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  #1  
Old 07-07-2008, 12:00 PM
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Default NFA Trusts (EDIT: Fee Added)

I have been approached by quite a few people interested in NFA Trusts. I am currently researching the issue and expect to be able to draw these up very soon.

Just wanted to put this out there so that people didn't think I had forgotten about them.



EDIT: thread updated - see this post http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...3&postcount=97

Last edited by oaklander; 02-13-2011 at 11:25 PM..
  #2  
Old 07-07-2008, 1:02 PM
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Do you need a LE sign off for a trust? As a class 3 holder I think you do but not 100%.

Plus I know the ATF wont give you a stamp if its not allowed in your state.

Just some things you prolly already know.
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  #3  
Old 07-07-2008, 1:05 PM
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Thats one of the main points of a trust, no LE sign off. No fingerprints or photos either.

ATF has given CA trusts tax stamps for CA-legal NFA items.
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  #4  
Old 07-07-2008, 3:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ke6guj View Post
Thats one of the main points of a trust, no LE sign off. No fingerprints or photos either.

ATF has given CA trusts tax stamps for CA-legal NFA items.
Enlighten me: what NFA items would be CA-legal?
  #5  
Old 07-07-2008, 5:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DesertGunner View Post
Enlighten me: what NFA items would be CA-legal?
There is a thread about this if you search.

Basically AOWs, and C&R SBSs/SBRs are CA legal NFA items.

Sound suppressors, MGs, and non-C&R SBSs/SBRs are not.
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  #6  
Old 07-14-2008, 7:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffM View Post
Basically AOWs, and C&R SBSs/SBRs are CA legal NFA items.

Sound suppressors, MGs, and non-C&R SBSs/SBRs are not.
Hmm, so does this mean that with:
1) $600 NFA trust
2) $250 NFA tax stamp
3) $50 80 year old rusty POS shotgun with a ringed barrel
it would then be legal to cut on the dotted lines?



Assuming this would be legal, would the resulting very short 80 year old POS shotgun then be considered "transferrable" under NFA rules?

And would the POS be worth the $900 invested until/unless NFA gets overturned, thus immensely de-valuing it along with all of those $10k Sten tube guns?

Please forgive me if these are dumb questions. I haven't seen much reason to seriously look into NFA weapons before.
  #7  
Old 07-15-2008, 3:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 383green View Post
Hmm, so does this mean that with:
1) $600 NFA trust
2) $250 NFA tax stamp
3) $50 80 year old rusty POS shotgun with a ringed barrel
it would then be legal to cut on the dotted lines?

Why stop at the dotted line in front? Get that puppy right down to the end of the wood.

BTW, do you have any more rusty $50 shotguns lying around?
  #8  
Old 10-02-2010, 2:13 PM
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LOVE THIS THREAD!!

This thread reminds me of the kind of discussion in what 95% of what Calguns USED to be. Ironically, I see a lot of old names posting in it.

All good stuff!

.
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  #9  
Old 07-07-2008, 5:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DesertGunner View Post
Enlighten me: what NFA items would be CA-legal?
Technically, just about everything is CA legal if you have CLEO sign-off and a CADOJ permit.

Practically, only C&R SBS/SBR, DDs under .60", and AOWs (except pen-guns). They also need to comply with the AW regs.

I'd take any more specific NFA firearms questions to the AOW/SBS/SBR thread, http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...ad.php?t=82693 so we don't further hi-jack oaklander's NFA trust thread.
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  #10  
Old 01-26-2009, 2:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DesertGunner View Post
Enlighten me: what NFA items would be CA-legal?
Federally, anything over .50 cal is a "Destructive Device".
In California, anything over .60 cal is a "Destructive Device".

This has me drooling over the idea of picking something up that's under .60 cal, but over .50 cal!
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  #11  
Old 03-03-2009, 6:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AaronHorrocks View Post
Federally, anything over .50 cal is a "Destructive Device".
In California, anything over .60 cal is a "Destructive Device".

This has me drooling over the idea of picking something up that's under .60 cal, but over .50 cal!
So, with the stamp I can legally own and possess a .50 BMG rifle?
  #12  
Old 07-07-2008, 1:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oaklander View Post
I have been approached by quite a few people interested in NFA Trusts. I am currently researching the issue and expect to be able to draw these up very soon.

Just wanted to put this out there so that people didn't think I had forgotten about them.

Thanks for your effort!
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  #13  
Old 07-07-2008, 4:38 PM
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I think you can make a short bbl shotgun.
  #14  
Old 07-07-2008, 4:38 PM
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  #15  
Old 07-07-2008, 5:37 PM
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Ooh.
What is the approx cost, normal NFA trust set up, standard, no outside issues, etc to set up a trust for NFA guns?
Thanks
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  #16  
Old 07-07-2008, 5:43 PM
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good to know, thanks for tackling this.-cam
  #17  
Old 07-07-2008, 11:32 PM
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PM Sent.
  #18  
Old 07-07-2008, 6:09 PM
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Did somebody say "AOW"???

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  #19  
Old 07-07-2008, 6:38 PM
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As is, that AK pistol is not an AOW. Planning on putting the forward grip back on? There is another calgunner planning on the same thing, getting an AOW form 1 so he can put the forward grip back on.
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  #20  
Old 07-07-2008, 7:19 PM
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Yep, I'd like to put the front grip back on. Still have to keep the BB, but oh well. I'll live I guess
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  #21  
Old 07-07-2008, 9:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thedrickel View Post
Yep, I'd like to put the front grip back on. Still have to keep the BB, but oh well. I'll live I guess
I thought that AOW was exempt from CA's dumb bans?
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  #22  
Old 07-07-2008, 9:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M. Sage View Post
I thought that AOW was exempt from CA's dumb bans?
Remember, a federally registered AOW is exempt from only 12020 prohibitions. All other sections of the PC may still apply.

The pistol AW regs may apply per
Quote:
12001. (a)(1) As used in this title, the terms "pistol," "revolver," and "firearm capable of being concealed upon the person" shall apply to and include any device designed to be used as a weapon, from which is expelled a projectile by the force of any explosion, or other form of combustion, and that has a barrel less than 16 inches in length. These terms also include any device that has a barrel 16 inches or more in length which is designed to be interchanged with a barrel less than 16 inches in length.
(2) As used in this title, the term "handgun" means any "pistol," "revolver," or "firearm capable of being concealed upon the person."

(b) As used in this title, "firearm" means any device, designed to be used as a weapon, from which is expelled through a barrel a projectile by the force of any explosion or other form of combustion.

(f) Nothing shall prevent a device defined as a "handgun," "pistol," "revolver," or "firearm capable of being concealed upon the person" from also being found to be a short-barreled shotgun or a short-barreled rifle, as defined in Section 12020.
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Do you want an AOW or C&R SBS/SBR in CA?

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  #23  
Old 07-07-2008, 9:26 PM
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Ah, that's it. I forgot. Thanks for reminding me.
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  #24  
Old 07-07-2008, 7:36 PM
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Mmm, serbu super shorty sounds mighty appealing. Would be nice to have a 12ga in the dresser drawer

ETA: Oh my, I just got giddy at the thought of OCing a serbu super shorty since is not classified as a shotgun and i think there may be no prohibition on the OC of an AOW.
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Last edited by LOW2000; 07-07-2008 at 7:48 PM..
  #25  
Old 07-07-2008, 7:43 PM
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Hey Oak - how much you charging per?

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  #26  
Old 07-07-2008, 8:59 PM
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Not sure yet. I will know in a couple of days. . .

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Hey Oak - how much you charging per?

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Old 07-07-2008, 9:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oaklander View Post
Not sure yet. I will know in a couple of days. . .
Looking forward for the info.


How about someone coming up with a list of ideas of what to buy. Kind of like a shopping cart...err..wishlist of what to get

-bb
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  #28  
Old 07-07-2008, 9:13 PM
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Originally Posted by blackberg View Post
How about someone coming up with a list of ideas of what to buy. Kind of like a shopping cart...err..wishlist of what to get

-bb
Basically any AOW that is not a pen-gun and does not run afoul of the pistol AW regs. AR-pistol AOWs should be ok, but they still need to be fixed-mag.

And C&R SBS/SBRs are ok as well.

And I gues if you really wanted a big boomer, you could make something in 14.5mm Russian or find one of these, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PTRD .
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  #29  
Old 07-11-2008, 12:41 PM
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OK - the waiting is over - the fee is $600.



Anyone who is interested is welcome to PM me - I can start immediately!

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Hey Oak - how much you charging per?

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  #30  
Old 03-09-2010, 6:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m24armorer View Post
Tomorrow I will give you guys a link to NFA trusts, it's on a favorite silencer forum. And it works.
Updates?

Quote:
Originally Posted by oaklander View Post
The main idea is to make sure that the trust, by its operation, never creates an illegal situation. This has to remain true now, 20 years from now, 40 years from now, etc. . .

BUT, please, please, please make sure that you have a lawyer who is familiar with NFA issues review the completed document before you submit it to the ATF.

There is simply too much at risk to attempt to save a few bucks on something like this.
True. Too many people try to save a buck only to end up spending more bucks to clean up the mess they made. Then they expect a lawyer to work miracles to save them from themselves.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Telperion View Post
I've read into the use of NFA trusts since they became widely known. It seems the common places where the legality of ownership comes into question are:

- someone other than trustee in possession
- trustee unable to serve, or legally disabled from possession
- beneficiary legally disabled from possession
- situations arising from a trust merger

Again, I've seen a lot of innuendo from lawyers, but I'd like to hear specifics of why Willmaker trusts are deficient.
Pretty much where you pointed it out... Willmaker and those fill in the blank trusts do not take into account the 3rd party or 4th party actions that may arise when the trust is exercised by operation of law. Not to get into specfics but the way a trust operates, sometimes people who are not covered in your original intent becomes involved, which can be tricky when it comes to NFA items.
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Old 07-07-2008, 7:58 PM
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Hello, also wondering how much would you be charging for your service? I know there are programs that you can buy that will draft a quick Trust for you.
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Old 07-07-2008, 9:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Richy View Post
Hello, also wondering how much would you be charging for your service? I know there are programs that you can buy that will draft a quick Trust for you.
There are some people doing it that way. I would not advise it. Based on my preliminary research, there appear to be some issues specific to NFA Trusts that the off-the-shelf programs do not accommodate. Without going into specifics, you do not want a situation where the operation of a trust could later create an illegality.

I will have more details in a couple of days.
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Old 07-07-2008, 9:45 PM
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I would be interested, but I would like to know specifics about the "value added" over Quicken Willmaker trusts, which have shown to be perfectly adequate as NFA ownership vehicles in other states.

I understand some lawyers who have advertised specialized NFA trusts have highlighted the issues regarding transfer after the grantor's death. It seems to me that leaving a detailed letter of instruction to the successor trustee along with a partly completed form 5 would take care of these issues. Am I mistaken, and are there other concerns?

Last edited by Telperion; 07-07-2008 at 9:49 PM..
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Old 07-07-2008, 11:38 PM
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The main idea is to make sure that the trust, by its operation, never creates an illegal situation. This has to remain true now, 20 years from now, 40 years from now, etc. . .

If you, or anyone else for that matter, wishes to use commercially available software to generate a revocable living "NFA trust" - by all means, give it a shot - and let me know how it works. . .



BUT, please, please, please make sure that you have a lawyer who is familiar with NFA issues review the completed document before you submit it to the ATF.

There is simply too much at risk to attempt to save a few bucks on something like this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Telperion View Post
I would be interested, but I would like to know specifics about the "value added" over Quicken Willmaker trusts, which have shown to be perfectly adequate as NFA ownership vehicles in other states.

I understand some lawyers who have advertised specialized NFA trusts have highlighted the issues regarding transfer after the grantor's death. It seems to me that leaving a detailed letter of instruction to the successor trustee along with a partly completed form 5 would take care of these issues. Am I mistaken, and are there other concerns?
  #35  
Old 07-08-2008, 7:29 AM
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I've read into the use of NFA trusts since they became widely known. It seems the common places where the legality of ownership comes into question are:

- someone other than trustee in possession
- trustee unable to serve, or legally disabled from possession
- beneficiary legally disabled from possession
- situations arising from a trust merger

Again, I've seen a lot of innuendo from lawyers, but I'd like to hear specifics of why Willmaker trusts are deficient.
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Old 07-08-2008, 8:45 AM
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It is not proper for me to answer specific legal questions here. Nor do I wish to debate the relative costs vs. benefits of using a real lawyer versus using a "lawyer-in-a-box."

The purpose of this thread was simply to give a "status update" to the people who have contacted me in the past about NFA trusts. I'd like to stay on topic.

You sound like you have done a lot of research on NFA trusts. That's a good thing. I would still strongly recommend that you have an experienced attorney look over the resulting document that you create.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Telperion View Post
I've read into the use of NFA trusts since they became widely known. It seems the common places where the legality of ownership comes into question are:

- someone other than trustee in possession
- trustee unable to serve, or legally disabled from possession
- beneficiary legally disabled from possession
- situations arising from a trust merger

Again, I've seen a lot of innuendo from lawyers, but I'd like to hear specifics of why Willmaker trusts are deficient.
  #37  
Old 07-11-2008, 6:08 PM
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Do income tax returns need to be filed on trusts, even if there is no money made?
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  #38  
Old 07-11-2008, 8:03 PM
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Originally Posted by ptoguy2002 View Post
Do income tax returns need to be filed on trusts, even if there is no money made?
Not necessary....
  #39  
Old 07-11-2008, 8:47 PM
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[crying mode]

but i want a supressor...

[/crying mode]
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  #40  
Old 07-11-2008, 9:37 PM
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ok, here goes the bank account again. . . .
first it was OLL's. . . .
then it was ammo. . .
now its NFA. . . . . .

my kids didnt need a college education anyways. . . .
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I don't like getting my butt kicked, but I would like to have it spanked by some big hairy guys!
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Originally Posted by ohsmily View Post
I wouldn't put "mounting a weasel" past too many people on this forum.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hoffmang View Post
Going after the NFA soon is like asking the girl you just met in the bar if she's into anal sex...
-Gene
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