. The question is whether it means PCS or not is a different story. If I get no issues buying with those orders, then theoretically should be able to import as a new resident. During the registration process, if denied, what would happen? Turn it in or get charged with the import PC. If charged, would the defense of convoluted law work? Since I was able to purchase no problem.
Also, another thought is, if I can purchase in Texas, would it be wise to try to register it there. If everything goes through then bring it back, if not then it's still physically in Texas. Ie no laws broken. Just lying on the registration form of where the gun is physically, which is seems hardly worth prosecuting.

[alland]

Originally Posted by Fizzman

Also, another thought is, if I can purchase in Texas, would it be wise to try to register it there. If everything goes through then bring it back, if not then it's still physically in Texas. Ie no laws broken. Just lying on the registration form of where the gun is physically, which is seems hardly worth prosecuting.

It would be very hard to register a firearm in Texas since Texas does not register firearms.

[Fizzman]

No, I mean register it in California while I am still in Texas, as if I had imported it. I'm sure there are people who have done that in anticipation of a move to California.
Also, for the record I'm not necessarily looking to buy off roster specifically . Sorry for hijacking thread. I just might buy something if it catches my eyes be it handgun or rifle.

[jcourson]

It is not just a california law that you would be breaking. You would also be breaking a federal law. The Gun Control Act provides that a member of
the Armed Forces on active duty is a resident of the State in which his or her permanent duty station is located. Your TAD orders do not constitute PCS orders.
As has already been stated, if you do this with a handgun you are commiting a felony.