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  #41  
Old 08-10-2018, 8:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beetle View Post
there IS an ATF clarification on this... I'll have to go find it. short answer, store is wrong. Only the Colt National Match made starting in the late 1920s and going until the 1960s is considered exempt from the roster (due to C&R status).

The moment they started marking the gun "Gold Cup National Match" (beginning in 1970s until now) it is not a exempt.
IMHO when beetle talks about collectible 1911's and other handguns, it is best to listen carefully.

I found this that mostly supports his recollection:

https://forum.m1911.org/showthread.p...eligible/page2

I sent an Email to the ATF just to be sure... Here is what I got back....

"The Colt pistol that qualifies as a Curio and Relic is marked "NATIONAL
MATCH". The receiver is marked "GOVERNMENT MODEL" above the serial
number. The serial number range starts at approximately C162997
manufactured from 1932 to 1942. All serial numbers commence with the letter
"C".

It does not include:

National Match manufacture beginning in 1957 (renamed "Colt Gold Cup
National Match")
MKIII National Match
MKIV/Series 70 Gold Cup National Match
MKIV/Series 70 Gold Cup 75th Anniversary National Match
Gold Cup MKIV Series 80 National Match
Stainless Gold Cup National Match
Elite IX Gold Cup National Match
.38 Super Elite National Match
Bullseye National Match
Presentation Gold Cup"
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  #42  
Old 08-10-2018, 8:51 PM
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I think there is a lot of confusion and misunderstanding in this thread. I know a little about the history of the national match. here is an article that I wrote (which is also by the way a sticky on the 1911forum): http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=631001

The most precise answer is that the C&R designation ONLY applies to what collectors call the "Pre-War National Match". Note that the listing in the ATF C&R list doesn't say "Gold Cup" -- it says "National Match". Technically the only pistol that Colt made that was called just the "National Match" were those pistols made in the period approximately between 1930-1940 (too lazy to go look up the exact date). It's this one:



However, I have also stated and a lot of other FFLs agree that the post-war National matches are on the borderline of being acceptable. The guns themselves are also marked "National Match", although the box is marked "Gold Cup National Match". Since there is no "Gold Cup" marking on the slide you could make an argument that it matches the ATF designation of "National Match, all serial numbers. The main thing is that the slide only says "National Match". In addition, most of these are old enough to qualify for the 50 year C&R exemption as well. this one:



However, it is very clear that once Colt changed the slide marking to "Gold Cup National Match", not to mention all of the Mark III, Mark IV, Series 70, and Series 80 markings that it does NOT qualify for the ATF C&R designation.

The whole "they are still C&R due to being the same design" doesn't hold water either, because they are not the same design. The model made in the 60s had their slide lightened to allow for semi-wadcutter ammo. and of course we know the Series 80 had a modification to the firing system.

in any event I'm all for increased availability of handgun models in California. If Addax is comfortable in selling a new colt gold cup national match, then I say bravo! go buy one while you still can. Here is a fun question -- if I show up at Addax with my C&R and COE, will they sell me the pistol with no wait?
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  #43  
Old 08-11-2018, 2:18 PM
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https://www.gunauction.com/buy/14848496
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  #44  
Old 08-11-2018, 3:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billkohatsu View Post
Really debating whether I want to make a 60 mile drive (120 mile roundtrip) to Addax this weekend.
Been wanting a Colt 1911 for a while but despised the idea of paying the off-roster markup.
HA! 153 miles each way for me & I'm considering it.
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I hope Ruger pays the extortion fees for the SR1911. I mean the gun is just as good if not better than a Les Baer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by redcliff View Post
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  #45  
Old 08-11-2018, 3:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shootsocal_dave View Post
Curios or Relics List ó January 1972 through April 2018

Section II ó Firearms classified as curios or relics, still subject to the
provisions of 18 U.S.C. Chapter 44, the Gun Control Act of 1968.

Colt, National Match semiautomatic pistols, all S/Ns, in original configuration.

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/un...-2018/download
Whoa--- did not know this. I have a GNCM Series 80 that was handed down from my father... but it's from the 90s. Interesting...
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  #46  
Old 08-11-2018, 3:58 PM
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Oh wait...we're talkin about "National Match" designation...
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  #47  
Old 08-11-2018, 5:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fishslayer View Post
At $1400 I woulda probably wrenched my shoulder getting to my wallet!


Same here, wish the shop was close to me


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  #48  
Old 08-11-2018, 6:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by simonp View Post
Same here, wish the shop was close to me


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with tax its $1540, still a buy??
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  #49  
Old 08-11-2018, 6:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sfe187 View Post
with tax its $1540, still a buy??


Last gold cup I saw at the lgs was near $2k and it was bear to Hell

BNIB Colt Gold cup at $1540 in Cal is a buy


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  #50  
Old 08-11-2018, 6:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gimmejr View Post
My clarificatiin is that no retailer is selling 50 years or newer gold cup national matches unless they are on consignment. Or what other way the original poster is talking about.
1) I have bought them more than once and from more than one dealer in the past 20 years exactly in opposition to your suggestion of "no" and as beetle is describing above, on how certain dealers have interpreted the NM designation. (As if I was going to argue with them!).

2) So in essence shootsocal_dave is right, because that is exactly how they interpreted it, or misinterpreted it (if it makes you comfortable and is important to be 'right') in order to have sold the gun(s) to me.

I gave no argument at the time.

.
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  #51  
Old 08-11-2018, 6:41 PM
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Lots of things slip through the cracks and this is definitely one or them. Good luck to anyone who can take advantage of this.
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  #52  
Old 08-11-2018, 7:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Air View Post
Went to Addax Tactical (great shop btw) today to DROS a Shotgun and noticed a NIB Colt Gold Cup in the counter display. It caught me by surprise since I thought all Colt's had fallen off the roster...

Struck up a conversation with one of the employees (Addax actually employs knowledgable people that aren't full of crap) - He told me that it's an oddball little loophole...if the pistol is considered an "Olympic Pistol" it's roster exempt. Color me surprised on this one. Can anybody explain this?
Is it NIB CURRENT PRODUCTION GOLD CUP ?
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  #53  
Old 08-11-2018, 7:19 PM
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Yes, they are new production and there are a few dealers that sell it so it’s not a one shop deal

Guess what. They come in 9mm too
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  #54  
Old 08-11-2018, 7:37 PM
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If some dealers interpret as C/R exempt and/with DOJ's blessing as Addax say they did, isn't this a $1179 retail gun price already? why the need for an extra $220 mark up if its legal to sell in CA? Just wondering thats all.

https://www.riflegear.com/p-3794-col...-45-blued.aspx
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  #55  
Old 08-11-2018, 8:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by munkeeboi View Post
Yes, they are new production and there are a few dealers that sell it so itís not a one shop deal

Guess what. They come in 9mm too
Great! So now people can get Series 70 GC in .45 and 9mm
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  #56  
Old 08-12-2018, 7:43 AM
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Based on this , ANY 1911 marked NATIONAL MATCH should be ok for CA?
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  #57  
Old 08-12-2018, 9:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ap3572001 View Post
Based on this , ANY 1911 marked NATIONAL MATCH should be ok for CA?
Possibly, as long as CADOJ chooses to interpret "National Match" in the manner which they apparently have. Time will tell if CADOJ's interpretation and BATFE's interpretation actually encompass the same pistols.

https://forum.m1911.org/showthread.p...eligible/page2

"I sent an Email to the ATF just to be sure... Here is what I got back...."

"The Colt pistol that qualifies as a Curio and Relic is marked "NATIONAL
MATCH". The receiver is marked "GOVERNMENT MODEL" above the serial
number. The serial number range starts at approximately C162997
manufactured from 1932 to 1942. All serial numbers commence with the letter
"C".

It does not include:

National Match manufacture beginning in 1957 (renamed "Colt Gold Cup
National Match")
MKIII National Match
MKIV/Series 70 Gold Cup National Match
MKIV/Series 70 Gold Cup 75th Anniversary National Match
Gold Cup MKIV Series 80 National Match
Stainless Gold Cup National Match
Elite IX Gold Cup National Match
.38 Super Elite National Match
Bullseye National Match
Presentation Gold Cup"
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Last edited by redcliff; 08-12-2018 at 4:30 PM..
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  #58  
Old 08-13-2018, 12:11 PM
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Could you name the stores you bought them from?


Quote:
Originally Posted by CALI-gula View Post
1) I have bought them more than once and from more than one dealer in the past 20 years exactly in opposition to your suggestion of "no" and as beetle is describing above, on how certain dealers have interpreted the NM designation. (As if I was going to argue with them!).

.
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  #59  
Old 08-13-2018, 12:46 PM
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Would be nice to find some Bay Area stores selling these.
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  #60  
Old 08-13-2018, 2:07 PM
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They are really nice guns. Nostalgic too. LOL
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  #61  
Old 08-13-2018, 2:13 PM
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$1540??? Must. Resist. Temptation.
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  #62  
Old 08-13-2018, 3:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kozumasbullitt View Post
Would be nice to find some Bay Area stores selling these.
Exactly or one that would order one for you or receive one at least!
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  #63  
Old 08-14-2018, 9:44 AM
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Olympic (International) pistol disciplines:

Air, .177 caliber, single shot
Rapid Fire Pistol: .22LR, 5-shot
25m Pistol: .22LR, 5-shot

Additional International (Non-Olympic) Pistol disciplines:

Free Pistol: .22LR, single shot
Standard Pistol: .22LR, 5-shot
Centerfire Pistol: Any centerfire cartridge, .30 to .38 caliber Pistol or revolver


I would guess it would be unlikely that a National Match 45 would get an Olympic Firearm Exemption, since it's not legal for use in the Olympics.
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  #64  
Old 08-14-2018, 9:54 AM
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I am amazed that folks are fighting against the interpretation that FFLs are using to legally bring in and sell these Colts, if it is working or flying under the DOJ radar why are you complaining? Leave it be and buy one or leave it be so others can buy them rather than emailing the DOJ and having them possibly change the rules on us yet again!
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  #65  
Old 08-14-2018, 10:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by simonp View Post
I am amazed that folks are fighting against the interpretation that FFLs are using to legally bring in and sell these Colts, if it is working or flying under the DOJ radar why are you complaining? Leave it be and buy one or leave it be so others can buy them rather than emailing the DOJ and having them possibly change the rules on us yet again!
Been watching this thread and thinking the same thing. Rather than debating and calling attention to the situation, just drive over and buy the damn gun already. Addax is a great shop and was one of my favorite places to shop when I used to live in the San Fernando Valley.
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  #66  
Old 08-14-2018, 10:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shootsocal_dave View Post
email back from the ATF after asking if there was anything in writing, per our conversation about Gold Cup National Match vs National Match.

"Thatís it. I asked the head of our Firearms Tech Division more than once, even the new ones? I was told pretty much... what part of all National Match donít you understand.

SIOI James Palm
ATF (Regulatory)"
I for one, believe you and would highly recommend that people who think he is wrong just shut up about it. I mean really, is someone really arguing that a particular gun should not be exempt from the completely arbitrary roster?

This is known as "looking a gift horse in the mouth".
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  #67  
Old 08-14-2018, 11:04 AM
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Thatís the funny part. Part of my conversation with the atf following this determination is ďwhy would you regulate yourself more than the government already doesĒ
If they say itís good, then itís good. Just because some of these guys donít understand C&R doesnít make them the licensing authority! If anyone tells you C&r must be 50+, find a new LGS


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  #68  
Old 08-14-2018, 11:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lead Waster View Post
I for one, believe you and would highly recommend that people who think he is wrong just shut up about it. I mean really, is someone really arguing that a particular gun should not be exempt from the completely arbitrary roster?

This is known as "looking a gift horse in the mouth".
Well said.
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  #69  
Old 08-14-2018, 4:20 PM
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Again, Im only going off what the ATF told me, but for those that say pre war national match only, can you explain these?

Colt .38 National Match semiautomatic pistol, all S/Ns and in their original configuration.

I read it as all .38s, including the super, and mid range (special).
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Old 08-14-2018, 4:31 PM
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Dad: Waiter, let the kids order anything off this menu, but NO ICECREAM!

Billy: Oh, boo, I wanted Ice Cream!

Waiter: Hey Billy, technically "Sherbert" is not ice cream, you want me to get you that?

Sally: Dad! Dad! Sherbert is ice cream right? We aren't allowed to get sherbert right?

Dad: You're right! No sherbert for you guys!

Sally: Gosh, I wish I could have had some sherbert.

Billy: Sally, you b****.
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Old 08-14-2018, 4:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lead Waster View Post
Dad: Waiter, let the kids order anything off this menu, but NO ICECREAM!

Billy: Oh, boo, I wanted Ice Cream!

Waiter: Hey Billy, technically "Sherbert" is not ice cream, you want me to get you that?

Sally: Dad! Dad! Sherbert is ice cream right? We aren't allowed to get sherbert right?

Dad: You're right! No sherbert for you guys!

Sally: Gosh, I wish I could have had some sherbert.

Billy: Sally, you b****.
And in this case, Mommy already told the kids that sherbet was ok, and the kids argued among each other and convinced Dad that it was in fact ice cream, and talked themselves right out of it!
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  #72  
Old 08-15-2018, 10:35 AM
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http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/co...45-acp-c14150/
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  #73  
Old 08-15-2018, 12:14 PM
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Lale plz post a picture....
X2!
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Old 08-15-2018, 3:58 PM
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So wait, would that mean the new reproduction WWI and WWII Colts be roster exempt as well?
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Old 08-16-2018, 8:51 AM
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So wait, would that mean the new reproduction WWI and WWII Colts be roster exempt as well?
Depending on the C&R List, kid of lol. Some C&Rs are exempted by age, some are exempted by serial number range, some are exempted by mfg, markings or model.

Good example, Walther PPK is not C&R automatically, only by age.

the list exempts

Walther, Model PP and PPK pistols, mfd. in France by Manhurin during the 1950s.

Walther, Model PP and PPK semiautomatic pistols, in all cal.ís, mfd. in France and marked
"MANHURIN"

Manhurin marked PP and PPK walthers were mfg until the late 80s, and were still C&R! So even though it was made recently, its still C&R.
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  #76  
Old 08-16-2018, 9:24 AM
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I always thought the series 70 GC was mfg’ed in the ‘70s give or take a few years but I saw an advertised S70 GC and it was a current production, 2015, run based on the older 1970 version. One of the obvious differences is the cut out in the trigger. The old production has a crescent half moon cut out and the new production has three holes.
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  #77  
Old 08-16-2018, 9:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shootsocal_dave View Post
Depending on the C&R List, kid of lol. Some C&Rs are exempted by age, some are exempted by serial number range, some are exempted by mfg, markings or model.

Good example, Walther PPK is not C&R automatically, only by age.

the list exempts

Walther, Model PP and PPK pistols, mfd. in France by Manhurin during the 1950s.

Walther, Model PP and PPK semiautomatic pistols, in all cal.ís, mfd. in France and marked
"MANHURIN"

Manhurin marked PP and PPK walthers were mfg until the late 80s, and were still C&R! So even though it was made recently, its still C&R.
I've known about this but even funnier is I guess it does not exempt the PPK/s just the PP and PPK?
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Old 08-16-2018, 9:53 AM
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Leave the ATF outa this lol.

Someone go buy it
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Old 08-16-2018, 11:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xxINKxx View Post
Leave the ATF outa this lol.

Someone go buy it
^

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Old 08-16-2018, 4:06 PM
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Could not find that Colt on Addax website ? On the [All Brands] button Addax don't even list the Colt manufacture.
I wonder is that Colt still available ? How do I buy it ? I do not like to drive to San Fernando and found out that the Colt is sold.

http://www.addaxtactical.com/firearms/pistols/
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