Calguns.net  

Home My iTrader Join the NRA Donate to CGSSA Sponsors CGN Google Search
CA Semiauto Ban(AW)ID Flowchart CA Handgun Ban ID Flowchart CA Shotgun Ban ID Flowchart
Go Back   Calguns.net > INTERESTS AND ACTIVITIES > Ammo and Reloading
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read

Ammo and Reloading Factory Ammunition, Reloading, Components, Load Data and more.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 05-19-2017, 12:46 PM
ExtremeX's Avatar
ExtremeX ExtremeX is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: SoCal
Posts: 6,997
iTrader: 41 / 100%
Default 243 Winchester Ballistics - Cut down barrel

I currently have a Ruger American in 243 Winchester. The barrel is a 22" 1:9 twist.

I currently shoot 105gr Amax using Hybrig 100V... looks to be shooting at about 2850 FPS. Not a half bad shooting load.

I kinda bought it as a hunting / varmint rifle but don't really care to use it for that anymore.

I was thinking of cutting down the barrel, to around 16.1", just to turn it into a handy little truck gun but not sure if its just a terrible idea.

My first concern is the twist, dont know how much of a velocity hit I am going to take, and if that is going to cause stability issues with a heavy 105gr bullet.

I can always change up the load once I am done with the ammo I loaded up, and move to something like a 87gr Vmax which has shot well for my in the past. That load was using IMR 4831 @ 43.5gr, but I have no chrono data.

Leads me to my next concern; with such a short barrel and a lighter weight bullet, how much of that powder charge is just going to waste? I would venture to guess I am not getting a full burn?

Most reloading data out there is for a 24" barrel.

What could I expect from a 16" 1:9, and what would you recommend for a bullet and powder combo for a short barreled 243, or should I just move on and pick a different cartridge to use?
__________________
ExtremeX
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 05-19-2017, 2:59 PM
McGuiver's Avatar
McGuiver McGuiver is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Inland Empire
Posts: 645
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default 243 Winchester Ballistics - Cut down barrel

It would definitely hurt your speed. Figure 50 FPS loss in speed for every inch you remove as a general rule.

http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/223rifle.html

I know you have a 243 WIN, but this is the only rifle they list. Hope this helps.

If you take off 6 inches of barrel, expect to lose about 300 FPS give or take. The bullet should still stabilize.

http://www.bergerbullets.com/twist-rate-calculator/


http://www.hornady.com/ballistics-re...ics-calculator




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Last edited by McGuiver; 05-19-2017 at 3:27 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 05-19-2017, 3:15 PM
ExtremeX's Avatar
ExtremeX ExtremeX is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: SoCal
Posts: 6,997
iTrader: 41 / 100%
Default

I completely understand I was going to take a velocity hit, I just wasn't sure how much. Ill use a plug in number of 50 FPS per inch for now but not sure if that scales or translates the same other other cartridges.

I would be looking at 2550 FPS for a 105gr Amax.

I really need to chrono the 87gr V-max I have... considering it's a 243 I suspect it might still be screaming even with a 16" barrel. I am only looking for flat shooter from 0-300 yards. 400-500 yard shooting would just be for fun at the range.

That said, if you look at people who shoot things like AR pistols, it almost looks like most of the powder burn is happening outside of the rifle haha.

I also don't want too much of that so I am hoping I can still get an efficient burn with all that case capacity out of a 16" barrel.

Thanks for the insight.
__________________
ExtremeX
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 05-19-2017, 3:31 PM
McGuiver's Avatar
McGuiver McGuiver is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Inland Empire
Posts: 645
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

As a general rule you can figure 50 FPS. On my Mosin Nagant that has a 29" barrel vs a 24 inch, I have gained an average of 77 FPS for every inch over 24" with the common load data. I'm just burning the powder completely up. 50 FPS for every inch is a good rule. Remember the rifle will be louder, but should reach out to 300 yards with no problem.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 05-19-2017, 5:25 PM
rsrocket1 rsrocket1 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 1,875
iTrader: 11 / 100%
Default

For a truck gun, hopefully you aren't shooting beyond 100 yards and you are settling for about 3 MOA. If that's the case, you'll be fine. If that's not the case, you need to ask yourself what am I shooting at (size) and how far do I expect to be shooting and is convenience more important than absolute accuracy. The Army issued the 30 M1 carbine as a substitute for 1911's for the people who don't train and are not accurate enough to handle a 1911 which was a short range weapon to begin with, not as a substitute for the M1 Garand.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 05-19-2017, 5:44 PM
ExtremeX's Avatar
ExtremeX ExtremeX is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: SoCal
Posts: 6,997
iTrader: 41 / 100%
Default

If I am getting a general accuracy area of around 1 MOA across my different loads, why would it be any different after chopping down that barrel and re-working that load (if needed) to make sure I am still in a good node. If anything it should get better with a shorter and now more ridge barrel.

100 yards is nothing, and a 243 is a smoker.... even with my 223 with a 16" barrel 300 yards isn't that hard. Minimal drop and within a good point blank range. I would imagine a 243 being even better within that distance. I used to shoot this thing out to 1000 yards on 12x12 inch steel. If it reduced my max effective range to 300-400 I would be fine with that. Heck, if it reduced it down to 200 yards with excellent terminal performance I would be okay with that too.

That said, I'm not building this as a target rifle... and before I go out and buy a Ruger Ranch, I wanted to consider chopping down something I already own and rarely use anymore.

Its basically an extension to this thread if you care to read it... it pretty much outlines my application and use case. In a nutshell... its something I plan on just keeping in my off-road truck as a personal protection / camping gun. I just want something decent and inexpensive. Some of the places I off-road I can't shoot at, but that doesn't mean I won't take at least one easy to pack rifle.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s....php?t=1335794

And as far as my target applications go... already got some other heavy barreled rifles that do a pretty nice job... so if I do need to play, ill be using other things anyways.
__________________
ExtremeX

Last edited by ExtremeX; 05-19-2017 at 6:02 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 05-19-2017, 6:41 PM
rsrocket1 rsrocket1 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 1,875
iTrader: 11 / 100%
Default

Barrel harmonics are directly related to length. A load optimized for a 24" barrel will act very differently in a 20" gun and different in a 16" gun. Store bought ammo is a compromise to be "somewhat" accurate" in all length guns. Don't believe me? Try it. I think it would be sheer coincidence if you can get 1 MOA out of a 16" gun with your 1 MOA loads in a 24" gun. I'm not saying it's because you cut the barrel down, I'm saying because your barrel is a different length. That means your optimized 24" load may be worse in a 26" gun.

You don't believe it? Go ahead and cut your barrel down and show a 2" group at 200 yards. You may be absolutely right. The thing is if it's more important to have a more portable gun, then by all means do it.

Good luck. We would all like to see before and after groups with the same loads.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 05-19-2017, 7:07 PM
kcstott's Avatar
kcstott kcstott is offline
Toolmaker Extraordinaire
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: National City Socal
Posts: 9,094
iTrader: 12 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ExtremeX View Post
I currently have a Ruger American in 243 Winchester. The barrel is a 22" 1:9 twist.

I currently shoot 105gr Amax using Hybrig 100V... looks to be shooting at about 2850 FPS. Not a half bad shooting load.

I kinda bought it as a hunting / varmint rifle but don't really care to use it for that anymore.

I was thinking of cutting down the barrel, to around 16.1", just to turn it into a handy little truck gun but not sure if its just a terrible idea.

My first concern is the twist, dont know how much of a velocity hit I am going to take, and if that is going to cause stability issues with a heavy 105gr bullet.

I can always change up the load once I am done with the ammo I loaded up, and move to something like a 87gr Vmax which has shot well for my in the past. That load was using IMR 4831 @ 43.5gr, but I have no chrono data.

Leads me to my next concern; with such a short barrel and a lighter weight bullet, how much of that powder charge is just going to waste? I would venture to guess I am not getting a full burn?

Most reloading data out there is for a 24" barrel.

What could I expect from a 16" 1:9, and what would you recommend for a bullet and powder combo for a short barreled 243, or should I just move on and pick a different cartridge to use?

About 20-30 FPS per inch of barrel loss so on the outside a loss of 240fps would not be unexpected. it's not as bad as you'd think, but there are powders you can use to reduce the loss in velocity
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by ar15barrels View Post
Dick.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tujungatoes View Post
That guy is a hack. He worked on one of my ak's and now the damn thing only shoots .50 cal bullets.
The above statement i consider a term of endearment
Need prints for your build? Need reference materials for Gunsmithing projects, Click Here
I fear that even though as tough as life has been for me I have only begun to pay for my sins.
Don't forget to have your Liberals spayed or neutered !
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 05-19-2017, 7:22 PM
JagerDog's Avatar
JagerDog JagerDog is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: South SF Bay Area
Posts: 7,961
iTrader: 16 / 100%
Default

Gonna be one loud mutha.

As for Trailboss, why would a case full of .308 work vs a case full in .223 be "not enough"? FWIW, Hodgdn list 4gr of Trailboss and 3gr of Titegroup with 55gr bullet. Similar can be done with Red Dot.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by RazoE View Post
Holy crap. There's some seriously screwed up people on this board. Looks like CA needs even more gun control.


#Blackolivesmatter

Last edited by JagerDog; 05-19-2017 at 7:29 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 05-19-2017, 8:48 PM
AGGRO's Avatar
AGGRO AGGRO is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: San Diego
Posts: 1,414
iTrader: 7 / 100%
Default

Just get an ar upper in 6.5 with that barrel length. Done. Leave that bolt gun alone to do what it's meant to do.


A .243 is not meant to be a shorty rifle.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 05-19-2017, 9:10 PM
ExtremeX's Avatar
ExtremeX ExtremeX is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: SoCal
Posts: 6,997
iTrader: 41 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rsrocket1 View Post
Barrel harmonics are directly related to length. A load optimized for a 24" barrel will act very differently in a 20" gun and different in a 16" gun. Store bought ammo is a compromise to be "somewhat" accurate" in all length guns. Don't believe me? Try it. I think it would be sheer coincidence if you can get 1 MOA out of a 16" gun with your 1 MOA loads in a 24" gun. I'm not saying it's because you cut the barrel down, I'm saying because your barrel is a different length. That means your optimized 24" load may be worse in a 26" gun.

You don't believe it? Go ahead and cut your barrel down and show a 2" group at 200 yards. You may be absolutely right. The thing is if it's more important to have a more portable gun, then by all means do it.

Good luck. We would all like to see before and after groups with the same loads.
haha... I believe you man, and I don't even expect it to shoot the same. Plus barrel length isn't directly related to accuracy anyways, so i'm not worried about it.

I know I am going to have a velocity drop.
I know I am going to have a POI shift across my entire dope card.
I know I might need to re-work that load.

The entire point of reloading is to match that load to the rifle, barrel, harmonics, reducing the exit whip, all that fancy technical mumbo jumbo which I am familiar with and understand.

Reading is fundamental...I am going to quote myself...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ExtremeX View Post
If I am getting a general accuracy area of around 1 MOA across my different loads, why would it be any different after chopping down that barrel and re-working that load (if needed) to make sure I am still in a good node.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ExtremeX View Post
I can always change up the load once I am done with the ammo I loaded up, and move to something like a 87gr Vmax which has shot well for my in the past.
I am a pretty experience reloader, and I never once said I was shooting factory ammo. I thought that would have been pretty clear from my first post.

If it shot 1 MOA or better before, it will shoot 1 MOA or better again. Now with a shorter more ridged barrel, should be even easier to accomplish.

And the point of this thread wasn't to go down the path of general accuracy... I was just trying to get some technical information of terminal ballistics, velocity, effective range, and powder burn efficiency.

I was even prepared to completely buy a new powder because I know I am going to be blasting gas out the front. Plus I didn't even think my 105s were going to remain stable anyways with a 1:9 but looks like I will be fine. I was just trying to collect some general data so I can make an informed decision.
__________________
ExtremeX

Last edited by ExtremeX; 05-19-2017 at 9:26 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 05-19-2017, 10:11 PM
ExtremeX's Avatar
ExtremeX ExtremeX is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: SoCal
Posts: 6,997
iTrader: 41 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AGGRO View Post
Just get an ar upper in 6.5 with that barrel length. Done. Leave that bolt gun alone to do what it's meant to do.


A .243 is not meant to be a shorty rifle.
a 6.5 what? Creedmoor, Grendel?

243 is a 6mm, it's right up there with those other cartridges... 6mm is going to yield higher velocity figures than the Creedmoor if we are talking large frame AR.

The Grendel is nice, but the typical barrel is still 18" to 24" and less case capacity. Doesn't look like its going to be as high performance as a 308 case neck down to 6mm, which is basically what the 243 is.

Either way, I don't really want an AR. Sticking to a bolt action on this one.

But thanks for the input.
__________________
ExtremeX
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 05-20-2017, 5:00 AM
kcstott's Avatar
kcstott kcstott is offline
Toolmaker Extraordinaire
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: National City Socal
Posts: 9,094
iTrader: 12 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ExtremeX View Post
a 6.5 what? Creedmoor, Grendel?

243 is a 6mm, it's right up there with those other cartridges... 6mm is going to yield higher velocity figures than the Creedmoor if we are talking large frame AR.

The Grendel is nice, but the typical barrel is still 18" to 24" and less case capacity. Doesn't look like its going to be as high performance as a 308 case neck down to 6mm, which is basically what the 243 is.

Either way, I don't really want an AR. Sticking to a bolt action on this one.

But thanks for the input.
Don't you love it when you ask "where can I find a good steak dinner" and they tell you "what you really want is a pork chop"??
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by ar15barrels View Post
Dick.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tujungatoes View Post
That guy is a hack. He worked on one of my ak's and now the damn thing only shoots .50 cal bullets.
The above statement i consider a term of endearment
Need prints for your build? Need reference materials for Gunsmithing projects, Click Here
I fear that even though as tough as life has been for me I have only begun to pay for my sins.
Don't forget to have your Liberals spayed or neutered !
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 05-20-2017, 6:46 AM
AGGRO's Avatar
AGGRO AGGRO is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: San Diego
Posts: 1,414
iTrader: 7 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ExtremeX View Post
a 6.5 what? Creedmoor, Grendel?

243 is a 6mm, it's right up there with those other cartridges... 6mm is going to yield higher velocity figures than the Creedmoor if we are talking large frame AR.

The Grendel is nice, but the typical barrel is still 18" to 24" and less case capacity. Doesn't look like its going to be as high performance as a 308 case neck down to 6mm, which is basically what the 243 is.

Either way, I don't really want an AR. Sticking to a bolt action on this one.

But thanks for the input.
You keep saying "high performance" but want to go the opposite direction. You can cut it down sure. They already make a ruger shorty in 16 inch so it's already been done. Huge muzzle blast. I'd be more concerned that no one would want to ever buy it from you for a decent price.

Maybe try a lighter pill and something like 4895 to make up some of the velocity and blast. Good luck if you do.

Last edited by AGGRO; 05-20-2017 at 7:01 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 05-20-2017, 7:45 AM
McGuiver's Avatar
McGuiver McGuiver is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Inland Empire
Posts: 645
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default 243 Winchester Ballistics - Cut down barrel

Here is the most accurate answer you will probably get.

This was just done a little over a year ago.

http://rifleshooter.com/2016/04/243-...h-on-velocity/



Exactly in your caliber. Good reading.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Last edited by McGuiver; 05-20-2017 at 8:13 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 05-20-2017, 9:05 AM
ExtremeX's Avatar
ExtremeX ExtremeX is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: SoCal
Posts: 6,997
iTrader: 41 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AGGRO View Post
You keep saying "high performance" but want to go the opposite direction. You can cut it down sure. They already make a ruger shorty in 16 inch so it's already been done. Huge muzzle blast. I'd be more concerned that no one would want to ever buy it from you for a decent price.

Maybe try a lighter pill and something like 4895 to make up some of the velocity and blast. Good luck if you do.
The thought about resale has crossed my mind... and I agree, it would be an uphill battle if I wanted to move it.

I do have a bunch of H4895, its my primary powder for my 308... and the Hodgdon website does show a lot of compatible loads across a wide range of bullets. If I go though with this, this might be my best bet.

Selling this thing now and getting something else isn't out of the question either, but I wanted to explore this first because I already have the thing, brass, dies, and all that other stuff.
__________________
ExtremeX
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 05-20-2017, 9:07 AM
ExtremeX's Avatar
ExtremeX ExtremeX is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: SoCal
Posts: 6,997
iTrader: 41 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by McGuiver View Post
Here is the most accurate answer you will probably get.

This was just done a little over a year ago.

http://rifleshooter.com/2016/04/243-...h-on-velocity/


Exactly in your caliber. Good reading.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Awesome post... thanks a lot for this one.
__________________
ExtremeX
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 05-20-2017, 11:07 AM
AGGRO's Avatar
AGGRO AGGRO is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: San Diego
Posts: 1,414
iTrader: 7 / 100%
Default

Consider a ruger mini in 6.8 spc if you can find it if you sell that .243. Looks like an awesome truck gun.

Mine is a win 94 with the http://www.hornady.com/store/leverevolution

150 grainer round. They do make bolt guns in 6.8 too. My other truck gun is a 95 in 8x56 and kicks like a donkey but with open sights right on at 200 yards with 208 grain bullet. I do like the way you think. I'm always working on my guns for whatever reason.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 05-20-2017, 11:07 PM
McGuiver's Avatar
McGuiver McGuiver is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Inland Empire
Posts: 645
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default 243 Winchester Ballistics - Cut down barrel

If you are going it cut it down to a 16" barrel, a 80gr bullet would easily carry to 600 yards. You will be about 2800 FPS with a 80gr bullet.

I routinely shoot 80gr bullets out of my AR out to 600 yards in AZ at about the same speed. You could even try IMR 8208 XBR powder. I have had really good luck with it. The powder can be a bit more pricey, but it is not temp sensitive, and shot to shot consistency is really good at 600 yards.

Here is some data on Hodgdon's web site for IMR 8208 XBR. You are going to want about the fastest powder on the chart for a given bullet to make up for the shorter barrel length.

A 80gr bullet would be great for a truck gun. When I take my AR with me in my truck, I have a variety of rounds. Lightest to heaviest is 40gr Nosler's, 55gr FMJ, 62gr SP, 77gr HPBT, and 80gr HPBT. All my 5.56 rounds will fit into a magazine, but not the 80gr Nosler's or SMK's. They are to long and must be fed thru the ejection port. I know the 77 and 80gr bullets are close, but the 80gr bullets buck the wind better (better BC). 80gr will take out a dear or coyote at 400 yards and in. 40gr are good for varmints. Others are good for personal defense too. Just food for thought.




http://www.wwpowder.com/PDF/Burn%20R...02015-2016.pdf






Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Last edited by McGuiver; 05-20-2017 at 11:20 PM..
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 7:49 AM.




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Proudly hosted by GeoVario the Premier 2A host.
Calguns.net, the 'Calguns' name and all associated variants and logos are ® Trademark and © Copyright 2002-2016, Calguns.net an Incorporated Company All Rights Reserved.