2018/2019 AMMO LAW THREAD - ask here, not a new thread

[Librarian]

This is the thread. Please ask here.

Read the whole thread - at this point, it is unlikely that your question is really any different from an existing question.

UPDATE Dec 10, 2018 - clearly this is still needed.

Remember, cite ONLY the Penal Code as it exists - the bills and the proposition language interacted in 'interesting' ways, and the actual Penal Code is the result of all the interactions.

-------------------

Here is the Penal Code in question, governing NON-FFLs - http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/fa...r=1.&article=2.

30312.

(a) (1) Commencing January 1, 2018, the sale of ammunition by any party shall be conducted by or processed through a licensed ammunition vendor.

(2) When neither party to an ammunition sale is a licensed ammunition vendor, the seller shall deliver the ammunition to a vendor to process the transaction. The ammunition vendor shall promptly and properly deliver the ammunition to the purchaser, if the sale is not prohibited, as if the ammunition were the vendor’s own merchandise. If the ammunition vendor cannot legally deliver the ammunition to the purchaser, the vendor shall forthwith return the ammunition to the seller. The ammunition vendor may charge the purchaser an administrative fee to process the transaction, in an amount to be set by the Department of Justice, in addition to any applicable fees that may be charged pursuant to the provisions of this title.

(b) Commencing January 1, 2018, the sale, delivery, or transfer of ownership of ammunition by any party may only occur in a face-to-face transaction with the seller, deliverer, or transferor, provided, however, that ammunition may be purchased or acquired over the Internet or through other means of remote ordering if a licensed ammunition vendor initially receives the ammunition and processes the transaction in compliance with this section and Article 3 (commencing with Section 30342) of Chapter 1 of Division 10 of Title 4 of this part.

(c) Subdivisions (a) and (b) shall not apply to the sale, delivery, or transfer of ammunition to any of the following:

(1) An authorized law enforcement representative of a city, county, city and county, or state or federal government, if the sale, delivery, or transfer is for exclusive use by that government agency and, prior to the sale, delivery, or transfer of the ammunition, written authorization from the head of the agency employing the purchaser or transferee is obtained, identifying the employee as an individual authorized to conduct the transaction, and authorizing the transaction for the exclusive use of the agency employing the individual.

(2) A sworn peace officer, as defined in Chapter 4.5 (commencing with Section 830) of Title 3 of Part 2, or sworn federal law enforcement officer, who is authorized to carry a firearm in the course and scope of the officer’s duties.

(3) An importer or manufacturer of ammunition or firearms who is licensed to engage in business pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code and the regulations issued pursuant thereto.

(4) A person who is on the centralized list of exempted federal firearms licensees maintained by the Department of Justice pursuant to Article 6 (commencing with Section 28450) of Chapter 6 of Division 6 of this title.

(5) A person whose licensed premises are outside this state and who is licensed as a dealer or collector of firearms pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code and the regulations issued pursuant thereto.

(6) A person who is licensed as a collector of firearms pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code and the regulations issued pursuant thereto, whose licensed premises are within this state, and who has a current certificate of eligibility issued by the Department of Justice pursuant to Section 26710.

(7) An ammunition vendor.

(8) A consultant-evaluator.

(9) A person who purchases or receives ammunition at a target facility holding a business or other regulatory license, provided that the ammunition is at all times kept within the facility’s premises.

(10) A person who purchases or receives ammunition from a spouse, registered domestic partner, or immediate family member as defined in Section 16720.

(11) A person enrolled in the basic training academy for peace officers or any other course certified by the Commission on Peace Officer Standards and Training, an instructor of the academy or course, or a staff member of the academy or entity providing the course, who is purchasing the ammunition for the purpose of participation or use in the course.

(d) A violation of this section is a misdemeanor.

(Amended by Stats. 2017, Ch. 783, Sec. 3. (AB 693) Effective October 14, 2017. Note: This section was amended on Nov. 8, 2016, by initiative Prop. 63.)

30314.

(a) Commencing January 1, 2018, a resident of this state shall not bring or transport into this state any ammunition that he or she purchased or otherwise obtained from outside of this state unless he or she first has that ammunition delivered to a licensed ammunition vendor for delivery to that resident pursuant to the procedures set forth in Section 30312.

(b) Subdivision (a) does not apply to any of the following:

(1) An ammunition vendor.

(2) A sworn peace officer, as defined in Chapter 4.5 (commencing with Section 830) of Title 3 of Part 2, or sworn federal law enforcement officer, who is authorized to carry a firearm in the course and scope of the officer’s duties.

(3) An importer or manufacturer of ammunition or firearms who is licensed to engage in business pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code and the regulations issued pursuant thereto.

(4) A person who is on the centralized list of exempted federal firearms licensees maintained by the Department of Justice pursuant to Article 6 (commencing with Section 28450) of Chapter 6 of Division 6.

(5) A person who is licensed as a collector of firearms pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code and the regulations issued pursuant thereto, whose licensed premises are within this state, and who has a current certificate of eligibility issued by the Department of Justice pursuant to Section 26710.

(6) A person who acquired the ammunition from a spouse, registered domestic partner, or immediate family member as defined in Section 16720.

(c) A violation of this section is an infraction for any first time offense, and either an infraction or a misdemeanor for any subsequent offense.

(Added November 8, 2016, by initiative Proposition 63, Sec. 8.7.)

(b)(5) is AKA "C&R +COE"

And http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/fa...r=1.&article=4.

30370.

(a) Commencing July 1, 2019, the department shall electronically approve the purchase or transfer of ammunition through a vendor, as defined in Section 16151, except as otherwise specified. This approval shall occur at the time of purchase or transfer, prior to the purchaser or transferee taking possession of the ammunition. Pursuant to the authorization specified in paragraph (1) of subdivision (c) of Section 30352, the following persons are authorized to purchase ammunition:

(1) A purchaser or transferee whose information matches an entry in the Automated Firearms System (AFS) and who is eligible to possess ammunition as specified in subdivision (b).

(2) A purchaser or transferee who has a current certificate of eligibility issued by the department pursuant to Section 26710.

(3) A purchaser or transferee who is not prohibited from purchasing or possessing ammunition in a single ammunition transaction or purchase made pursuant to the procedure developed pursuant to subdivision (c).
...

[Librarian]

Here's the Penal Code for FFLs/Ammunition vendors: http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/fa...r=1.&article=3.

A selection from those sections:

30342.

(a) Commencing January 1, 2018, a valid ammunition vendor license shall be required for any person, firm, corporation, or other business enterprise to sell more than 500 rounds of ammunition in any 30-day period.

(b) A violation of this section is a misdemeanor.

(Added November 8, 2016, by initiative Proposition 63, Sec. 8.9.)


30347.

(a) An ammunition vendor shall require any agent or employee who handles, sells, delivers, or has under his or her custody or control any ammunition, to obtain and provide to the vendor a certificate of eligibility from the Department of Justice issued pursuant to Section 26710. On the application for the certificate, the agent or employee shall provide the name and address of the ammunition vendor with whom the person is employed, or the name and California firearms dealer number of the ammunition vendor if applicable.
...


30348.

(a) Except as provided in subdivision (b), the sale of ammunition by a licensed vendor shall be conducted at the location specified in the license.

(b) A vendor may sell ammunition at a gun show or event if the gun show or event is not conducted from any motorized or towed vehicle.
...


30350.

An ammunition vendor shall not sell or otherwise transfer ownership of, offer for sale or otherwise offer to transfer ownership of, or display for sale or display for transfer of ownership of any ammunition in a manner that allows that ammunition to be accessible to a purchaser or transferee without the assistance of the vendor or an employee of the vendor.
...


30352.

(a) Commencing July 1, 2019, an ammunition vendor shall not sell or otherwise transfer ownership of any ammunition without, at the time of delivery, legibly recording the following information on a form to be prescribed by the Department of Justice:

(1) The date of the sale or other transfer.

(2) The purchaser's or transferee's driver's license or other identification number and the state in which it was issued.

(3) The brand, type, and amount of ammunition sold or otherwise transferred.

(4) The purchaser's or transferee's full name and signature.

(5) The name of the salesperson who processed the sale or other transaction.

(6) The purchaser's or transferee's full residential address and telephone number.

(7) The purchaser's or transferee's date of birth.

(b) Commencing July 1, 2019, an ammunition vendor shall electronically submit to the department the information required by subdivision (a) for all sales and transfers of ownership of ammunition. The department shall retain this information in a database to be known as the Ammunition Purchase Records File. This information shall remain confidential and may be used by the department and those entities specified in, and pursuant to, subdivision (b) or (c) of Section 11105, through the California Law Enforcement Telecommunications System, only for law enforcement purposes. The ammunition vendor shall not use, sell, disclose, or share the information for any other purpose other than the submission required by this subdivision without the express written consent of the purchaser or transferee.

(c) Commencing on July 1, 2019, only those persons listed in this subdivision, or those persons or entities listed in subdivision (e), shall be authorized to purchase ammunition. Prior to delivering any ammunition, an ammunition vendor shall require bona fide evidence of identity to verify that the person who is receiving delivery of the ammunition is a person or entity listed in subdivision (e) or one of the following:

(1) A person authorized to purchase ammunition pursuant to Section 30370.

(2) A person who was approved by the department to receive a firearm from the ammunition vendor, pursuant to Section 28220, if that vendor is a licensed firearms dealer, and the ammunition is delivered to the person in the same transaction as the firearm.

(d) Commencing July 1, 2019, the ammunition vendor shall verify with the department, in a manner prescribed by the department, that the person is authorized to purchase ammunition. If the person is not listed as an authorized ammunition purchaser, the vendor shall deny the sale or transfer.

ETA

30385.


(a) The Department of Justice is authorized to issue ammunition vendor licenses pursuant to this article. The department shall, commencing July 1, 2017, commence accepting applications for ammunition vendor licenses. If an application is denied, the department shall inform the applicant of the reason for denial in writing.

(b) The ammunition vendor license shall be issued in a form prescribed by the department and shall be valid for a period of one year. The department may adopt regulations to administer the application and enforcement provisions of this article. The license shall allow the licensee to sell ammunition at the location specified in the license or at a gun show or event as set forth in Section 30348.

(c) (1) In the case of an entity other than a natural person, the department shall issue the license to the entity, but shall require a responsible person to pass the background check pursuant to Section 30395.

(2) For purposes of this article, “responsible person” means a person having the power to direct the management, policies, and practices of the entity as it pertains to ammunition.

(d) Commencing January 1, 2018, a firearms dealer licensed pursuant to Sections 26700 to 26915, inclusive, shall automatically be deemed a licensed ammunition vendor, provided the dealer complies with the requirements of Article 2 (commencing with Section 30300) and Article 3 (commencing with Section 30342).

The Regulations governing all this were approved Jan 2, 2018 - see https://oag.ca.gov/firearms/regs and https://oag.ca.gov/sites/all/files/a...opted-text.pdf

Thanks to Thorium and a couple others for the link.

[Librarian]

§ 4302. Standard Ammunition Eligibility Check (AFS Match).

(a) A purchaser or transferee is authorized to purchase ammunition if their information matches an entry in the Automated Firearm System and does not match an entry in the Prohibited Armed Persons File.
(1) A purchaser or transferee may request, through an ammunition vendor, that the Department conduct a Standard Ammunition Eligibility Check to determine if the ammunition purchaser or transferee qualifies for this authorization.
(b) As authorized by Penal Code section 30370, subdivision (e), the fee for a Standard Ammunition Eligibility Check is $1.00.
(c) The ammunition vendor shall collect the purchaser's or transferee's name, date of birth, current address, and driver's license or other government identification number in the manner described in Penal Code section 28180, and telephone number, and enter this information into the DES website.
(d) Upon the Department's completion of the Standard Ammunition Eligibility Check, the Department shall update the purchaser's or transferee's DES record to instruct the ammunition vendor to approve or reject the purchase or transfer.
(e) If the purchase or transfer is rejected, the ammunition vendor shall provide the purchaser or transferee with an ATN that can be used to obtain the reason for the rejection through the Department's CFARS website.

§ 4303. Basic Ammunition Eligibility Check (Single Transaction or Purchase).

(a) A purchaser or transferee is authorized to purchase ammunition if they are not prohibited from purchasing or possessing ammunition, subsequent to affirmation by the Department.
(1) A purchaser or transferee may request, through an ammunition vendor, that the Department conduct a Basic Ammunition Eligibility Check to determine if the purchaser or transferee qualifies for this authorization.
(2) A purchaser or transferee may instead seek authorization by following the procedure set forth by section 4302, 4304, 4305, or 4306, as applicable.
(b) As authorized by Penal Code section 30370, subdivision (c), the fee for a Basic Ammunition Eligibility Check is $19.00.
(c) The ammunition vendor shall collect the ammunition purchaser's or transferee's name, date of birth, current address, gender, hair color, eye color, height, weight, and driver's license or other government identification number in the manner described in Penal Code section 28180, and telephone number, United States citizenship status, federal Alien Registration Number or I-94 (if applicable), place of birth, alias name(s), and race, and enter this information into the DES website.
(d) The ammunition vendor will provide the purchaser or transferee an ATN to monitor the status of the Basic Ammunition Eligibility Check through the Department's CFARS website.
(1) An approved Basic Ammunition Eligibility Check can only be used for one ammunition purchase or transfer, and the approval expires 30 calendar days from when it is issued.
(2) If the Basic Ammunition Eligibility Check is denied, the Department shall notify the purchaser or transferee of the reason for the denial via U.S. Mail.
(e) Upon the Department's completion of a Basic Ammunition Eligibility Check, the Department shall update the purchaser's or transferee's DES record.

§ 4305. COE Verification Process.

(a) A purchaser or transferee is authorized to purchase ammunition if they hold a current Certificate of Eligibility, subsequent to verification by the Department.
(1) A purchaser or transferee may request, through an ammunition vendor, that the Department conduct a COE Verification to determine if the purchaser or transferee qualifies for this authorization.
(b) As authorized by Penal Code section 30370, subdivision (e), the fee for COE Verification is $1.00.
(c) The ammunition vendor shall collect the ammunition purchaser's or transferee's name, date of birth, current address, and driver's license or other government identification number in the manner described in Penal Code section 28180, telephone number, and COE number, and enter the information into the DES website.
(d) Upon the Department's completion of the COE Verification, the Department shall update the purchaser's or transferee's DES record to instruct the ammunition vendor to approve or reject the ammunition purchase or transfer.

[OCRebote78]

Is an FFL required to trade ammo?

Is the DOJ using the term "any transfer" to cover all it's bases, including trading?

[YubaRiver]

So July 2019 vendors can sell only to someone with a residence and phone number?

Looks like PPT (transfers between non-vendors) other than sales are OK face to face but not requiring vendor?

[Eureka1911]

Thanks Librarian. A single thread with the actual wording at the start is a great idea.

[Electrician]

So what exactly does this mean? I'm not a lawyer nor am I familiar with law practice but this to me sounds like it's okay to transport ammunition into California if it was acquired from a immediate family member? Below I have included the penal code section from which I interpreted.





CHAPTER 1. Ammunition [30210 - 30395] ( Chapter 1 added by Stats. 2010, Ch. 711, Sec. 6. )

ARTICLE 2. Other Restrictions Relating to Ammunition [30300 - 30340] ( Article 2 added by Stats. 2010, Ch. 711, Sec. 6. )

30314.
(a) Commencing January 1, 2018, a resident of this state shall not bring or transport into this state any ammunition that he or she purchased or otherwise obtained from outside of this state unless he or she first has that ammunition delivered to a licensed ammunition vendor for delivery to that resident pursuant to the procedures set forth in Section 30312.
(b) Subdivision (a) does not apply to any of the following:
(1) An ammunition vendor.
(2) A sworn peace officer, as defined in Chapter 4.5 (commencing with Section 830) of Title 3 of Part 2, or sworn federal law enforcement officer, who is authorized to carry a firearm in the course and scope of the officer’s duties.
(3) An importer or manufacturer of ammunition or firearms who is licensed to engage in business pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code and the regulations issued pursuant thereto.
(4) A person who is on the centralized list of exempted federal firearms licensees maintained by the Department of Justice pursuant to Article 6 (commencing with Section 28450) of Chapter 6 of Division 6.
(5) A person who is licensed as a collector of firearms pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code and the regulations issued pursuant thereto, whose licensed premises are within this state, and who has a current certificate of eligibility issued by the Department of Justice pursuant to Section 26710.
(6) A person who acquired the ammunition from a spouse, registered domestic partner, or immediate family member as defined in Section 16720.

[Rorge Retson]

Let's say I have ammo I want to sell in 2018. If I want to sell more than 500 rounds in a month, is my only option to become a licensed vendor?

If so, what is that process?

[Eureka1911]

Originally Posted by Rorge Retson

Let's say I have ammo I want to sell in 2018. If I want to sell more than 500 rounds in a month, is my only option to become a licensed vendor?

Yes.

If so, what is that process?

https://oag.ca.gov/firearms/regs

[Diinky]

If I were to drive to Vegas for a trip, I can return with 50 rounds of ammunition / person legally? I couldn't find the exact law but remember reading that even if I "brought" the ammo originally from CA, I can only return with 50 rounds.

[mshill]

Originally Posted by Diinky

If I were to drive to Vegas for a trip, I can return with 50 rounds of ammunition / person legally? I couldn't find the exact law but remember reading that even if I "brought" the ammo originally from CA, I can only return with 50 rounds.

30314.

(a) Commencing January 1, 2018, a resident of this state shall not bring or transport into this state any ammunition that he or she purchased or otherwise obtained from outside of this state unless he or she first has that ammunition delivered to a licensed ammunition vendor for delivery to that resident pursuant to the procedures set forth in Section 30312.


Your answer is hidden somewhere in the bolded text.

[Eureka1911]

Originally Posted by Diinky

If I were to drive to Vegas for a trip, I can return with 50 rounds of ammunition / person legally? I couldn't find the exact law but remember reading that even if I "brought" the ammo originally from CA, I can only return with 50 rounds.

That 50 round thing was in a bill written in the legislature. Prop 63 over wrote that. You cannot bring ANY ammo back into the state purchased out of state. You can buy it out of state but it must be shipped to a licensed ammo dealer for the actual physical transfer.

[gimebakmybulits]

Originally Posted by Diinky

If I were to drive to Vegas for a trip, I can return with 50 rounds of ammunition / person legally? I couldn't find the exact law but remember reading that even if I "brought" the ammo originally from CA, I can only return with 50 rounds.

If you acquired that ammo in accordance with (6) A person who acquired the ammunition from a spouse, registered domestic partner, or immediate family member as defined in Section 16720.
You can bring it back with you.

[JTizel]

Originally Posted by gimebakmybulits

If you acquired that ammo in accordance with (6) A person who acquired the ammunition from a spouse, registered domestic partner, or immediate family member as defined in Section 16720.

You can bring it back with you.

...transport exception from spouse/direct family include driven and shipped? If so, burden of proof is easier using the later method I would assume.

[Diinky]

So I am allowed to bring back any original ammo I started out with from CA, but not what I buy out of state, correct? It's gonna be hard for them to prove that...

[mshill]

Originally Posted by Diinky

So I am allowed to bring back any original ammo I started out with from CA, but not what I buy out of state, correct? It's gonna be hard for them to prove that...

And even if they can, it's an infraction for the first offense. It is virtually impossible for them to enforce this unless you blurt out "I bought it in Nevada!"

[BugOnPoint]

I am planning a bird hunting trip to CA next month. I live in Reno (having fled the insanity of California a few years back). Can I bring my own shotgun shells with me provided I don't transfer them to anyone else?

Thanks

[Chewy65]

Yes. The new laws only apply to a resident of California or an ammunition vendor. Nor would you be an ammunition vendor if you were to sell a few shells to your hunting buds (not more than 500 sold in a 30 day period).

30342.

(a) Commencing January 1, 2018, a valid ammunition vendor license shall be required for any person, firm, corporation, or other business enterprise to sell more than 500 rounds of ammunition in any 30-day period.

(b) A violation of this section is a misdemeanor.

(Added November 8, 2016, by initiative Proposition 63, Sec. 8.9.)

[Scratch705]

Originally Posted by Chewy65

Yes. The new laws only apply to a resident of California or an ammunition vendor. Nor would you be an ammunition vendor if you were to sell a few shells to your hunting buds (less than 500 sold in a 30 day period).

so then what is to stop residents of other states to bring in thousands of rounds of ammo when they cross the border to visit friends & family?and would i as a CA resident be breaking this law for accepting it without going through a FFL?

[CSACANNONEER]

If I bought ammo in NV in 1972 and brought it to CA then, can I take it back to NV and then re import it to CA without having to go through a LAV?

I don't see anything in the law that exempts ammo that was in CA prior to 1-1-18 just ammunition that was purchased in CA at any point in time.

[CSACANNONEER]

Originally Posted by Scratch705

so then what is to stop residents of other states to bring in thousands of rounds of ammo when they cross the border to visit friends & family?and would i as a CA resident be breaking this law for accepting it without going through a FFL?

This is interesting. There's no question that an out of state resident can legally import ammo into CA without going through a LAV. When it comes to transferring ownership here's the actual text of the law:


30312.

(a) (1) Commencing January 1, 2018, the sale of ammunition by any party shall be conducted by or processed through a licensed ammunition vendor.

(2) When neither party to an ammunition sale is a licensed ammunition vendor, the seller shall deliver the ammunition to a vendor to process the transaction. The ammunition vendor shall promptly and properly deliver the ammunition to the purchaser, if the sale is not prohibited, as if the ammunition were the vendor’s own merchandise. If the ammunition vendor cannot legally deliver the ammunition to the purchaser, the vendor shall forthwith return the ammunition to the seller. The ammunition vendor may charge the purchaser an administrative fee to process the transaction, in an amount to be set by the Department of Justice, in addition to any applicable fees that may be charged pursuant to the provisions of this title.

(b) Commencing January 1, 2018, the sale, delivery, or transfer of ownership of ammunition by any party may only occur in a face-to-face transaction with the seller, deliverer, or transferor, provided, however, that ammunition may be purchased or acquired over the Internet or through other means of remote ordering if a licensed ammunition vendor initially receives the ammunition and processes the transaction in compliance with this section and Article 3 (commencing with Section 30342) of Chapter 1 of Division 10 of Title 4 of this part.

Well, (a) would not apply to a gift since, the law clearly only says "sale". Now, (b) does include "sale", "delivery" and "transfer" so, it would apply to a gift. While it does include "transforor", it does not appear to require a "transferor" to be present or included in the exchange because, the law was written with the word "OR" instead of "and". Also, (b) is a stand alone clause and does not include the requirement to go through a LAV like (a) does. I know what CA DOJ would say but, is it legal even if they don't want it to be? It might be.

[Not a Cook]

Didn't see this posted yet...

What is "an immediate family member" for the purposes of this new law?

California Penal Code Section 16720:
As used in this part, “immediate family member” means either of the following relationships:

(a) Parent and child.

(b) Grandparent and grandchild.

(Added by Stats. 2010, Ch. 711, Sec. 6. (SB 1080) Effective January 1, 2011. Operative January 1, 2012, by Sec. 10 of Ch. 711.)

Yes; it is sadly that narrow.

[gimebakmybulits]

Originally Posted by CSACANNONEER

This is interesting. There's no question that an out of state resident can legally import ammo into CA without going through a LAV. When it comes to transferring ownership here's the actual text of the law:


30312.

(a) (1) Commencing January 1, 2018, the sale of ammunition by any party shall be conducted by or processed through a licensed ammunition vendor.

(2) When neither party to an ammunition sale is a licensed ammunition vendor, the seller shall deliver the ammunition to a vendor to process the transaction. The ammunition vendor shall promptly and properly deliver the ammunition to the purchaser, if the sale is not prohibited, as if the ammunition were the vendor’s own merchandise. If the ammunition vendor cannot legally deliver the ammunition to the purchaser, the vendor shall forthwith return the ammunition to the seller. The ammunition vendor may charge the purchaser an administrative fee to process the transaction, in an amount to be set by the Department of Justice, in addition to any applicable fees that may be charged pursuant to the provisions of this title.

(b) Commencing January 1, 2018, the sale, delivery, or transfer of ownership of ammunition by any party may only occur in a face-to-face transaction with the seller, deliverer, or transferor, provided, however, that ammunition may be purchased or acquired over the Internet or through other means of remote ordering if a licensed ammunition vendor initially receives the ammunition and processes the transaction in compliance with this section and Article 3 (commencing with Section 30342) of Chapter 1 of Division 10 of Title 4 of this part.

Well, (a) would not apply to a gift since, the law clearly only says "sale". Now, (b) does include "sale", "delivery" and "transfer" so, it would apply to a gift. While it does include "transforor", it does not appear to require a "transferor" to be present or included in the exchange because, the law was written with the word "OR" instead of "and". Also, (b) is a stand alone clause and does not include the requirement to go through a LAV like (a) does. I know what CA DOJ would say but, is it legal even if they don't want it to be? It might be.

That ",or transferor" is the person who is making a transfer of ownership of ammunition(property) in a face-to-face transaction without the need of an Ammunition Vendor because it's a gift or trade.

[OCRebote78]

Originally Posted by CSACANNONEER

This is interesting. There's no question that an out of state resident can legally import ammo into CA without going through a LAV. When it comes to transferring ownership here's the actual text of the law:


30312.

(a) (1) Commencing January 1, 2018, the sale of ammunition by any party shall be conducted by or processed through a licensed ammunition vendor.

(2) When neither party to an ammunition sale is a licensed ammunition vendor, the seller shall deliver the ammunition to a vendor to process the transaction. The ammunition vendor shall promptly and properly deliver the ammunition to the purchaser, if the sale is not prohibited, as if the ammunition were the vendor’s own merchandise. If the ammunition vendor cannot legally deliver the ammunition to the purchaser, the vendor shall forthwith return the ammunition to the seller. The ammunition vendor may charge the purchaser an administrative fee to process the transaction, in an amount to be set by the Department of Justice, in addition to any applicable fees that may be charged pursuant to the provisions of this title.

(b) Commencing January 1, 2018, the sale, delivery, or transfer of ownership of ammunition by any party may only occur in a face-to-face transaction with the seller, deliverer, or transferor, provided, however, that ammunition may be purchased or acquired over the Internet or through other means of remote ordering if a licensed ammunition vendor initially receives the ammunition and processes the transaction in compliance with this section and Article 3 (commencing with Section 30342) of Chapter 1 of Division 10 of Title 4 of this part.

Well, (a) would not apply to a gift since, the law clearly only says "sale". Now, (b) does include "sale", "delivery" and "transfer" so, it would apply to a gift. While it does include "transforor", it does not appear to require a "transferor" to be present or included in the exchange because, the law was written with the word "OR" instead of "and". Also, (b) is a stand alone clause and does not include the requirement to go through a LAV like (a) does. I know what CA DOJ would say but, is it legal even if they don't want it to be? It might be.

But starting in 2019 the law completely exempts an out of sate resident:

Senate Bill No. 1235

30368. (a) Commencing July 1, 2019, a resident of this state shall not bring or transport into this state any ammunition that he or she purchased from outside of this state unless he or she first has that ammunition delivered to an ammunition vendor in this state for delivery to that resident pursuant to the procedures set forth in Section 30366.

(b) Subdivision (a) does not apply to any of the following bringing or transporting into this state any ammunition:

(13) A person that at the time he or she acquired the ammunition was not a resident of this state.


Am I interpreting the law wrong? I know it's not till next year, but it's relative to this discussion.

Link to the bill:
https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/f...01520160SB1235

[ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ]

Originally Posted by OCRebote78

Am I interpreting the law wrong? I know it's not till next year, but it's relative to this discussion.

PC30368 was part of Section 14 of SB1235. Section 14 of SB1235 did not become effective because Prop 63 passed.

[OCRebote78]

Originally Posted by ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

PC30368 was part of Section 14 of SB1235. Section 14 of SB1235 did not become effective because Prop 63 passed.

So Prop 63 supercedes the law Gov. Moon Beam actually signed?

[gimebakmybulits]

Originally Posted by OCRebote78

So Prop 63 supercedes the law Gov. Moon Beam actually signed?

This thread shows what was struck
https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/....php?t=1264635

[OCRebote78]

Originally Posted by gimebakmybulits

This thread shows what was struck
https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/....php?t=1264635

Thanks for that.

[Librarian]

Originally Posted by OCRebote78

But starting in 2019 the law completely exempts an out of sate resident:

Senate Bill No. 1235

30368. (a) Commencing July 1, 2019, a resident of this state shall not bring or transport into this state any ammunition that he or she purchased from outside of this state unless he or she first has that ammunition delivered to an ammunition vendor in this state for delivery to that resident pursuant to the procedures set forth in Section 30366.

(b) Subdivision (a) does not apply to any of the following bringing or transporting into this state any ammunition:

(13) A person that at the time he or she acquired the ammunition was not a resident of this state.


Am I interpreting the law wrong? I know it's not till next year, but it's relative to this discussion.

Link to the bill:
https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/f...01520160SB1235

Please stop referring to any bills; the combination of Prop 63 and various bills has been chaptered into the Penal Code; the bills are useful for historical purposes only.

[MeatAxe]

Skimming through the new CA ammunition restrictions, it appears that most of the law is applied to what a CA Resident may or may not do.

I'm wondering, as a non-resident of CA, am I free to bring in my own ammo for personal use from out of state by air or car?

If so, are there any restrictions on quantity of rounds or lead composition I can bring in? (Of course, if I hunt in CA, i'll bring in lead-free bullets as necessary to comply with CA law.)

Thanks!

[MontClaire]

This stupid law does not apply to non CA residents. You can bring all ammo you want across the state line.

[MeatAxe]

Originally Posted by MontClaire

This stupid law does not apply to non CA residents. You can bring all ammo you want across the state line.

Well that sounds good (for me, anyway). I hate to see CA gun owners having to jump through these idiotic hoops, though. ****ing bull****.

I plan on bringing in a thousand or more rounds at a time when I come to visit friends and family in CA, which will be happening periodically a few times a year.

Are there any restrictions on me stockpiling ammo, say in a storage locker, when I leave CA, or giving it to immediate family members within CA?

Also, as a non-resident, would I be allowed to buy ammunition in CA?

Thanks!

[CSACANNONEER]

Originally Posted by gimebakmybulits

That ",or transferor" is the person who is making a transfer of ownership of ammunition(property) in a face-to-face transaction without the need of an Ammunition Vendor because it's a gift or trade.

Possibly. However, a "trade" can still be legally considered a "sale" since the receiving party is exchanging something of value for the ammo. Or, are you trying to say that legally the only way it can be a "sale" is if US dollars are exchanged? What about other currency like crypto currency, foreign currencies, shells or beads? Would using one of those be legally considered a "trade"?

[jeremiah12]

Originally Posted by CSACANNONEER

This is interesting. There's no question that an out of state resident can legally import ammo into CA without going through a LAV. When it comes to transferring ownership here's the actual text of the law:


30312.

(a) (1) Commencing January 1, 2018, the sale of ammunition by any party shall be conducted by or processed through a licensed ammunition vendor.

(2) When neither party to an ammunition sale is a licensed ammunition vendor, the seller shall deliver the ammunition to a vendor to process the transaction. The ammunition vendor shall promptly and properly deliver the ammunition to the purchaser, if the sale is not prohibited, as if the ammunition were the vendor’s own merchandise. If the ammunition vendor cannot legally deliver the ammunition to the purchaser, the vendor shall forthwith return the ammunition to the seller. The ammunition vendor may charge the purchaser an administrative fee to process the transaction, in an amount to be set by the Department of Justice, in addition to any applicable fees that may be charged pursuant to the provisions of this title.

(b) Commencing January 1, 2018, the sale, delivery, or transfer of ownership of ammunition by any party may only occur in a face-to-face transaction with the seller, deliverer, or transferor, provided, however, that ammunition may be purchased or acquired over the Internet or through other means of remote ordering if a licensed ammunition vendor initially receives the ammunition and processes the transaction in compliance with this section and Article 3 (commencing with Section 30342) of Chapter 1 of Division 10 of Title 4 of this part.

Well, (a) would not apply to a gift since, the law clearly only says "sale". Now, (b) does include "sale", "delivery" and "transfer" so, it would apply to a gift. While it does include "transforor", it does not appear to require a "transferor" to be present or included in the exchange because, the law was written with the word "OR" instead of "and". Also, (b) is a stand alone clause and does not include the requirement to go through a LAV like (a) does. I know what CA DOJ would say but, is it legal even if they don't want it to be? It might be.

I have read (b) several times and thought it over of a day and I am still utterly confused by its meaning.

(a) is definitely referring to sales. A gift is not a sale. What about an exchange? I have a box of .45 I do not need that I will trade for your box of 9 mm you do not need? I would not call that a sale since both sides come out about the same. Of course the state might want to call that a sale and consider it two different transactions.

A FTF transaction requires two parties. I believe your confusion is with the word transferor. A transferor is the person initiating the exchange, not the person on the receiving end. So the seller, deliverer, or transferor all reference the party giving away the ammo either by selling it, delivering it as an agent for someone else, or as a gift or for whatever reason. The party receiving it is not mentioned but assumed to be there because a FTF transaction requires a giver and a receiver.

Back to the confusion: (a) says the sale of any ammunition by any party has to be conducted though a LAV but (b) says the sale, delivery or transfer of ammo can only occur in a FTF transaction provided that (I am rewording a bit to fit what I believe the meaning to be) if party A acquired the ammo over the Internet or a phone order he would have to first have it sent to a LAV to have it processed then Party A could transfer it to Party B.

(a) says a sale has to go through a LAV but (b) seemingly says one party can sell to another in a FTF transaction without needing to go through a LAV.

With that contradiction, then can one safely say if it is not a sale, just a gift or exchange, it can be done FTF without going through a LAV.

Add to all the confusion, I believe (I could be wrong) right now there is no paperwork for LAV. I have not bought ammo but from the few stories I have heard from people buying at Walmart, they just show ID, pay, and are on their way. If that is the case, then all one needs to do is go into the store of a LAV and exchange the ammo with the vendor watching and everything is good. That is until 7/1/19.

It is poorly written. There is no doubt the politicians and the majority of voters have jumped well over the line to passing extremely confusing and unenforceable laws that will have no effect on criminals and cause many of the law abiding to just give up and give up guns or give up trying to live as a law abiding citizen. We are truly treated as subjects in this state.

[MeatAxe]

You need another flow chart devoted to the new ammo restrictions (like you have for "assault weapons." etc.). This is just too much material to have to wade through if you have a specific question.

Make it for CA residents and non-residents alike. I take it that non-residents are immune to such bull**** under the new ammo restrictions?

If so, you could put a bullet point off to the side that says: "Restrictions not applicable to non-residents" (if that is indeed the case).

CA gun owners need to make friends with non-residents driving into CA with space in their car trunks!

[OCRebote78]

Originally Posted by Librarian

Please stop referring to any bills; the combination of Prop 63 and various bills has been chaptered into the Penal Code; the bills are useful for historical purposes only.

Noted.

[Skip_Dog]

Ok I have one.
Me and the wife go to Reno. She buys 1,000 rounds of ammo. We go to the car and she hands me the case of ammo and gives me a kiss and says "Here you go. Here is a gift for being you." She gives me another kiss and off we go back home to Ca.

Legal?

[Chewy65]

Originally Posted by Johnny Lightning

How is any of this enforceable?. It would be a pleasure to take this to a jury. "Ladies and gentlemen of the Jury, Mr. Lightning is accused of selling a single box of Federal 12 Ga. Game Loads to his friend Jim". Case................Dismissed!!!!.

What makes you think you have a right to trial by jury for a first time infraction?

[gimebakmybulits]

Originally Posted by CSACANNONEER

Possibly. However, a "trade" can still be legally considered a "sale" since the receiving party is exchanging something of value for the ammo. Or, are you trying to say that legally the only way it can be a "sale" is if US dollars are exchanged? What about other currency like crypto currency, foreign currencies, shells or beads? Would using one of those be legally considered a "trade"?

Definitely something for the legal minds to work out.
The answer may lie somewhere in here. https://www.law.cornell.edu/ucc/2
"sale" consists in the passing of title from the seller to the buyer for a price
What does "price" consist of? Way beyond my pay grade.

[Librarian]

Originally Posted by CSACANNONEER

Possibly. However, a "trade" can still be legally considered a "sale" since the receiving party is exchanging something of value for the ammo. Or, are you trying to say that legally the only way it can be a "sale" is if US dollars are exchanged? What about other currency like crypto currency, foreign currencies, shells or beads? Would using one of those be legally considered a "trade"?

I agree.

A trade is 'value for value''; one presumes each participant is happy with his/her end of the deal.

This stuff we call 'money' represents value*. While vastly the more frequent occurrence, using money in exchange for goods is easily thought to be a subset of 'trade'.





* arguing monetary theory goes to Off Topic - does not fit in this thread or forum.