US/Bavarian M1 Carbines

[roysclockgun]

I just read a thread on these carbines that was two years old, however, I wanted to add what I have learned:

I own four of the so called Bavarian Carbines. My first interest was generated by my readings on Gen. George S. Patton Jr., who was military governor of Bavaria right after WWII.

Of course, all Germans were disarmed and the Allies did not want to give the German police any rifles, so carbines and hand guns were issued. Patton was among those wanting to rearm the Germans and together with Allied armies, turn east and attack Russia. These ideas caused the American command to get ready to arrest Patton as "mentally ill" and put him away in a shrink ward. Patton, died in an auto accident before the plan to arrest him was carried out.

Patton had jumped right onto the idea of getting US M1 Carbines into the hands of the various German Police departments and I suppose, that is why so many of them have Bavarian markings.

Only one of mine has the added on, German made rear sight base, just ahead of the bolt. The dovetailed "V" sight is not on the base. The Bavarian markings have been scrubbed and an adjustable, issue rear sight put on. I am assuming that this one went to Austria. The last three numbers of the SN have been stamped on a number of parts.

In terms of value: As more of the story surfaces, these carbines will out strip the value of the run of the mill, carbines. This because, collectors love stories! All the carbines issued to the German police, no doubt served during the fighting of WWII. They all have earlier parts, like two rivet hand guards and Type 1 barrel bands. Most are not mix masters. One can read on the carbine where it has been. And as with other milsurp, our imagination fills in the rest. The more we can "read" on the piece, the more we want to own it.

[FLIGHT762]

As a teenager in the late 1960's, I purchased an M1 Carbine. After all of these decades, I didn't booger it up and kept it completely original.

Turns out it is a National Postal Meter Bavarian carbine. Has lots of German proof marks and numberings on the parts. Has a nice, but faint stamp on the receiver rail "Bavarian Municipal Police". It also has a replacement Erma barrel. It also has all of the early parts.

I researched it on James Mock's website. He helped identify it for me when I supplied photos. Looks like I have one of the rarer versions of the Bavarian carbine. Bavarian Carbines are an interesting part of history.

[Grendl]

Still a hole in my carbine collection.

[Bainter1212]

I sold my Bavarian Forestry carbine a year or two ago. I am kind of still regretting that decision, although I needed the money at the time.
They are a neat variant

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[louie]

Fed Ord, or Bricklee as it was known for a while once got a whole bunch of these in the mid nineties. If I can remember they didn't have bayonet lugs like the later converted carbines in the late forties. They were I think around 200.00 back then, and you just paid the sales tax, and did a 4473, and out the door you went. Never was a carbine fan, but they had some really cool stuff back then. They also around that time brought in a bunch of trench shotguns from the Philippines. Most were ugly, but they did rework some into some nice looking guns.

[Black Majik]

I have a Bavarian Rural Police carbine that also was in service in Austria. Not only are the small parts on the bolt, oprod and stock stamped with the last 4 digits of the serial number, it has a refinished plum trigger guard marked LNGKO indicating service in Lower Austria.

I enjoy the history of this rifle very much, I’ll try to get a few pictures when I get home...

[Garand1911]

Originally Posted by louie

Fed Ord, or Bricklee as it was known for a while once got a whole bunch of these in the mid nineties. If I can remember they didn't have bayonet lugs like the later converted carbines in the late forties. They were I think around 200.00 back then, and you just paid the sales tax, and did a 4473, and out the door you went. Never was a carbine fan, but they had some really cool stuff back then. They also around that time brought in a bunch of trench shotguns from the Philippines. Most were ugly, but they did rework some into some nice looking guns.

Bricklee was a cool place, lots of surplus.

[beerman]

Originally Posted by Garand1911

Bricklee was a cool place, lots of surplus.

My shop was right behind them and I spent at least one lunch hour there every week hanging out with Paul and his crew. I know some folks hate to hear about the good ole days, but they sure were. I only regret that I didn't buy more. Especially one of those Swedes. I too remember the Bavarian Carbines..My co-worker bought a mint Erma Carbine clone 22 from that batch.

[louie]

Bricklee or Fed Ord had the smell of surplus too. You get that cosmo smell, with the smell of other old stuff you never get in a nice modern gun store. I bought my first MAK90 there on a black Friday sale for, 159.00!!! They only had them for that price for one day. Why oh why didn't I buy a dozen!!!! They also had the SKS China type for 89.00. Sadly when the 94 AWB came into effect little by little these type of stores started to close down.

[Mezcalfud]

Of my remaining carbines, 1 is a Bavarian. Truely a neat piece with a great history, thanks op for the info!

[Bobby Ricigliano]

I would question the idea that an M1 Carbine was somehow “safer” than the standard German issue K98 for post war German reissue during the Allied occupation. Clearly the 8mm cartridge was ballistically far superior to the .30 Carbine, but the slow rate of fire and lack of a detachable magazine drastically reduced the Mauser’s advantage as a combat weapon.

Just my .02

[Bainter1212]

I would say the M1 carbine makes a pretty darn good police weapon as it is. It was a no-brainer choice to arm the police in occupied countries.

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[Bobby Ricigliano]

Originally Posted by Bainter1212

I would say the M1 carbine makes a pretty darn good police weapon as it is. It was a no-brainer choice to arm the police in occupied countries.

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It was used by many police departments inside the USA as well. Light, handy, reliable, with .357 magnum ballistics in a semi-auto carbine. What's not to love about that?

https://www.tactical-life.com/combat...takeout-squad/

[smle-man]

Originally Posted by Black Majik

I have a Bavarian Rural Police carbine that also was in service in Austria. Not only are the small parts on the bolt, oprod and stock stamped with the last 4 digits of the serial number, it has a refinished plum trigger guard marked LNGKO indicating service in Lower Austria.

I enjoy the history of this rifle very much, I’ll try to get a few pictures when I get home...

German civilians were permitted to own M-1 carbines at one time although by the time I got to Germany in the 70s they were no longer allowed to be for sale. Those that had them could keep them. Germans used the rod and gun club range at the kaserne where I was stationed and an older German shot there with his sporterized carbine. It had a mannlicher type stock, a low power scope and a really cool pop up cheek piece that was spring loaded. He was of the age to have served in WW2. I thought it ironic that a WW2 era German was shooting a U.S. WW2 carbine on a originally German WW2 era rifle range.

[Bobby Ricigliano]

Originally Posted by smle-man

German civilians were permitted to own M-1 carbines at one time although by the time I got to Germany in the 70s they were no longer allowed to be for sale. Those that had them could keep them. Germans used the rod and gun club range at the kaserne where I was stationed and an older German shot there with his sporterized carbine. It had a mannlicher type stock, a low power scope and a really cool pop up cheek piece that was spring loaded. He was of the age to have served in WW2. I thought it ironic that a WW2 era German was shooting a U.S. WW2 carbine on a originally German WW2 era rifle range.

It seems to be somewhat underdocumented, but I have read snippets here and there about segments of the wehrmacht, ss, and even the volksturm who chose not to accept defeat and became "insurgents" for lack of a better word. There must surely have been a strong element of danger for Allied troops in the early postwar years, especially considering the sort of fanatical allegiance that was inspired by a.h.

Of course, they would have first had to survive the war and avoid capture by the Russians. No easy feats.

[Sutcliffe]

Just goes to show; when you think you are an expert on something is when you realize you are ignorant.

[smle-man]

Originally Posted by Bobby Ricigliano

It seems to be somewhat underdocumented, but I have read snippets here and there about segments of the wehrmacht, ss, and even the volksturm who chose not to accept defeat and became "insurgents" for lack of a better word. There must surely have been a strong element of danger for Allied troops in the early postwar years, especially considering the sort of fanatical allegiance that was inspired by a.h.

Of course, they would have first had to survive the war and avoid capture by the Russians. No easy feats.

The only insurgents that I've seen as documented were those in the former Baltic states and Poland. Those partisans fought against the Soviets, the last of them being in Lithuania in the mid-50s before being killed or captured.

I think the Germans were done with the war and ready to move on, at least all of the vets I spoke with some of whom even fought on the western front (it was a joke amongst us GIs that all of the WW2 era German males that we encountered were quick to state that they served on the Eastern front).

[smle-man]

Originally Posted by Marcus von W.

You could still buy M1 carbines and M1 Garands real cheap when I last lived in Germany in 1979-80, but they were in "Zwei Schuss halb-automat" (2 shot semi-automatic) configuration, so the carbines had magazines blocked to 2 rounds and there were special 2 round clips for the Garand.

The Germans also would convert carbines to bolt action by removing the slide and adding a handle to the bolt.

In WW2 captured M1 carbines were popular with the Germans due to their size, weight, and magazine capacity, although they never had a lot of them and ammo was a potential issue. German Gebirgsjaeger (Mountain Infantry) liked them and carried them in the post WW2 period.

I visited several German gunshops around Bavaria and hung out at the Waffen Frankonia store in Wurzburg. They had deactivated military semi rifles for sale but no live ones. I was told that military semi auto rifles were not permitted. One shop had M1 rifle receivers that they sold from disassembled rifles that looked like new. Barrels were impossible to get for M1s. I did encounter West German Heer helicopter pilots who had private purchase Mini 14s that they thought were the coolest thing ever. They could only find 5 round magazines for them but they liked them because they stowed easily in the cockpit of the CH53s they flew.

[I Swan]

I recently picked up a Brit 38 S&W Victory model that had the markings on backstrap of grip frame from being in service with a West German police force.

[smle-man]

Originally Posted by I Swan

I recently picked up a Brit 38 S&W Victory model that had the markings on backstrap of grip frame from being in service with a West German police force.

I have one like it but marked for Austria. They are great shooters. I reload for mine and enjoy a day at the range with it.

[SVT-40]

I've never owned a Bavarian carbine...

I do have some German made .30 carbine ammo in my collection though.

[I Swan]

I had some older German Geco 30 Carbine ammo.