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Centerfire Rifles - Semiautomatic or Gas Operated Centerfire rifles, carbines and other gas operated rifles.

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  #1  
Old 03-17-2014, 12:52 AM
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Default Typical Groups for an SPR

I went to the range last Friday to test out some hand loads I've been working on for my SPR. In this set, I used 24 gr of Varget, 77 gr Nosler Custom Competition projectiles, Lake City brass and CCI small rifle primers. I wasn't sure what to expect so I want you guys to be the judge.

The first picture is a 5 shot group at 100 yards using 75 gr Hornady TAP. This was done purely for comparison reasons. The remaining pictures are 5 shot groups at 100 yards using my loads.

Let me know what you think of my groups. Are these typical results for an SPR-type rifle? Let me know if you guys need more info.













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Last edited by AeroEngi; 03-17-2014 at 3:03 PM..
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  #2  
Old 03-17-2014, 4:18 AM
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With a Rainier match barrel, 67gr Hornady bthp, and a slicked up MIL trigger, I was getting 0.25-0.5 MOA if I was feeling it that day. That was on a bench, using bags, and a 10x. Cloverleafs

Last edited by THEJAPINO; 03-17-2014 at 4:27 AM..
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  #3  
Old 03-17-2014, 7:06 AM
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What are your rifle's specs? For an SPR, you should be getting tighter groups. I would say those groups are doable with a milspec AR and a powerful optic.
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Old 03-17-2014, 7:10 AM
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that's good for an spr if you are shooting standing up. off the bipod, could be a bit tighter.
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Old 03-17-2014, 7:19 AM
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Do load work up. Load 10, at .2 intervals.
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Old 03-17-2014, 7:25 AM
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Always check for pressure. and watch were your brass is going 3:00-4:25.
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Old 03-17-2014, 7:45 AM
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Every gun is an individual. For factory ammo, depending on your rifle, it could be hit or miss whether or not your setup likes that particular ammo. Watch this video and it explains why:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h407yVskVeM

Now, for a SPR rifle, I would expect much tighter groups and if you have decent components and it was built properly, I would expect around 1/2-3/4 MOA. This also assumes that you have good marksmanship skills. I was at the range yesterday letting a guy shoot my AR and he was getting 1.5" groups with my pet loads. He asked me if this was what I should expect and told him no and then I shot a 3 shot string that measured 1/2" center-to-center. He realized that he had a lot of work to do on himself when he saw that.

What components do you have. Specs?

It took some time for me to develop my load for my rifles and every rifle I own has a different load it likes. See below and notice how not a single load are alike; you might get lucky and have a couple rifles that like the same load, but I was not that fortunate. You have to do your own and find out what your gun likes based on its harmonics. Again, the video will help explain this.

M&P15 Sport - 16" factory barrel - The best load of the group below was 24.1gr CFE223 with 68gr HPBT. This was 1/2-3/4" MOA consistently out of a M&P15 Sport!

23gr Varget / 77gr SMK / OAL: 2.260" / LC Brass
23.5gr CFE223 / 77gr SMK / OAL: 2.260" / LC Brass
24.1gr CFE223 / 68gr HPBT / OAL: 2.230" / LC Brass / Factory Crimp


Larue PredatAR - 18" LW-50 barrel. Best load out of the three was 24gr W748 w/ 77gr pills. This is consistently sub-1/2" MOA with good velocity

22gr 8208XBR / 77gr SMK / OAL: 2.260" / LC Brass
24.0gr W748 / 77gr SMK / OAL: 2.260" / LC Brass
22.5gr 8208XBR / 68gr HPBT / OAL: 2.230" / LC Brass

Last edited by bsumoba; 03-17-2014 at 7:50 AM..
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  #8  
Old 03-17-2014, 7:51 AM
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Your grouping should be a bit tighter. Here's mine. 24.2 Reloader 15 with 77gr SMK. BCM 18" barrel 1/8 twist.
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Old 03-17-2014, 9:22 AM
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An SPR is pretty much just an accurized service rifle, not particularly a precision rifle. They should shoot at least 1", but usually get even smaller groups. I have a mk12 mod0 clone that shoots around .75"-1", the KAC LPR upper I have shoots even tighter groups than that.
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  #10  
Old 03-17-2014, 9:33 AM
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Well if you use internet group sizing your probably getting about .25-.5 MOA.

Here's what you need to do Shoot 3 shot groups don't count any flyers and the best group you get of the day that's what your rifle shoots.

1 MOA is what I'd strive for in an SPR.
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  #11  
Old 03-17-2014, 9:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thegamettt View Post
that's good for an spr if you are shooting standing up. off the bipod, could be a bit tighter.
You shoot MOA off hand?
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  #12  
Old 03-17-2014, 10:21 AM
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Thanks for all the info. Here's some info about the rifle:

Upper: Vltor MUR-1A
Lower: Palmetto State Armory
BCG: BCM
Barrel: 18" White Oak Armament SPR profile rifle length
Muzzle: Vltor VC-1
Rail: Daniel Defense Lite 14.0
Optic: Vortex Viper PST 2.5-10x32 FFP
Optics Mount: LaRue SPR-S LT158
BUIS: Magpul MBUS
Trigger: Geissele SSA-E
Stock: Vltor A5 with E-Mod stock
Bipod: Harris BRM-S bipod with GG&G bipod adapter



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Last edited by AeroEngi; 03-17-2014 at 10:37 AM..
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  #13  
Old 03-17-2014, 10:56 AM
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Your system should be good enough to shoot tight groups. Looks like you just need to work on your load development and if you cannot find a load that shoots well in your rifle it might be your marksmanship skills. Use a ladder or a OCW method and find out what your rifle likes.
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  #14  
Old 03-17-2014, 12:06 PM
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Nice setup just keep pluging away and the groups will tighten up
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  #15  
Old 03-17-2014, 1:44 PM
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I was going to ask if you were running the Ops Inc brake and collar, until I saw the pics of your setup. The collar on the Ops setup can open up group size quite a bit if it's not bedded with locktite. My rifle went from consistent 3/4 or less moa to around 5 moa just due to the collar rattling around on the barrel.

Other things I would check are the locking levers on the scope mount, and the mounting screws for the rings. Aside from the basic checks to make sure everything is tightened down correctly, I would advise more shooting. Lots more. It's not uncommon for many rifles, especially with production barrels, to not shoot to their full accuracy potential until several hundred rounds have gone down the bore to smooth things out. Another benefit (And possibly the true reason rifles get more accurate after several hundred rounds) is that you will get better at driving the gun. Semi autos require a bit more concentration, and better form to shoot accurately than a comprable bolt action.
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  #16  
Old 03-17-2014, 2:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FMJBT View Post
I was going to ask if you were running the Ops Inc brake and collar, until I saw the pics of your setup. The collar on the Ops setup can open up group size quite a bit if it's not bedded with locktite. My rifle went from consistent 3/4 or less moa to around 5 moa just due to the collar rattling around on the barrel.

Other things I would check are the locking levers on the scope mount, and the mounting screws for the rings. Aside from the basic checks to make sure everything is tightened down correctly, I would advise more shooting. Lots more. It's not uncommon for many rifles, especially with production barrels, to not shoot to their full accuracy potential until several hundred rounds have gone down the bore to smooth things out. Another benefit (And possibly the true reason rifles get more accurate after several hundred rounds) is that you will get better at driving the gun. Semi autos require a bit more concentration, and better form to shoot accurately than a comprable bolt action.
That's a good idea; I never thought to check the locking levers and mounting screws on the rings. I believe they're pretty tight but it wouldn't hurt to double check.

I guess my plan now is to shoot more, keep testing different loads and get better at shooting a semi-auto. I can easily get sub-0.5 MOA with my bolt gun. I guess I just assumed that it'll be just as easy to do that with a semi-auto. I didn't know that they make you work harder for it.
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Old 03-17-2014, 3:03 PM
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Default Need more practice

All those gucci accessories and scope at 100 yards

Sorry your groups should be tighter almost or on top of each other. You need more practice. Are you shooting from a prone position? on bench? I would suggest that you shoot in the prone, most stable position for accuracy.

Some pointers:

- Watch your breathing in between shoots.
- Don't anticipate the recoil.
- Take a shot, close your eyes and pause. After you open them see where your sights are pointing to.
- Practice, Practice, Practice.

stphnman20 has a nice grouping in that picture posted.
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  #18  
Old 03-17-2014, 4:52 PM
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What's wrong with OP shooting 100 yards..? Gives you a good idea of how accurate both you and your weapon are which is what he's trying to figure out here.

OP, sick build. Definitely should be getting tighter groups with that WOA barrel. Like someone else said, make sure your optic is really locked down and mark the screws with a paint pen or sharpie so you can note any loosening.

Also, if you shoot with your thumb in line with your trigger finger (like shooting with a featureless grip) your trigger pull will be straighter and it will help with accuracy.

Last edited by ky2970; 03-17-2014 at 4:54 PM..
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  #19  
Old 03-17-2014, 6:52 PM
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Originally Posted by ky2970 View Post
What's wrong with OP shooting 100 yards..? Gives you a good idea of how accurate both you and your weapon are which is what he's trying to figure out here.

OP, sick build. Definitely should be getting tighter groups with that WOA barrel. Like someone else said, make sure your optic is really locked down and mark the screws with a paint pen or sharpie so you can note any loosening.

Also, if you shoot with your thumb in line with your trigger finger (like shooting with a featureless grip) your trigger pull will be straighter and it will help with accuracy.
Thanks man. Yeah, I figured the same thing regarding the WOA barrel. I was certain that I should've been getting better groups. Anyway, next time I'm going to use my buddy's lead sled so I can take myself out of the equation to figure out which load works best in the rifle. Once I've found the load my rifle likes best, then I'll put myself back into the equation and practice, practice, practice.
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Old 03-17-2014, 7:01 PM
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I bet , if you play with same loads , same set up next time u go , Im pretty sure it'll get better results

as for me , somedays I have it , somedays I just dont

I honestly cant tell that much difference testing loads at 100 yards .. someone that been loading for long time and been in competition , told me it comes down long range group .

I guess I can try to move up little by little .. but Im still terrible at 100

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Old 03-17-2014, 7:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by russ209 View Post
Nice setup just keep pluging away and the groups will tighten up
This.

I see cheekweld and trigger control issues with maybe some parallax or flinching thrown in for good measure.

Also that target is not that great for shooting groups, if I were shooting at it I might bracket the bottom of the diamond rather than holding dead center. A regular bullseye with a bright center dot might be a better choice. With that barrel I would say that 1" groups should be average with a good handload. The nosler 77 likes to be abotu 2.245" long with 23.5-24 grains of varget under it.
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Old 03-17-2014, 7:19 PM
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The collar on the Ops setup can open up group size quite a bit if it's not bedded with locktite.
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Old 03-17-2014, 8:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G38xOC View Post
I bet , if you play with same loads , same set up next time u go , Im pretty sure it'll get better results

as for me , somedays I have it , somedays I just dont

I honestly cant tell that much difference testing loads at 100 yards .. someone that been loading for long time and been in competition , told me it comes down long range group .

I guess I can try to move up little by little .. but Im still terrible at 100
Yeah, the 24 gr load has been the best one I've tested so far. I'm probably gonna make some rounds at -0.5 gr to +0.3 gr in 0.1 gr increments to see what kind of results I'll get.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoop View Post
This.

I see cheekweld and trigger control issues with maybe some parallax or flinching thrown in for good measure.

Also that target is not that great for shooting groups, if I were shooting at it I might bracket the bottom of the diamond rather than holding dead center. A regular bullseye with a bright center dot might be a better choice. With that barrel I would say that 1" groups should be average with a good handload. The nosler 77 likes to be abotu 2.245" long with 23.5-24 grains of varget under it.
Thanks for the info. I definitely have to work on my technique. I'm definitely gonna give prone a try.




Quote:
Originally Posted by theorydo View Post
The collar on the Ops setup can open up group size quite a bit if it's not bedded with locktite.
Luckily I'm not using the Ops brake but thanks for the info. I didn't know the collar could adversely affect accuracy.



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Old 03-17-2014, 11:01 PM
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Default I am assuming you are joking but just so he isn't confused...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dhena81 View Post
Well if you use internet group sizing your probably getting about .25-.5 MOA.

Here's what you need to do Shoot 3 shot groups don't count any flyers and the best group you get of the day that's what your rifle shoots.

1 MOA is what I'd strive for in an SPR.
The statistical significance of a single 3 shot group (best of the day, throwing out flyers) is very low. I am told that police snipers have to be able to get 100% of their cold bore shots within whatever their department minimum requires 0.75 to 1 MOA. That means every shot, every time, not excluding flyers,not 3 shot groups,but many shots.

My own rule is 10 shot groups, and by that measure my inexpensive Rock River varmint will do 0.5-0.6 MOA (variation due to wind I think) with factory match ammo. My background is competitive shooting and in that environment flyers do count.
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Old 03-17-2014, 11:34 PM
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Originally Posted by captbilly View Post
The statistical significance of a single 3 shot group (best of the day, throwing out flyers) is very low. I am told that police snipers have to be able to get 100% of their cold bore shots within whatever their department minimum requires 0.75 to 1 MOA. That means every shot, every time, not excluding flyers,not 3 shot groups,but many shots.

My own rule is 10 shot groups, and by that measure my inexpensive Rock River varmint will do 0.5-0.6 MOA (variation due to wind I think) with factory match ammo. My background is competitive shooting and in that environment flyers do count.
Sorry if my humor was lost in my text.
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Old 03-20-2014, 6:51 PM
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I have the same barrel that I have just finish building last Friday and shot a five shots group last Wednesday.
The load for this group was 24.8 grains of Ar-Comp and 52 gn BTHP with average MV 3122 f/s

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Old 03-20-2014, 7:04 PM
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I would suggest that you shoot in the prone, most stable position for accuracy.
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Old 03-21-2014, 7:31 AM
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If you are not getting the improvements you are seeking after several range trips, you may have some bad habits established. Consider a class or even private instruction to weed out those tendencies.

Also evaluate your optics and your vision. Improvements are going to happen once those variables are worked out.
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Old 03-21-2014, 8:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xMAC1x View Post
Do load work up. Load 10, at .2 intervals.
^ this
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Old 03-21-2014, 8:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ladarisyuan View Post
I would suggest that you shoot in the prone, most stable position for accuracy.
Benchrest position is always going to be the most stable and is what should be used for determining the true mechanical accuracy of firearm. You'll eliminate the most shooter error from the equation. Of course, this also means maximizing the quality of the bench rest equipment (stable bench, solid and *consistent* rests).

I agree that of the non-benchrest positions, prone will be the most stable. Although, I personally would shoot prone with a sling vs prone with a bipod. The amount of pressure I put on the gun's support points is more consistent if slung vs a bipod.
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Old 03-21-2014, 10:41 AM
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[URL=http://s1166.photobucket.com/user/dunwitjayz/media/Snapbucket/D2E783A3_zps622e9113.jpg.html][/URL


this is a 10 shot group at 100 yard that im shooting consistently with my white oak 18 inch spr barrel on a seekins rifle with 77g hpbt blackhills ammo.
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Old 03-21-2014, 10:54 AM
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[URL=http://s1166.photobucket.com/user/dunwitjayz/media/Snapbucket/D2E783A3_zps622e9113.jpg.html][/URL


this is a 10 shot group at 100 yard that im shooting consistently with my white oak 18 inch spr barrel on a seekins rifle with 77g hpbt blackhills ammo.
Wow, that's a really nice group! Especially for a 10 shot.

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Old 03-21-2014, 4:09 PM
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Real nice build OP. You got all the right parts to expect 1 MOA groups all day. If everything is assembled correctly seek your answers elsewhere as already suggested.
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Old 03-21-2014, 6:25 PM
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Your load is practically perfect. The White Oak will shoot that like it's addicted to it. There is nothing keeping you from shooting .5moa groups at 100 yards except yourself. That's not meant to be offensive in any way, we are all at the mercy of ourselves while our rifles sit there and wait for us to get as good as they are.
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Old 03-21-2014, 11:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dragon7 View Post
Real nice build OP. You got all the right parts to expect 1 MOA groups all day. If everything is assembled correctly seek your answers elsewhere as already suggested.
Thanks man. Appreciate it.





Quote:
Originally Posted by milotrain View Post
Your load is practically perfect. The White Oak will shoot that like it's addicted to it. There is nothing keeping you from shooting .5moa groups at 100 yards except yourself. That's not meant to be offensive in any way, we are all at the mercy of ourselves while our rifles sit there and wait for us to get as good as they are.
Yeah, that's what I've realized through my research. That load is supposed to be really good out of that barrel. No offense taken, I know I need to work on my shooting skills. I've done great with my bolt guns but I guess I need to improve my skills for the SPR.

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  #36  
Old 03-22-2014, 7:57 AM
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Here's a target from 100 yds, 75 grain Hornady steel case practice ammo, 4x ACOG red donut reticle. The group at 1 O'clock is my ex, second time on a AR platform, first time she'd ever seen an ACOG. Lots of trigger time on a .300 WinMag up in Alaska.

Mega lower, Timney drop-in 3.5#, BCM Mk12 upper, Magpul PRS stock.

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