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Centerfire Rifles - Manually Operated Lever action, bolt action or other non gas operated centerfire rifles.

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  #1  
Old 05-13-2017, 7:26 AM
yoteassasin yoteassasin is offline
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Default Lead free in .223

Hey so is there a consensus on what twists are suitable for what bullet weights in the lead free stuff. Id like to find the heaviest lead free bullet I can shoot in a 1:9 .normaly I would. Be shooting 69gr. I'd like to shoot the 70gr. gmx . Any thoughts ?
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Old 05-13-2017, 7:38 AM
JackEllis JackEllis is offline
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Check here: http://www.bergerbullets.com/twist-rate-calculator/

I think the answer will be, YES.
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Old 05-13-2017, 7:44 AM
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Hell yea thanks !
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Old 05-13-2017, 8:02 AM
JackEllis JackEllis is offline
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What are you going to shoot with it? Coyotes or pigs, or...? Might be overkill for squirrels.
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Old 05-13-2017, 8:28 AM
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Lead free in a 1:9 is going to be a challenge if you want a heavy.

Its not just weight, but length, and the length of a lead free is longer for a similar weight.
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Old 05-13-2017, 8:43 AM
yoteassasin yoteassasin is offline
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Yea coyotes, bucks, pigs . The 69gr sierra has been my go to for years and I'm looking to get a lead free load built up. I was worried that most of the 223 non lead bullets are varmint style and frag on impact . The 70gr gmx looks good to me.
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Old 05-13-2017, 8:49 AM
yoteassasin yoteassasin is offline
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I just picked up a mossberg mpv and I can't wait to shoot this thing. The open sight are nice I might not even put a scope on it. I've got enough scoped rifles (ar's,22-250,243) in that size range and I'm hopping to put some good mojo on this thing before my son gets a chance on his first deer in 3 or 4 years .
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Old 05-13-2017, 8:50 AM
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My 20" 223 bolt action shoots 75's, but I need to get them to fly fast to get good results.

I just FEEL that a 70 lead free in 1:9 might be overly optimistic, but I dont have any solid data to back that up and the reviews around twist rate are all over the place...

Might as well get a box and try it.
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Old 05-13-2017, 9:12 AM
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Hornady recommends a 1:7 twist for the 70gr GMX.

See this:
http://www.hornadyle.com/products/ri...mx-tap-barrier
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Old 05-13-2017, 9:44 AM
yoteassasin yoteassasin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ExtremeX View Post
My 20" 223 bolt action shoots 75's, but I need to get them to fly fast to get good results.

I just FEEL that a 70 lead free in 1:9 might be overly optimistic, but I dont have any solid data to back that up and the reviews around twist rate are all over the place...

Might as well get a box and try it.
My thoughts exactly . And it looks like Randal just schoooled us. I'll give the 55s ... I killed a bunch as a kid with 55gr sp so as long as they stay together I'll probably be ok . I'll report back
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Old 05-13-2017, 10:02 AM
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http://www.bergerbullets.com/twist-rate-calculator/

0.350 BC
0.224 caliber
70 grains weight
1.050 bullet length
2900 fps velocity

1:9 gave 1.1 SG
1:8 gave 1.38 SG
1.4 or higher SG is generally where you want to be.
1:7.75 gave 1.47 SG
1:7 gave 1.8 SG
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Old 05-13-2017, 11:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ar15barrels View Post
http://www.bergerbullets.com/twist-rate-calculator/

...
1.4 or higher SG is generally where you want to be.
1:7.75 gave 1.47 SG
1:7 gave 1.8 SG

How about the 55 grain GMX?




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Old 05-13-2017, 12:18 PM
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It will vary based on the geometry of the specific bullet. Barrel length and velocity also play an important role. You will need to shop around and try different projectiles.

Here is a 65gr bullet that is supported by a 1-9"
https://cuttingedgebullets.com/223-6...ctical-hunting
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Old 05-13-2017, 6:44 PM
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OP, the rough rule of thumb with copper (GMX) is, copper bullets 1/4 lighter than lead, or copper will perform the same as a bullet that's 1/3 heavier. If the Berger calculator shows that a 55 grain GMX is stable, it should do the job of a 70 grain lead core bonded bullet.

I might take a poke at a coyote with a .223 but for pigs, I'd rather have a little more firepower, like a .243, because I can use heavier bullets and send them downrange faster. I know there are folks who take pigs and deer with .223 but I'm just not a good enough shot to go that light.
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Old 05-13-2017, 7:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JackEllis View Post
How about the 55 grain GMX?

1.69 SG for a 55gr GMX in a 1:9 twist barrel at 3000fps.
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Old 05-13-2017, 9:30 PM
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I've been planning to work up some test loads with both the 55gr & 62gr Barnes TTSX, for my 1:8.

http://www.barnesbullets.com/bullets/ttsx/
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Old 05-14-2017, 6:38 AM
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With a 1:9 Id shoot a Barnes 55g TTSX as fast as I could. Ive used the 62g TSX in a 1:7 with gteat results on pigs.
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Old 05-14-2017, 9:44 AM
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MongooseV8 - just curious, what kind of accuracy are you getting and what powder might you be using. Charge weight not important. Planning on trying these and the 70s on my 18"1n7 this year. Thanks in advance.
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Old 05-14-2017, 10:21 AM
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Looking at the Barnes load data.
http://www.barnesbullets.com/files/2...compressed.pdf
Their recommendation for best results with the TSX & TTSX
55gr & 62gr with 1:9 or faster, are H335 for the 55gr, and Varget for the 62gr.
70gr TSX with 1:8 or faster, Power Pro 2000MR
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Old 05-14-2017, 12:21 PM
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One thing to keep in mind with monolithic projectiles is that, unlike forgiving lead jacketed bullets, you wind up with catastrophic accuracy issues when you over-twist. Solids like soft easy twists as they are far more sensitive than traditional bullets, which is why they generally work better with large caliber projectiles. I've had the best accuracy shooting from 1:10-1:15" twists. According the the Berger calculator, my best accuracy comes with an SG of 1.2 to 1.3. Partly I think it's designed for lead jacketed bullets. Also, it doesn't fully account for the varying geometries. I like to get the slowest possible twist for a given projectiles. Usually, I have a twist slower than the manufacturer's recommendation, but I make up for it with a longer barrel. Don't pick up a 1-6 or 1-7" and think you will shoot the entire spectrum well. Also, I've had better results using a stainless barrel as opposed to CM when it comes to solids. Solids don't engrave like lead, and excessive torque is not your friend. Ideally, you need to try a few and see what bullet works well in your barrel. Also, with solids, you should clean your barrel with a strong aqueous solution of ammonium hydroxide. That's the only way to get the atomized copper out of your bore. I've used wipe out, but for big barrels, I need to go through and entire can, and it is still not as clean as I like it.
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Old 05-14-2017, 4:11 PM
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I've shot a couple pigs with TTSX in .223, worked great. 1:8 barrel on a cheapo AR.

Wish something would work in my 1:12 barrel squirrel gun.
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Old 05-14-2017, 4:15 PM
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Lead free bullets like to be pushed fast with a big jump. Like at least 0.050" as a starting point. Ive used Varget H4350 CFE223 A2230 etc in over a dozen different rifles and different cartridges. Accuracy has been excellent in all, most of which are 1/2 moa or less.

Side note I only have fast twist barrels and have never had any issues with accuracy with light for caliber in a fast twist.
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Old 05-14-2017, 4:29 PM
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My 1:12 shoots 50 grain Copperhead bullets just fine.
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Old 05-15-2017, 11:03 AM
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I was able to get the Barnes 62gr TTSX to fly well out of a 1:9. The 70gr TSX, not so much. I am swapping out the barrel for a 1:7 18" Wylde, as I am inexplicably focused on getting the 70gr TSX to fly well for hunting purposes. Hoping this gets it done, but I won't know for a month or so. I will be developing loads for both the 62gr and 70gr Barnes before fall. I've heard reports of the 70gr TSX working out of a 1:9, but not in my rifle.
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Old 05-19-2017, 9:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JackEllis View Post
OP, the rough rule of thumb with copper (GMX) is, copper bullets 1/4 lighter than lead, or copper will perform the same as a bullet that's 1/3 heavier. If the Berger calculator shows that a 55 grain GMX is stable, it should do the job of a 70 grain lead core bonded bullet.

I might take a poke at a coyote with a .223 but for pigs, I'd rather have a little more firepower, like a .243, because I can use heavier bullets and send them downrange faster. I know there are folks who take pigs and deer with .223 but I'm just not a good enough shot to go that light.
I know that a lot of pigs are taken with .223's but I agree with you in that I like more firepower for pigs. No need to see how light you can go.
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Old 05-19-2017, 3:39 PM
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My buddy using .223, had to hit a yote 3 times at 450 yards to stop him and one to kill him point blank. The no-lead did not expand and passed through and through. First 3 knocked out the hind quarters, he was crawling on his fronts when he was head shot. Leaded would have taken him down in one. No-lead works ok at short range but less than stellar at 450yards. I use 6.5CM no-lead and they go down now.
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Old 05-19-2017, 10:19 PM
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If you are looking for a non frag bullet in lead free, consider this

https://cuttingedgebullets.com/224-7...match-tactical

1-7 twist recomended
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Old 05-20-2017, 2:17 AM
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Quote:
My buddy using .223, had to hit a yote 3 times at 450 yards to stop him and one to kill him point blank.
According to another member who is off hunting in Africa at the moment, copper needs speed in order to expand, and they tend not to work very well past 250-300 yards. For someone like me who knows he can't hit a critter past about 200 yards, no problem. for those who can and do shoot coyotes at longer distances, copper isn't ideal, but bullet manufacturers may be able to overcome that limitation.
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Old 05-20-2017, 5:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yoteassasin View Post
Hey so is there a consensus on what twists are suitable for what bullet weights in the lead free stuff. Id like to find the heaviest lead free bullet I can shoot in a 1:9 .normaly I would. Be shooting 69gr. I'd like to shoot the 70gr. gmx . Any thoughts ?
In my experience, the copper solids, of any type, are the wrong way to go for coyotes.
The best lead free load I have used for Yotes out of a .223, is the Barnes 55grain MLE (sometimes also listed as the MPG).
The Barnes MLE is a compressed powdered metal bullet which was designed by barnes as a green alternative for Mil / law enforcement training, and so has a tough enough copper jacket to feed in auto loaders without deforming, however delivers superior results on smaller thinner skinned critters, such as jack rabbits, and coyotes.
As with all lead free projectiles, you will find them to be a fair piece longer than their leaded cousins, and so naturally will require a faster twist to stabilize. I shoot the MLE's out of a 9 twist barrel with total reliability in all conditions/ elevations which I hunt, and the bullet does not disappoint. Hits on Jacks will turn them inside out, and strikes on yotes have proven devastating with a body shot. This being said, I would not use the MLE for anything larger than a yote, and certainly not deer as the severe instantaneous fragmentation of the bullet would likely be too destructive on the meat. My load for the MLE is 24 grains of Varget in lapua brass and a CCI BR primer. One thing to add though, lead free does not carry at longer distances as well as lead. All of the lead free bullets I have experimented with show a steep nosedive in capability beyond 300 yards. Another thing about lead free is it is always a good idea to step things up a notch if you are going to use it, so where you might have used a .22 mag it would be ideal to move up to say a .22 hornet, If you were using a Hornet, move up to .223, and if you were using a .223 jump up to 6mm, because you are going to lose some with the lead free.
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Last edited by bridgeport; 05-23-2017 at 7:59 PM..
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