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  #81  
Old 10-12-2018, 8:33 PM
heidad01 heidad01 is offline
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Oh well, so much for the internet myths and 1911s modified to crazy measurements by some gun smiths. :rooleyes:
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  #82  
Old 10-13-2018, 10:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sonofeugene View Post
People are too all worked up about this and dry firing. If the gun can be damaged doing those things, it's a POS.
And I couldn't agree more. All this outrage about "Releasing a Slide on an empty mag, and Dry Firing is Sofa King Stupid I can't believe my eyes or ears.

The only guns it is not advisable to dry fire are rimfire guns where the firing pin hits the edge of the chamber or high dollar Shotguns which should be stored with snap CAps in them anyway. I have dry fired my High Dollar Shotguns thousands of times with snap caps. Spring life on a decent shogun is 100-200,000 cycles.

I have dry fired my Glocks literally thousands of times and none of them are any worse for it.

I have dry fired my 1911's literally thousands of times and none of them are any worse for wear.

This is how you learn real trigger control. Which obviously none of you have mastered yet.

You're gonna have a real hard time in a pistol class if you aren't willing to Dry Fire your guns, in fact you'll probably be dismissed, because you can't really learn how to shoot a handgun without considerable Dry Fire Practice.

All this shows is an antiquated and poor or No understanding of how a pistol works. The BS about Sears on 1911's "Floating" is BS too. Sears don't float they rotate around a pin. And dropping the slide has nothing to do with the sear at all. You saw the 500 slide drops in the video. Figure it out! I doesn't hurt the gun in the slightest.

I was told this when I was 10 and my Father was teaching me how to shoot. Then when I got old enough to take the gun apart and saw how it worked I went back and Re Educated my Father on this subject. When he saw how the gun worked he never mentioned this BS again.

As far as Etiquette,,, If someone tells me to not dry fire their gun I hand it back to them and walk away. I don't deal with idiots.

Stop it. it doesn't hurt anything! And what you "think" you know is Wrong!

Randy
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Last edited by W.R.Buchanan; 10-13-2018 at 11:22 AM..
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  #83  
Old 10-13-2018, 11:44 AM
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OP here--Not sure how this post got into dry firing handguns. But, with my wife out of town for months for her job I literally spend 3 hours a night picking a spot on the wall and dry firing my various semis and revolvers while watching TV.

Every single night-- gotta take advantage while wife gone!!-- If she were here she'd be shooting me some strange looks and probably be rather annoyed w me holding my Beretta 92, SW1911, etc etc on the sofa for 3 hours doing thousands of trigger squeezes at the wall while she was trying to watch a movie!!
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  #84  
Old 10-13-2018, 11:53 AM
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Personally I prefer to follow the advice of "idiots" like Hilton Yam and Bill Wilson on what is good or not for my 1911's. Many people posting in this thread have never seen 1911's with worn out slide stop holes in their frame, barrel feet that have been peened, or slide stop notches that are worn and rounded. Others have. Different reference points can lead to different opinions.

Treat your 1911's as you wish, but could we please maintain some civility in this thread and not call people that you disagree with "idiots"?
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  #85  
Old 10-13-2018, 12:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timbo399 View Post
OP here--Not sure how this post got into dry firing handguns. But, with my wife out of town for months for her job I literally spend 3 hours a night picking a spot on the wall and dry firing my various semis and revolvers while watching TV.

Every single night-- gotta take advantage while wife gone!!-- If she were here she'd be shooting me some strange looks and probably be rather annoyed w me holding my Beretta 92, SW1911, etc etc on the sofa for 3 hours doing thousands of trigger squeezes at the wall while she was trying to watch a movie!!
KInda funny you mention this, I actually do this almost every night, Iíve got a very understanding wife.
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  #86  
Old 10-13-2018, 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by ShaneB View Post
KInda funny you mention this, I actually do this almost every night, I’ve got a very understanding wife.
Ha!! That you do. It's amazing after just the first couple weeks of doing this and really focusing on trigger control it really got my groupings down a bit.
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  #87  
Old 10-13-2018, 9:50 PM
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I wouldn’t have a problem with it? Guns are tools, pretty sure putting thousands of rounds through our guns causes more wear than dry firing and racking an empty gun... many manuals tell you to rack the slide and release, you don’t ride the slide when you chamber weapons now do you? 1911’s seem to be more fragile in this instance though but the ones I’ve seen were really abused. Definitely don’t dry fire rim fire guns though.
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  #88  
Old 10-13-2018, 10:02 PM
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Originally Posted by tacticalcity View Post
Well, you're gonna get erked a lot. Because it is the standard manual of arms for handling pistols.

If you gently move the slide forward when empty, you'll end up doing so when loading a round out of pure habit and cause a jam or misfire when you can't afford to have a jam or misfire. It's about muscle memory and developing good habits. If the slide is locked, slam it home every time. That way when your life is on the line, you won't habitually do it wrong and end up with a paper weight in your hands.

Put another way. If you do something the same way (the right way), every time...you'll do it that way when it counts. But if you do it one way some of the time, then another way some of the time, and draw imaginary distinctions that require using your brain to think and make delicate choices rather than just react on instinct...you could get yourself killed.

That's why guys with defensive training, hit that release lever empty or not and let it slam home.
Wow, thanks for the input. Ive actually spent time on a two way range though so to me, your point is moot.
If you read my post I made mention that it is not bad for the weapon.
So as a former combat infantryman, and a gun store owner I really couldn't care less what others do with their weapon, but for me, there is no need for lil bobby the counter boy to take out my purchased weapon, and drop the slide and click the trigger in front of me for a show.
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  #89  
Old 10-14-2018, 6:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scratch705 View Post
...those with better skills, will usually do the quick pull back to pop the round out and catch it mid-air, then pull the slide back again to show empty chamber...
I wish I could do that, but for a lefty to be able to do that requires a slightly different method with a chance to sweep one's hand and get a DQ.
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  #90  
Old 10-14-2018, 7:43 AM
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Originally Posted by blasterp7 View Post
Yep, I feel the same - except common courtesy and common etiquette - are not so common
Just to add to your "common" theme (and not directed at anyone here), common sense isn't so common either..........
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  #91  
Old 10-14-2018, 8:10 AM
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So in summary, if you want to drop the slide on an empty chamber and dry fire, go for it.

If you don't, don't
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  #92  
Old 10-14-2018, 8:11 AM
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I do it all the time if a weapon can't handle it what good is it.
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  #93  
Old 10-14-2018, 9:23 AM
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He is the professional in this case - do you want to have him fail your safe handling demo?
I screwed with a millenial one time that wanted me to do a safe handling demo on an old model Ruger. Load one skip one load 4 - we're done. Nope need to put all 6 in - that will be unsafe - duh huh - call your boss. Boss had pissed look then basically said ok - ha ha now go away. Must have been his son.
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  #94  
Old 10-14-2018, 10:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redcliff View Post
Personally I prefer to follow the advice of "idiots" like Hilton Yam and Bill Wilson on what is good or not for my 1911's. Many people posting in this thread have never seen 1911's with worn out slide stop holes in their frame, barrel feet that have been peened, or slide stop notches that are worn and rounded. Others have. Different reference points can lead to different opinions.

Treat your 1911's as you wish, but could we please maintain some civility in this thread and not call people that you disagree with "idiots"?
+1

Forces acting on the parts are different when slide goes backward or goes forward. So gun manufacturers take this consideration when designing their semi pistol. Slide going forward has the force of the recoil spring slowed down by the slide weight and the bullet until contact by the (slide) stop pin. Slide going rearward has the force of recoil, hammer spring and slide weight to slow it down until connect with the frame.

There is also this thing call inertia, when a slide slam home the energy is transferred to other part of the gun. The reason other parts donít move is because of friction induced by the spring tension.

Every time u slide metal across each other there will be wear. And springs wear as one repeats full compression and decompression. And finally when metal hits each other there will also be impact force that can propergate any micro cracks inside the metal depending on the impact surface area.

Now take a look at the pistol u want to slam the slide forward. How is it designed and built? Is it Tupperware mil-spec hand gun or is it a $3000++ finely tuned handgun?

And if u ever tune the 1911 trigger, u will know that slam on empty can definitely destroy sear surface.
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  #95  
Old 10-14-2018, 10:37 AM
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Originally Posted by timbo399 View Post
Ha!! That you do. It's amazing after just the first couple weeks of doing this and really focusing on trigger control it really got my groupings down a bit.
Definitely, dry fire practice helps a lot with trigger control. I have always had issues with my wifeís shield, my groups with it have definitely gotten tighter.
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  #96  
Old 10-14-2018, 11:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by walmart_ar15 View Post
+1

Forces acting on the parts are different when slide goes backward or goes forward. So gun manufacturers take this consideration when designing their semi pistol. Slide going forward has the force of the recoil spring slowed down by the slide weight and the bullet until contact by the (slide) stop pin. Slide going rearward has the force of recoil, hammer spring and slide weight to slow it down until connect with the frame. Maybe the Slide Stop Pin which goes thru the Frame?

There is also this thing call inertia, when a slide slam home the energy is transferred to other part of the gun. The reason other parts donít move is because of friction induced by the spring tension.

Every time u slide metal across each other there will be wear. And springs wear as one repeats full compression and decompression. And finally when metal hits each other there will also be impact force that can propergate any micro cracks inside the metal depending on the impact surface area.

Now take a look at the pistol u want to slam the slide forward. How is it designed and built? Is it Tupperware mil-spec hand gun or is it a $3000++ finely tuned handgun?

And if u ever tune the 1911 trigger, u will know that slam on empty can definitely destroy sear surface.
Sir I am sorry but you have no understanding of either Pistol Design or Metallurgy. What you are saying can easily be based on Opinion, but certainly not on Fact.

IE: you kind of missed some fine points.

First: When the slide starts to move forward from it's rearward position the Sear catches the Hammer within about 1/4" of forward movement. There is absolutely no difference if the gun is loaded or not, because the cartridge has not started being stripped from the mag, thus the "Inertia" is the same.

Second: When the slide moves forward and slams into battery The only thing that slows it down if it is loaded, is the cartridge stripping off the magazine. This requires Minimal Pressure to accomplish. In other words it doesn't slow the slide down any meaningful amount.

The Cycle Time on a common Semi Auto pistol is between 50 and 100 Milliseconds and half of that is going back and the other half is going forward,,,, so if it is dropped empty there is so little difference in the time is is pointless to talk about. I'm sure there are high speed videos to verify this,,, Maybe?

Cyclic rate of fire on most Semi Auto Pistols is between 600 and 1200 RPM, thats 10 to 20 rounds a second! Hence the 50 to 100 MS number above.

Since all the wear surfaces are hardened parts and designed to take 10's of thousands of cycles at those speeds, the idea that cycling the slide and letting it drop is harmful to the sear or the slide is BS. The exact same thing happens whether the gun is loaded or dry !

Third the cartridge doesn't stop the slide from moving forward at the end of it's stroke. There is "headspace" which is clearance between the cartridge length and the chamber to bolt face length. The cam on the barrel stops the movement forward just after the barrel goes into battery. True of Glocks or 1911's. Try to push the slide forward with the gun empty,,, note how the slide doesn't fall off the gun. Now remove the takedown pin, or trip the take down catch on a Glock,,, note how the slide comes off the front? This is because the slide is stopped by the stop or takedown pin, not by going into battery.

Thus the slide slamming forward is not affecting the locking lugs of the gun in any way, it does the exact same thing whether fired or manually operated.

In closing I have a friend who was the Head Range Master At Front Sight for many years. Last time I saw him his G35 had in excess of 100,000 rounds thru it as well as easily the same number of Dry Fires. The gun still went bang every time he pressed the trigger.

That gun was passed down to his son who became the only Ambidextrous Pistol Combat Master in History. Meaning he passed the CM test Shooting and Clearing malfunctions with both hands,,, which is no small accomplishment!

He estimated that he had dry fired and wet fired that gun at least 50,000 times to develop those skills. That gun is still in service today!

They were getting 10-15,000 cycles out of trigger bars and strikers, and were changing the recoil spring every 5-8000 rounds which is normal maintenance for a Glock. A 1911 would have probably needed more maintenance to do the same thing as there is more wear points in those guns.

I hope that this dissertation will help make people more informed as to what is actually happening inside their pistols.

And you can do what you want if you don't believe me, but keep in mind,,, if you aren't willing to dry fire a gun, you will never be good enough to wear it out by shooting it. So why worry about it?

We need you to be competent so you can help in the fight.

Randy
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Last edited by W.R.Buchanan; 10-14-2018 at 11:52 AM..
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  #97  
Old 10-14-2018, 4:34 PM
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Originally Posted by W.R.Buchanan View Post
Sir I am sorry but you have no understanding of either Pistol Design or Metallurgy. What you are saying can easily be based on Opinion, but certainly not on Fact.

IE: you kind of missed some fine points.

First: When the slide starts to move forward from it's rearward position the Sear catches the Hammer within about 1/4" of forward movement. There is absolutely no difference if the gun is loaded or not, because the cartridge has not started being stripped from the mag, thus the "Inertia" is the same. The inertia is not from slide moving, but when it slam stop trying to move the frame forward as it hit the lower lug and the take down pin. In 1911, this action can jerk sear to disconnect with the hammer. But instead striking the firing pin, the hammer hook will catch the sear. A few hits on the tip of the finely polished sear will definitely damage it. Happens with light trigger when folk try to get that oz trigger or worn out hammer spring

Second: When the slide moves forward and slams into battery The only thing that slows it down if it is loaded, is the cartridge stripping off the magazine. This requires Minimal Pressure to accomplish. In other words it doesn't slow the slide down any meaningful amount. U forgot the weight of the cartridge too. It may not be noticeable by eye, but it matters

The Cycle Time on a common Semi Auto pistol is between 50 and 100 Milliseconds and half of that is going back and the other half is going forward,,,, so if it is dropped empty there is so little difference in the time is is pointless to talk about. I'm sure there are high speed videos to verify this,,, Maybe?

Cyclic rate of fire on most Semi Auto Pistols is between 600 and 1200 RPM, thats 10 to 20 rounds a second! Hence the 50 to 100 MS number above.

Since all the wear surfaces are hardened parts and designed to take 10's of thousands of cycles at those speeds, the idea that cycling the slide and letting it drop is harmful to the sear or the slide is BS. The exact same thing happens whether the gun is loaded or dry !see above on 1911 sear, no one mentioned it will damage the slides. Using the slide stop as slide release will wear the contact surface, which goes first depends on which is softer

Third the cartridge doesn't stop the slide from moving forward at the end of it's stroke. There is "headspace" which is clearance between the cartridge length and the chamber to bolt face length. The cam on the barrel stops the movement forward just after the barrel goes into battery. True of Glocks or 1911's. Try to push the slide forward with the gun empty,,, note how the slide doesn't fall off the gun. Now remove the takedown pin, or trip the take down catch on a Glock,,, note how the slide comes off the front? This is because the slide is stopped by the stop or takedown pin, not by going into battery.

Thus the slide slamming forward is not affecting the locking lugs of the gun in any way, it does the exact same thing whether fired or manually operated.the slide forward movement is stopped by the takedown pin which is typically a thick pin across the frame. The slide is locked to the barrel and the barrel contact the take down pin to stop its movement. No different for 1911 except the barrel lower lugs hitting the take down pin are not as beefy as modern design and it has a slot in it so the link can move. B/c of the small area of the lower barrel lugs, the force of impact is more concentrated, hence more wear.

In closing I have a friend who was the Head Range Master At Front Sight for many years. Last time I saw him his G35 had in excess of 100,000 rounds thru it as well as easily the same number of Dry Fires. The gun still went bang every time he pressed the trigger.

That gun was passed down to his son who became the only Ambidextrous Pistol Combat Master in History. Meaning he passed the CM test Shooting and Clearing malfunctions with both hands,,, which is no small accomplishment!

He estimated that he had dry fired and wet fired that gun at least 50,000 times to develop those skills. That gun is still in service today!

They were getting 10-15,000 cycles out of trigger bars and strikers, and were changing the recoil spring every 5-8000 rounds which is normal maintenance for a Glock. A 1911 would have probably needed more maintenance to do the same thing as there is more wear points in those guns.

Why modern Tupperware handguns are so reliable

I hope that this dissertation will help make people more informed as to what is actually happening inside their pistols.

And you can do what you want if you don't believe me, but keep in mind,,, if you aren't willing to dry fire a gun, you will never be good enough to wear it out by shooting it. So why worry about it?

We need you to be competent so you can help in the fight.

Randy
Sigh... pls re-read my post. We are saying the same thing on how things work. Also note that I indicated it depends on the design of the gun in question. Pls go spend some time in 1911 forum, then u may understand what the concerns are for the 1911 sears, lugs, etc. oh, 1911 is different from a G35.

Last edited by walmart_ar15; 10-14-2018 at 5:21 PM..
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  #98  
Old 10-14-2018, 7:18 PM
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Well maybe we are saying the same thing in different ways , but the Rate of fire is still so fast that dropping the slide on an empty chamber won't matter in the slightest. The weight of the slide is the same if it is dry fired or live fired.

Glocks maybe be different but the slide to barrel make up is doing exactly the same thing. Only in a slightly different manner.

As far as wear goes, the Glock will outlive the 1911 simply because the wear points fo frame to slide are much smaller and plated with Electroless Nickel and then baked which results in a surface that is 78Rc. The barrel is hard and the unlocking lug /plate in the frame which is also a slideway is also hard.
I have not seen any wear on any of my guns in 10,000+ rounds for the G35, and 6000 for the G21SF. A little lube of any kind on these parts works wonders.

I have had people tell me how dry firing a 1911 ruins the firing pin. Well the firing pin can't hit anything but a cartridge before the hammer hits the slide and stops it. Aslo teh sear catches the hammer long before the cartridge is being stripped and since the only thing driving the slide forward is the spring it doesn't know if it was fired or manually cycled.

Incidentally the rate of fire on a G18C is 11-1200 RPM and a Full Auto 1911 is 900-1000 RPM. For the Glock that is 50 milliseconds per cycle and the 1911 is about 60MS. That's 25-30 MS going rearward and 25-30 MS going back forward. for those who don't know that is .05 seconds or one half of a Tenth of a second for the whole cycle to happen.

My point here is the only thing driving the slide forward is the Recoil Spring. and it will travel forward within 2 Iotas as fast dry or wet. Point being the gun never knows the difference. Just a change from weak ammo to strong ammo would make up for that.

As long as there is some lube present the wear is virtually non existent. IF every cycle of the gun resulted in "Some Wear" the gun wouldn't last very long.

Every mechanical device wears out eventually, some obviously last longer than others. The Germans were good at making car engines that would last nearly forever. Swiss were good at watches, but my Jap Seiko that has been on my wrist every day for 30 years still is running and still gains 5 minutes a week just like it did the day my wife bought it for me for my 39th birthday.

I have never seen anyone "wear out" any Pistol by either shooting it or dry firing it or both.

Maybe someone else has? But I doubt it.

Randy
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Last edited by W.R.Buchanan; 10-14-2018 at 7:22 PM..
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