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Centerfire Rifles - Manually Operated Lever action, bolt action or other non gas operated centerfire rifles.

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  #1  
Old 05-29-2018, 8:16 PM
wbrewski wbrewski is offline
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Default Saco extractor

Is there anybody local in So Ca. that will change out the extractor on a Rem 700 bolt. to the saco xtractor?
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Old 05-29-2018, 8:53 PM
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There is a guy in Petaluma who does them if you can mail the bolt?
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Old 05-29-2018, 9:01 PM
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^^^ interesting.

seems to me, if Randall doesn't do it, it doesn't need done.
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Old 05-30-2018, 4:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wbrewski View Post
Is there anybody local in So Ca. that will change out the extractor on a Rem 700 bolt. to the saco xtractor?
just curious why you want the sako extractor?
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Old 05-30-2018, 4:50 AM
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Originally Posted by LynnJr View Post


There is a guy in Petaluma who does them if you can mail the bolt?
I'd like this guy's information. What does he charge?
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Old 05-30-2018, 5:18 AM
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Jim's Precision 707-762-3014 I don't remember what he charged me but give him a call and he should be able to fix you up.
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Old 06-08-2018, 7:14 AM
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Old 06-09-2018, 12:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wbrewski View Post
Is there anybody local in So Ca. that will change out the extractor on a Rem 700 bolt. to the saco xtractor?
I don't recommend converting a factory remington bolt to a sako extractor.
When you change the location of the extractor from the middle of the left lug to ABOVE the left lug without also rotating the ejector plunger in the boltface, you are dramatically changing the ejection angle.



The ejection angle is a product of the extractor location combined with the ejector plunger location.
The 700 action was designed with the extractor in the middle of the left lug and then the ejector plunger is located to get the fired case to fly out of the ejection port.
Changing the location of the extractor is changing the design of the action.



I have seen lots of problems where the fired cases will bounce off the scope knob and end up backwards in the action.

If you want to change to a different type of extractor, the right solution is to get a whole new bolt with the extractor cut already made and the ejector rotated appropriately in the boltface.
PTG makes them to order.
Figure on having the headspace and maybe the endspace corrected on your barrel as well if you are NOT also rebarrelling when you get the new bolt.
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Old 06-09-2018, 7:03 AM
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If the Rem/Sako fails you will get it right in the chops. Sako bolts have a baffle to prevent this, 700's do not. The Mini 16 is a safer option. I can supply one that does not require the barrel counter bore to be opened up to a nominal .785".
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Old 06-09-2018, 7:29 AM
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That settles this idea
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Old 06-09-2018, 12:58 PM
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Sounds like kendog knows what's what.
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Old 06-09-2018, 1:21 PM
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Default Saco extractor

Quote:
Originally Posted by ar15barrels View Post
I don't recommend converting a factory remington bolt to a sako extractor.
When you change the location of the extractor from the middle of the left lug to ABOVE the left lug without also rotating the ejector plunger in the boltface, you are dramatically changing the ejection angle.



The ejection angle is a product of the extractor location combined with the ejector plunger location.
The 700 action was designed with the extractor in the middle of the left lug and then the ejector plunger is located to get the fired case to fly out of the ejection port.
Changing the location of the extractor is changing the design of the action.



I have seen lots of problems where the fired cases will bounce off the scope knob and end up backwards in the action.

If you want to change to a different type of extractor, the right solution is to get a whole new bolt with the extractor cut already made and the ejector rotated appropriately in the boltface.
PTG makes them to order.
Figure on having the headspace and maybe the endspace corrected on your barrel as well if you are NOT also rebarrelling when you get the new bolt.
R-

Not sure what the exact extractor is on my Deviants, but the looks like the extractor location is kinda like your image; but the ejector plunger is moved like you mentioned.


Anyway, they are not where my Remingtonís are. The extraction has always been trouble free clean and sharp on 6mm, 6.5, 308 and 338; Often and if your fast, the brass can be caught in the same hand that works the bolt.

As far as getting a face full of gas/powder in the chops, thatís ďonlyĒ happened to me 2x (lol) on a Remington and it fín hurt. Both times it was my fault.

The first time, I was on the line with a small group practicing on moving stick balloons hoping to make the selection thru school.. Not sure if it hurt more, or if I was more embarrassed. I think once the blood dried from all the tiny holes, it was the ladder.






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Old 06-09-2018, 8:58 PM
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Blown primer?
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Old 06-10-2018, 6:30 AM
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Default Saco extractor

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Blown primer?


Case rupture in a magnum. I had lots of case head ruptures but they still seal and gasses go down the barrel. This was a complete vertical rupture of a smaller dia case that headspaced like the magnum, but could not seal. It was violent enough that at first I thought the bolt hit me..


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Old 06-10-2018, 7:51 AM
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The Sako extractors are usually installed to solve an extraction issue not to create one.
The extractors location varies by manufacturer with some entirely on the lug and some well clear of it.
The mini 16 is a Sako extractor just wider and longer. The M16 is a mini 16 just wider and longer.
If you shoot a 50BMG with a 800 grain bullet and 258 grains of powder they have an extractor that is exactly like the Sako only way wide of the lug.
The Mauser actions and the Enfield's have them 180 degrees apart and on both lugs when pulling a case.
If your chambering requires a specialty extractor get it and don't worry about it as thousands of shooters do it daily.
If your just adding it without any other reason buy some lotto tickets as the schools can spend the money and you might even get lucky.
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Old 06-10-2018, 8:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by diver160651 View Post
Case rupture in a magnum. I had lots of case head ruptures but they still seal and gasses go down the barrel. This was a complete vertical rupture of a smaller dia case that headspaced like the magnum, but could not seal. It was violent enough that at first I thought the bolt hit me..


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Ouch. The nice thing about Howa/Weatherby Vanguard are those gas ports in the bolt, just in case. Is that sort of mod often done on Remingtons?
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Old 06-10-2018, 9:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LynnJr View Post
...The mini 16 is a Sako extractor just wider and longer. The M16 is a mini 16 just wider and longer.



The main difference is the method of retention. The Sako is toggled in place and the M/Mini 16 is cross-pinned. SUPPOSEDLY a higher threshold of force is needed to blow it. At least that's what Dave Kiff told me during one of his quadruple espresso/Red Bull/Rock Star driven diatribes.
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Old 06-10-2018, 10:03 AM
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KenDog
Yeah the only difference I see is the pivot point.
I was going to take some photos but got lazy.
I am actually waiting on Dave to send me 2 M16 extractors because they sent me the minis by mistake. I haven't broken any but two of our shooters did and I wanted some spares just in case.
The BAT actions use a sliding extractor on the lug and the McMillan actions don't use a ejector just an extractor. The McMillan is very close to a Sako but the location is even further from the lug.
The pictures show 3 BAT bolts with the sliding extractors and notice one has no ejector for hotter loads.
The other picture shows the McMillan Sako style extractor on a 50 BMG and a pair of Stiller Tac408 actions. Notice one of the Stiller's has the full size M16 and the other is the Mini M16.
And no I am not a photographer and yes that's the best I can do while holding the handles up with one hand and trying to get the phone to take the picture while eating a snicker bar.
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Old 06-11-2018, 12:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sigstroker View Post
Ouch. The nice thing about Howa/Weatherby Vanguard are those gas ports in the bolt, just in case. Is that sort of mod often done on Remingtons?
Remington has a sealed breech with a gas path away from the shooter that will handle the gas if you blow a case/primer.
When you switch away from the standard Remington "3 rings of steel" design by cutting the bolt nose wide open to use a Sako, Mini16 or M16 extractor, you defeat the gas seal system and more of the gas can come out the back of the reciever.

Having personally blown a case on a stock Remington bolt/receiver and not even noticed the gas to the face, I much prefer the "3 rings of steel" design and therefore the Remington extractor that is required for it to work over the mini16, M16 or Sako extractor designs that leave the breech much more open during a blow-up.
I run Surgeon actions which make full use of the Remington breech system.

All actions have some sort of system to vent the gas that makes it into the bolt (via a blown primer) away from the shooter's face.
The difference is in how they handle the gas that makes it out of the back of the case during more dramatic failure.

Howa's and Weatherbys also have an open breech system.
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Old 06-11-2018, 12:43 AM
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I also prefer the closed 700 bolt face. Ive blown a few cases and like it when the hot pressurey stuff goes away from my pretty face.
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Old 06-11-2018, 6:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ar15barrels View Post
Remington has a sealed breech with a gas path away from the shooter that will handle the gas if you blow a case/primer.
When you switch away from the standard Remington "3 rings of steel" design by cutting the bolt nose wide open to use a Sako, Mini16 or M16 extractor, you defeat the gas seal system and more of the gas can come out the back of the reciever.

Having personally blown a case on a stock Remington bolt/receiver and not even noticed the gas to the face, I much prefer the "3 rings of steel" design and therefore the Remington extractor that is required for it to work over the mini16, M16 or Sako extractor designs that leave the breech much more open during a blow-up.
I run Surgeon actions which make full use of the Remington breech system.

All actions have some sort of system to vent the gas that makes it into the bolt (via a blown primer) away from the shooter's face.
The difference is in how they handle the gas that makes it out of the back of the case during more dramatic failure.

Howa's and Weatherbys also have an open breech system.
Yes, I understand the Remington port ect. But I wish I had taken the image when my face was honestly coated in blood ~ It was slowly oozing out from everywhere below my glasses. Both times was on a 100% stock Remington 700 bolt. The gasses leaked back through the bolt shroud. It was violent enough to bend the stock extractor.

Just food for thought

> On my Deviants with the extractors as mentioned, I have had lots of case-head separations; with no gasses in the face.
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Old 06-11-2018, 5:42 PM
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Diver
Back in the old days when guys were really pushing the Remington's hard they would drill two holes in the bolt to vent gases into the magazine well.
If you had a Remington 600 which is basically a xp-100 action with the severely doglegged bolt handle the older magazines would include a template for drilling the holes.
My father used to tell me your asking a lot out of that little vent hole when he would see me vibrating powder to get more of it into a case.
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Old 06-11-2018, 5:58 PM
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Drill two 3/16" holes in the bolt, (see figure 1) which exit into the magazine in firing position. In no way is the performance of your rifle impaired, but safety is greatly enhanced. If done with care, the gas vents appear to be factory installed.
After this modification is performed, escaping combustion gases from ruptured primers are vented harmlessly into the magazine. This minor change can certainly make a shoot more enjoyable and safer.



MACHINING SEQUENCE
1. Mount bolt, with firing pin assembly removed, in drill press vice. NOTE: A press should be used to attain quality results.
2. Scribe locations of holes to be drilled in bolt.
3. Center punch the scribed locations.
4. Use a center drill with a 3/16" point. Drill through and countersink just enough to create a slight chamfer. NOTE: Use lubricant. If you do not have a center drill, use a regular 3/16" bit and follow with a file or similar tool to break sharp edges away.
5. Use a 3/8" diameter round file to remove any burrs on the inside of the bolt.
6. Wash bolt thoroughly in solvent and blow dry with air.
7. Reassemble and relubricate the bolt.

It won't fix those who insist upon shooting a 308 in a 270 but it helps.
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Old 06-11-2018, 6:29 PM
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It won't fix those who insist upon shooting a 308 in a 270 but it helps.


Thank you Lynn, thatís is some great info.

In my case we canít fix stupid not exactly what I did but damn close



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Old 06-11-2018, 7:13 PM
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That's pretty cool that Remington would do that. Of course that would be lawsuit bait these days because they would be admitting their rifle wasn't perfect.

I liked those 600's, a friend had one. The Howa gas relief ports are located in about the same place as that template.
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Old 06-11-2018, 8:33 PM
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SigStroker
That post was from James Calhoun fine shooting bullets because my picture taking skills are horrible.
The drilled bolt has been around for longer than me and I am as old as dust.
In the old days before everyone sued everyone when you had a problem people figured out a cure unlike today.
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Old 06-12-2018, 12:40 AM
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The vents in bolts are ONLY to deal with gas that enters the bolt through the firing pin hole.
No amount of bolt venting will stop the gas/debris that exits the chamber in other places than the firing pin hole.

When you reach that point, you have done something REALLY wrong.

Some designs handle that much better than others.
The more open the bolt face, the more places for stuff to get out of the chamber during a high pressure event.



Controlled feed actions are some of the worst at handling high pressure events.
Fully shrouded bolt faces handle high pressure events the best.
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Old 06-12-2018, 2:10 AM
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Exactly the vents in the bolt were to vent gas when you popped a primer common with the hotter loads.
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Old 06-12-2018, 5:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by diver160651 View Post
Just food for thought

> On my Deviants with the extractors as mentioned, I have had lots of case-head separations; with no gasses in the face.
Food for thought indeed.... One wonders why you've have "lots of case-head separations"...
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Old 06-12-2018, 5:45 AM
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Food for thought indeed.... One wonders why you've have "lots of case-head separations"...
I ran Lapua way too hot for too many loads and over-bumped (turned the micrometer, slightly in error) the last time on about 1000 hand loads.. Prior to that, the internal ring did not show up. I decided to run them rather than toss them out. In that thousand rounds, I had maybe 18-20.. while that is only 2% ish, to me, thats a lot.

I also shot a lot of positional matches and seen others -- it is common enough that I carry a 12gauge brush in my pack. You see enough hand loads shot with people reusing their cases to the end and they show up. Often, it is the extraction that is the final straw.

Yes, every hand-load should be checked with a paper clip, every time, but when your shooting as much as some matches require and have two shooters sometimes we get lazy.. As an example of round count, the SHTC last weekend required about 500 rifle rounds (targets 350-1325) and 120 pistol rounds (targets close). Some matches we might only burn 100-250. But dang it adds up, so the chances of seeing failures is higher just due the to volume. This year I switched to factory ammo, It is NOT as good, but I was becoming a slave to reloading. Truth be told, the factory is good enough in this type of shooting that it is NOT what keeps one out of the top.
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Old 06-12-2018, 10:48 AM
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Okay, you know someone is going to ask - paper clip?
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Old 06-12-2018, 1:33 PM
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Okay, you know someone is going to ask - paper clip?


More here.
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Old 06-12-2018, 5:13 PM
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Diver
Get a Warner full length die that matches your reamer and you will never have another separation.
I am not a fan of Warner Tools business practices after I bought a 300 WSM die from them but there die if properly fit to your reamer is the gold standard of resizing dies.
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Old 06-13-2018, 5:47 AM
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Originally Posted by diver160651 View Post
I ran Lapua way too hot for too many loads and over-bumped (turned the micrometer, slightly in error) the last time on about 1000 hand loads.. Prior to that, the internal ring did not show up. I decided to run them rather than toss them out. In that thousand rounds, I had maybe 18-20.. while that is only 2% ish, to me, thats a lot.

I also shot a lot of positional matches and seen others -- it is common enough that I carry a 12gauge brush in my pack. You see enough hand loads shot with people reusing their cases to the end and they show up. Often, it is the extraction that is the final straw.

Yes, every hand-load should be checked with a paper clip, every time, but when your shooting as much as some matches require and have two shooters sometimes we get lazy.. As an example of round count, the SHTC last weekend required about 500 rifle rounds (targets 350-1325) and 120 pistol rounds (targets close). Some matches we might only burn 100-250. But dang it adds up, so the chances of seeing failures is higher just due the to volume. This year I switched to factory ammo, It is NOT as good, but I was becoming a slave to reloading. Truth be told, the factory is good enough in this type of shooting that it is NOT what keeps one out of the top.
If this was me, once I realized the shoulders were bumped too far, I would have reseated to bullets for a light/moderate jam to set headspace and used them only for practice/club matches. I have a FL die dedicated to each chamber, to minimize this possibility.
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Old 06-13-2018, 7:39 AM
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If this was me, once I realized the shoulders were bumped too far, I would have reseated to bullets for a light/moderate jam to set headspace and used them only for practice/club matches. I have a FL die dedicated to each chamber, to minimize this possibility.
I understand Lynn's suggestion for future sizing, but I am not sure how reseating would have helped or saved the cases.

Normally shoot for about .001 bump FL using redding bushing dies for connivence.. with different brass. In this case I bumped about .003 on brass that was run very hot for a number of cycles.

FWIW I understand, that .001 target floats a hair if nothing else to measurement error and a tiny bit of various harness even with my Benchmade (edited LOL, Thats my Knife - "Bench-source") annealer.

So, again, I just am not sure how reseating could have saved the brass, or make this good for matches were you have time limits and may need deal with case extraction.

I am not trying to be argumentative, if it at all seem that way please accept my apologies.. (I've been told thats how I come across when I post - it is more a poor skill set that anything else) I truly am interested in learning this one.

This thread has had some assume info from Lynn, AR15, Kendog etc..

Jt
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Old 06-13-2018, 10:19 AM
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Such a small difference causing blown cases, those must be VERY hot.
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Old 06-13-2018, 12:03 PM
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Such a small difference causing blown cases, those must be VERY hot.




It can go fast on old brass

BTW this image below is the one that had the guys on their cans, jump up and l looked at my dumbness and jacked face. 6mm for scale


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Old 06-13-2018, 5:33 PM
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SigStroker
When brass gets work hardened it will crack on you rather than form to fit the chamber. It doesn't shatter like glass but it also doesn't conform like new brass does.

Diver
Loading the bullets long as you have posted doesn't really help. Lots of shooters doing it but if you bump that shoulder too much the only cure is to create a false shoulder at the neck/shoulder junction and really palming the bolt closed.
I would not attempt it at a match as you really need a tight fit on the false shoulder.
To test the "jam a bullet into the lands" theory you would take a fired case and full length size it without removing the spent primer. You want just for this experiment to over-bump the shoulder a couple thousandths.
Now seat a bullet long and close the bolt on the round.
Measure the overall length.
Put the round back in the gun and dry fire the round.
Remeasure the overall length.
If jamming the bullet will hold the case from moving forward your overall length will stay the same length.
If the firing pin hitting the primer overcomes the necks grasp on the bullet the overall length will be shorter.
Everyone needs to test this for themselves to see what they get.
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Old 06-13-2018, 5:47 PM
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Diver,

If bumping from 0.001" to 0.003" resulted in casehead separation, then that brass was on it's last legs. Jamming the bullets wouldn't have saved them.

If the brass was in good shape and you wanted to salvage what you could, then you could reseat the bullets longer to jam into the lands with good neck tension. Without enough neck tension, the case would move forward during the FP strike. It's not ideal but and option. The next better step would be to create a false shoulder but that's more steps. Lesson learned.
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Si, Yo Hablo Ingles, kind of.

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Old 06-13-2018, 5:51 PM
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It can go fast on old brass
Wow, that one on the right got split clean in half.
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