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Survival and Preparations Long and short term survival and 'prepping'.

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  #1  
Old 05-11-2017, 7:35 PM
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Default Night Vision

Saw an interesting post on facebook on night vision. Got me thinking. I'm a perfect example of the crux of his argument. He pointed out that many are reluctant to invest 3-4 k$ in quality night vision, but have 5 1911s or 4 ARs, etc. got me thinking night will be the active time after SHTF and running around or checking out buildings at night, using a flashlight without NV is suicidal. Seems my priorities my be askew.
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Old 05-11-2017, 7:36 PM
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CouchOperator started a pretty good thread describing most aspects of it. It's in my future but yeah it's a good chunk of change to drop down.
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Old 05-11-2017, 7:42 PM
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So which SHTF scenario do you have in mind that has:
1) a need for you to actively run around building interior/exterior
2) no existing lighting
3) no EMP
4) everyone else able to actively engage without existing lighting

My take on this is that people in that scenario with lights will be beacon lit targets. People without night vision will be either staying bunkered down or running around with lights like targets above. People with night vision will be ? Doing what exactly that their night vision aids? Shooting? Just makes yourself a target. Evading? Could be doing that, hiding? Can do that without.

I'm not sure your priorities are messed up until you've got a massive stash of emergency food and medical supplies first. Do you?


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Old 05-11-2017, 8:49 PM
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My thoughts involving NV are centered around an LP/OP using it to report movement to someone up at the house that can make a decision on how to proceed.

Observation/stealth have value.

Door kicking? Not me and mine.
Need a narrowly defined set of circumstances for that to happen.

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At least until they become unservicable. It's not like swapping a bad firing pin in your AR.

*most big urban FD's use thermal for SAR in structure fires. Usually kept in one of the tool compartments in one of the apparatuses.
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Old 05-11-2017, 10:24 PM
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OP... what about in the meantime get a $300-$400 NV monocular along with a UV flashlight... not the best but it's something... that's what I'm gonna do and hopefully in a few years prices for real NV drops a lot :-)
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Old 05-11-2017, 10:30 PM
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Because of CA laws... If you are interested in night vision, look into night vision goggles or handheld (non-firearm mountable) night vision devices.

The really good firearm mounted night vision devices tend not to be CA legal due to having an active-IR source and magnification.




Basic summary of night vision devices...
Active IR scope with magnification = illegal [PC 468]
Active IR scope with no magnification = legal

Passive IR scope with magnification = legal
Passive IR scope with magnification and an IR illuminator = illegal [PC 468]
Passive IR scope with no magnifcation = legal
Passive IR scope with no magnification and an IR illuminator = legal

Active IR goggles with magnification = legal
Active IR goggles with no magnification = legal

Passive IR goggles with magnification = legal
Passive IR goggles with magnification and an IR illuminator = legal
Passive IR googles with no magnification = legal
Passive IR goggles with no magnification and an IR illuminator = legal
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Old 05-12-2017, 10:57 AM
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Do it.

Link in sig

Its incredibly hard to get someone past the idea of the initial sticker shock if theyve never used quality gen 3 autogated nods. Ive used nv for even a power outage. Safer than candles, 40+ hours on a commonly found AA vs 1.5 from my surefires, etc...
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  #8  
Old 05-12-2017, 1:12 PM
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Originally Posted by lordmorgul View Post

I'm not sure your priorities are messed up until you've got a massive stash of emergency food and medical supplies first. Do you?
With NV and a gun, I'll get all the food and medicine I need!

J/k, mostly. Food, water, guns and ammo, gasoline first.
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Old 05-12-2017, 1:56 PM
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I would say everyone with food storage & guns and considers themselves a "prepper" or "survivalist" should at least get one of those cheap monocles from Big 5 for $99. Lots of uses and even if you get good Gen3 gear later you can still use the cheap to give to others for guard duty, recon, etc.

I would not consider NV a priority until you have first got a group, at least 6mo food and water, firearms & ammo, 1st aid supplies, etc (all the basics). Once you have those things, why not? It will definitely give you an edge in the dark.
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Old 05-12-2017, 3:08 PM
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I would get a bullet proof vest and helmet before nv. Not saying nv is bad. Just see more practical uses for a vest. Even a ll easily hidden one.
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Old 05-12-2017, 3:27 PM
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They are all legal now until you mount them on a gun.

No substitute for good night vision.
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Old 05-12-2017, 5:50 PM
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  #13  
Old 05-12-2017, 6:34 PM
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In a SHTF scenario I'm not worried about legalities. One advantage not raised is driving without headlights. The point I was trying to make (and I fall in this category) is preppers will spend money on emergency food, etc. and have 3-4 ARs and half a dozen handguns etc. but no NV. NV allows you to function in whatever capacity or scenario at night with a super advantage over most others. As far as cheap NV, I'd not want to be in a position where I need it and it fails. As far as body armor if your not running plates it's not much use IMHO in a SHTF event.
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Old 05-12-2017, 7:01 PM
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The monocular is only a piece of it. Expect a decent laser to be $1300, plus the helmet and everything else in total will run you $6k+. Then all the ammo and time getting used to the equipment in complete darkness.
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Old 05-12-2017, 10:02 PM
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FLIR is much better than night V

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Old 05-12-2017, 11:02 PM
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Originally Posted by uparmor View Post
FLIR is much better than night V

Flir is good for finding but sucks for identification, detail, anything through glass, etc. Completely different tools
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Old 05-13-2017, 7:47 AM
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Guess I had unrealistic expectations. NV with upgrades illumination and still could not see squat beyond 30 yards. Was gearing for shooting coyotes at night.

Could not see my steer at 30 yards.
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Old 05-13-2017, 10:37 AM
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Like anything else, you get what you pay for. Don't expect 300 yards for a 1000 bucks.

A good system can easily set you back 10 grand.
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Old 05-13-2017, 1:27 PM
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Guess I had unrealistic expectations. NV with upgrades illumination and still could not see squat beyond 30 yards. Was gearing for shooting coyotes at night.

Could not see my steer at 30 yards.
Probably gen 1
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Old 05-13-2017, 1:38 PM
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Anyone have pics on what a $500-600ish monocular or FLIR setup can reveal at say 50-75 yards? I've seen some amazon listings with really good reviews/stars but still a little skeptical and trust folks here more :-) I definitely don't have 8-10k to invest in NV right now but would like the bare minimum at least.... (that FLIR pic above looks really good but that might be from a 2k+ system right?)
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Old 05-13-2017, 9:09 PM
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Originally Posted by CouchOperator View Post
Flir is good for finding but sucks for identification, detail, anything through glass, etc. Completely different tools
if its shtf and you are in my zone, you die, no ident needed, no cars will be moving, no glass. If you find glass I will shoot it out.

Use NV to ident this guy......






There is a reason why mil uses flir on drones and attack copters, police do too

Last edited by uparmor; 05-13-2017 at 9:22 PM..
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Old 05-13-2017, 9:27 PM
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This is just my opinion after having hunted pigs with a weapon-mounted NV scope several times in the last few weeks, I've come to the conclusion that my next night vision purchase will be a head-mounted monocular with a weapon mounted IR laser. IMO, the downsides of a weapon mounted model are that they're heavy and you have to point the gun where you want to look, thereby making it easier to sweep unintended targets with the muzzle.

When you have a head mounted unit (and supplemental light) and weapon mounted IR laser, you can spot and identify your target, then lase it and decide when to fire. If you're free handing a gun and waiting out a target, it gets heavy after a bit. Removing the added weight and not having to shoulder the gun for so long is a plus.
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Old 05-13-2017, 11:58 PM
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My issue is budget. For under $500 you can't get a decent NVG setup.

I'm looking at FLIR One Pro for $399.
http://www.flir.com/flirone/flironepro/
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Old 05-14-2017, 12:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by diveRN View Post
This is just my opinion after having hunted pigs with a weapon-mounted NV scope several times in the last few weeks, I've come to the conclusion that my next night vision purchase will be a head-mounted monocular with a weapon mounted IR laser. IMO, the downsides of a weapon mounted model are that they're heavy and you have to point the gun where you want to look, thereby making it easier to sweep unintended targets with the muzzle.

When you have a head mounted unit (and supplemental light) and weapon mounted IR laser, you can spot and identify your target, then lase it and decide when to fire. If you're free handing a gun and waiting out a target, it gets heavy after a bit. Removing the added weight and not having to shoulder the gun for so long is a plus.
Thats the best method (worn)
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Old 05-14-2017, 12:45 AM
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Originally Posted by uparmor View Post
if its shtf and you are in my zone, you die, no ident needed, no cars will be moving, no glass. If you find glass I will shoot it out.

Use NV to ident this guy......






There is a reason why mil uses flir on drones and attack copters, police do too
Try using 1. Good NV and not that bunkass crap in the pic and 2. Lol at your grandiose shtf plans and 3. You miss where i said they are different tools.

Neither is superior to the other as they are designed for seperate tasks.
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Old 05-14-2017, 8:53 AM
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@warboy... I was debating getting the smartphone version also due to budget but then I was thinking that you'll be illuminating yourself as you use the phone in total darkness as opposed to putting a monocular to your eye.... just what I was pondering
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Old 05-14-2017, 5:14 PM
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Default Night Vision

Smartphone attachments like FLIR1 are very low resolution (and sensitivity), good only for around the house uses (heat leaks, etc).


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Old 05-14-2017, 6:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by diveRN View Post
This is just my opinion after having hunted pigs with a weapon-mounted NV scope several times in the last few weeks, I've come to the conclusion that my next night vision purchase will be a head-mounted monocular with a weapon mounted IR laser. IMO, the downsides of a weapon mounted model are that they're heavy and you have to point the gun where you want to look, thereby making it easier to sweep unintended targets with the muzzle.

When you have a head mounted unit (and supplemental light) and weapon mounted IR laser, you can spot and identify your target, then lase it and decide when to fire. If you're free handing a gun and waiting out a target, it gets heavy after a bit. Removing the added weight and not having to shoulder the gun for so long is a plus.

That's what I was thinking also. A weapon mounted does not allow you to quickly walk or drive. A IR weapon light is not that expensive so this seems to be the optimal.
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Old 05-14-2017, 10:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lordmorgul View Post
Smartphone attachments like FLIR1 are very low resolution (and sensitivity), good only for around the house uses (heat leaks, etc).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Check out the new FLIR One Pro version that will be released soon. The detail has vastly improved.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ditryin View Post
@warboy... I was debating getting the smartphone version also due to budget but then I was thinking that you'll be illuminating yourself as you use the phone in total darkness as opposed to putting a monocular to your eye.... just what I was pondering


Hmmm, maybe time to modify a VR viewer....


Sorry guys, but I still don't see a legit, viable, sub $500 see in the dark option.

Last edited by WarBoyNux; 05-14-2017 at 10:33 PM..
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Old 05-15-2017, 7:09 AM
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I'm wondering something simple like this for $259 - 131 reviews at 4.5 average rating (out of 5) ... yes I know it's not Gen 1, 2, etc... but it also doesn't cost 3 months mortgage payments either :-)
https://www.amazon.com/Bestguarder-M...sion+monocular
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Old 05-19-2017, 1:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quiet View Post
Because of CA laws... If you are interested in night vision, look into night vision goggles or handheld (non-firearm mountable) night vision devices.

The really good firearm mounted night vision devices tend not to be CA legal due to having an active-IR source and magnification.




Basic summary of night vision devices...
Active IR scope with magnification = illegal [PC 468]
Active IR scope with no magnification = legal

Passive IR scope with magnification = legal
Passive IR scope with magnification and an IR illuminator = illegal [PC 468]
Passive IR scope with no magnifcation = legal
Passive IR scope with no magnification and an IR illuminator = legal

Active IR goggles with magnification = legal
Active IR goggles with no magnification = legal

Passive IR goggles with magnification = legal
Passive IR goggles with magnification and an IR illuminator = legal
Passive IR googles with no magnification = legal
Passive IR goggles with no magnification and an IR illuminator = legal
Everything you listed above is for "INFRA RED" (IR). That is an illuminated image dependent device that reflects its own beam imagery. NVG's (green ones) are illuminated image dependent devices but collect reflected light from external or "other" light sources. A Thermal Imaging (TA) device relys on independent reflected heat signatures.

While I haven't bothered to look up the penal code, if what you posted is a copy of the penal code verbatim, I'd wonder how a challenge would go if one used a device that was NOT an "IR" type of imaging device. Perhaps the code lists NVG and thermal imaging as well. Or maybe it lumps all light enhancing optics as illegal for hunting.

Either way, I'm not worried about it because I don't hunt with those artificial light enhancement devices as night.
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Old 05-19-2017, 5:05 PM
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Flir is great for finding people or animals hiding but is not great for ID unless you are close and spend more that 8k to even get something decent. Battery life on FLIR usually sucks. NV is the only option for effective navigating. Navigating with a monocular, even a nice gen3 kinda sucks. 2 bridged monoculars or a dedicated bino is truly what you need if winning a nighttime gunfight is the goal. This absolutely necessitates a laser. Mounting a monocular to a gun sucks. Dedicated rifle mounted NV scopes are 100times clearer and brighter.
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Old 05-19-2017, 5:26 PM
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Not really seeing applications for this device for my shtf plan. For the money there are many other toys and other items to get first.

Not having any nite guard duty plans. This NV seems better suited to specialised survival plans.
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Old 05-19-2017, 6:07 PM
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I still think it's a valuable/useable piece of gear.

The show stopper for me is that it's a nite time only niche useability piece and I cannot MacGuyver it in case it sheets the bed.

It would also be hard to follow my backup equipment plans.
2 is 1 etc..

If you have that kind of coin to drop on a couple then I tip my hat.

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Old 05-19-2017, 6:56 PM
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If you're into prepping and don't have the guns, ammo, food, med supplies an assorted survival gear stocked to what you think is appropriate then NV may not be a wise purchase. I'd counter that with the argument that a good NV bino and IR designator as others have suggested is a game changer for half of the 24 hour period. During daylight you'd be competing with others on a equal footing. They can see you, they can confront you, etc. the only way to avoid potential conflict is to hunker down during the day. At night without NV your even worse off, so your not doing much then. With NV and the key assumption here is few others will have them, one can have a serious advantage. At night with NV you can pretty much do what you want, again assuming few others have them.
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Old 05-19-2017, 9:14 PM
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^ +1. Its funny thinking light discipline doesnt just apply to white light, but IR light/lasers as well.
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Old 05-31-2017, 1:57 PM
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Here's an opinion question for the NVG equipped:

1st scenario:

Gen2+ "true" bino NVG (no PVS-7), or WPT Gen 3+ monocular?

2nd scenario

Gen2+ bino NVG or Gen 3+ (Omni VII) monocular?

3rd Scenario

Gen 2+ WPT bino NVG, or Gen 3+ (Omni VII) monocular?

I know that my answer if funding were no issue, that it would be a latest-generation WPT bino NVG system, but that isn't really an option since I don't have Uncle Sam providing me the tech.

The assumption is that also, in all cases, you already have all your other prep done (food, water, medical, etc. all acquired).

The use case would be something along the lines of mass city-wide power outage or earthquake/serious infrastructure damage or rioting.

Just curious on the thoughts of those in the know.
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Old 06-05-2017, 12:44 AM
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Get a Gen 3 OMNI VIII PVS-14. While binos offer a marginal benefit when doing stuff under nods (at double or more the cost), an unaided eye will help you read outside light conditions. Both have advantages and disadvantages. In all honesty, i recommend getting into a Mod3 system if you are torn. I have a PVS-14 with an ITT Pinnacle tube and a Mod3 housing with ANVIS optics and im considering selling the PVS14 to fund tubes for the Mod3. The Mod3 is a collimated duals setup, but the pods can be removed and attached to pvs-14-like adapters that come with the system with onboard power that turn one bino system into essentially two pvs-14's.

Mod3 in bino mode with the adapters set aside:



Pods in Monocular mode on the left, followed by my pvs-14 and then the mod3 bridge.



Roughly $7000 to build the mod3 to completion.


Regarding white phosphorous, meh. I prefer green and so do alot of people. Its pimped as the new hotness but i just dont see it being worth what theyre charging (more expensive, on average.). I was quoted $1700-1900 per tube for fantastic spec green MX10160's and white phos were $3100-3500 per tube.

Myself, my eyes prefer green and find it easier to acclaimate to natural night vision after flipping nods up after using them extended periods of time. People that run white phos alot tend to report having a harder/longer time with that transition.

Skip gen 2 completely if you have the means

Also, "Gen 3+" and "Gen 4" do not exist, but shady marketing sure does.
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Old 06-05-2017, 8:45 AM
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I largely figured out the marketing terms were just marketing which is why I included the Omni spec to denote what I was referring (it does make it easier to type, I'll say that. :P).

I own a OMNI VII mono (Insight's model), but lack of accessory support has me wondering if just switching off to a PVS-14 housing doesn't make more sense (wider availability of parts, etc.).

Having run under mono NVGs before, the only reason I thought to run binos was to get depth perception back. But, buying them and finding out it's not all it's cracked up to be, seems an expensive way to go. :P

Oh, and nice setup, btw, CouchOperator.
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Old 06-05-2017, 10:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mordak6actual View Post
I largely figured out the marketing terms were just marketing which is why I included the Omni spec to denote what I was referring (it does make it easier to type, I'll say that. :P).

I own a OMNI VII mono (Insight's model), but lack of accessory support has me wondering if just switching off to a PVS-14 housing doesn't make more sense (wider availability of parts, etc.).

Having run under mono NVGs before, the only reason I thought to run binos was to get depth perception back. But, buying them and finding out it's not all it's cracked up to be, seems an expensive way to go. :P

Oh, and nice setup, btw, CouchOperator.
Contact Glynn Sziraki at www.ownnight.com or glynn@ownnight.com Hes located in Pasadena. He'll know what itll take to put your tube in a -14 housing, and he'll do all the proper steps with correct tools to build it up.
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