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Competition, Action Shooting And Training. Competition, Three gun, IPSC, IDPA , and Training discussion here.

View Poll Results: What are your feelings about Front Sight?
Great Training for Beginners Only. 70 7.96%
Great Training Beginner and Advanced. 595 67.69%
The Quality of Training is Going Down Hill. 19 2.16%
I paid too much for my Membership! 40 4.55%
They will go out of business this year! 21 2.39%
Don't want anything to do with them! 134 15.24%
Voters: 879. You may not vote on this poll

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  #9561  
Old 06-04-2018, 12:33 PM
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ya, the body count was pretty high in most of those scenarios.
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  #9562  
Old 06-04-2018, 2:27 PM
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ya, the body count was pretty high in most of those scenarios.
I stopped when I realized I had lost, but one of them said we shouldn't just stop fighting and concede defeat. The correct thing he said was to keep fighting, because the brain may have a few precious seconds of control even after the heart or aorta is shot and the shots you take in those seconds may still save our loved ones.

Of course not if we're shot in the cranio-occipital region...
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  #9563  
Old 06-05-2018, 9:14 AM
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Yeah, it's sad that the instructors have to buy their own ammo with the meager salary they get
Any idea what they make? Front Sight instructor might make a good retirement job when I'm too old to do my normal job, but to young to quit working
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  #9564  
Old 06-05-2018, 9:23 AM
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Not much considering. $11 to start and up to $21 for a Range Master is my understanding.
The guy that picks up brass makes more.
I worked a job like their for a bit. You do it for the experience and fun. After a while then it is time to go make money. I imagine they would pay more if the pool of applicants wasnít as deep.
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  #9565  
Old 06-05-2018, 3:13 PM
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Anyone heading out in the next couple weeks? My daughter wants a shirt for her bday. Iím not going back until October.
I can PayPal F/F funds or if your in the OC area, Iíll drop off the $.
PM is ok for communication. Thank you!


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  #9566  
Old 06-05-2018, 3:33 PM
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Any idea what they make? Front Sight instructor might make a good retirement job when I'm too old to do my normal job, but to young to quit working
Don't count on being able to work 8-10 hours a day on your feet, standing all day in the sun after retirement. I'm not sure if I can do that after retirement.

Remember they have zero health benefits. Dental? Vision? No way.

The senior guys are actually much younger than they look. I've been asking them their ages once I feel comfortable asking. How young they actually are will astound you.

I'd much rather be a student at FS than an instructor. Watching people shoot is nowhere as fun as shooting. A student can always sit out an exercise or two if he wishes, an instructor can't.
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  #9567  
Old 06-05-2018, 9:41 PM
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Don't count on being able to work 8-10 hours a day on your feet, standing all day in the sun after retirement. I'm not sure if I can do that after retirement.

Remember they have zero health benefits. Dental? Vision? No way.

The senior guys are actually much younger than they look. I've been asking them their ages once I feel comfortable asking. How young they actually are will astound you.

I'd much rather be a student at FS than an instructor. Watching people shoot is nowhere as fun as shooting. A student can always sit out an exercise or two if he wishes, an instructor can't.
If I'm retired it means I've saved enough money to live out the rest of my days in some modicum of comfort, including healthcare. Instructing world just be a side gig to supplement, and have fun. I thoroughly enjoy teaching my circle about guns, going pro might be worth a look if income is not a factor. Beats wasting away at a slot machine!
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  #9568  
Old 06-06-2018, 5:18 AM
Jerry1834 Jerry1834 is offline
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I''ll just stay retired and play - for the younger guys just keep putting it away and don't forget SS for us retired folk - I did range work after retirement - was OK - gave me something to do and I enjoyed it - probably would do it again if I felt the need - FS instructor would probably be a good gig providing you retired in comfort and the job was on your terms - like part time or 4 days and 3 off....
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  #9569  
Old 06-07-2018, 4:24 AM
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Iíve got a couple of HCM equipment questions:

What pistols are most prevalent in the HCM classes?

I DGd the 4ddhg and was 3 points shy of dg on the tactical hg (both on my first try) with a Glock 19. I would have DGd tactical Hg as well except I put new sights on the gun a few days before the class and they were slightly off which killed me on the distance shots.

Iíve come to really dislike the idea of using a Glock since I get severe Glock knuckle and it really hurts. Iím thinking of using one of my p320s in the class as I shoot it fairly well but I may pick up a m&p 2.0 as well. I know 9mm is considered minor scoring so should I stick with it or go with my 45 (I have both).

Also - can you use a WML on the HCM test?
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  #9570  
Old 06-07-2018, 4:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jdr99a View Post
Iíve got a couple of HCM equipment questions:

What pistols are most prevalent in the HCM classes?

I DGd the 4ddhg and was 3 points shy of dg on the tactical hg (both on my first try) with a Glock 19. I would have DGd tactical Hg as well except I put new sights on the gun a few days before the class and they were slightly off which killed me on the distance shots.

Iíve come to really dislike the idea of using a Glock since I get severe Glock knuckle and it really hurts. Iím thinking of using one of my p320s in the class as I shoot it fairly well but I may pick up a m&p 2.0 as well. I know 9mm is considered minor scoring so should I stick with it or go with my 45 (I have both).

Also - can you use a WML on the HCM test?

Are you sure you were 3 points shy of DG in Tactical Handgun? Thereís no test in Tactical - maybe there was in the past?

Iíve heard the gun to use is G34. Also, I donít think minor or major matters in HCM.
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  #9571  
Old 06-07-2018, 4:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jdr99a View Post
Iíve got a couple of HCM equipment questions:



What pistols are most prevalent in the HCM classes?



I DGd the 4ddhg and was 3 points shy of dg on the tactical hg (both on my first try) with a Glock 19. I would have DGd tactical Hg as well except I put new sights on the gun a few days before the class and they were slightly off which killed me on the distance shots.



Iíve come to really dislike the idea of using a Glock since I get severe Glock knuckle and it really hurts. Iím thinking of using one of my p320s in the class as I shoot it fairly well but I may pick up a m&p 2.0 as well. I know 9mm is considered minor scoring so should I stick with it or go with my 45 (I have both).



Also - can you use a WML on the HCM test?


Glocks and other striker fired are definitely popular in the class, a few 1911ís and Iíve seen a revolver once or twice.
My suggestion is to go with you Glock the first time and see how you like it. As far as minor and major caliber I see both, maybe slightly more 9mm. I donít remember what the rules say about lights.

Youíre going to be taking the class so many times youíll have plenty of time to use different pistols and see what you do best with. Happy shooting- I love HCM.
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  #9572  
Old 06-07-2018, 4:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AR15fan View Post
Are you sure you were 3 points shy of DG in Tactical Handgun? Thereís no test in Tactical - maybe there was in the past?



Iíve heard the gun to use is G34. Also, I donít think minor or major matters in HCM.


The full size glocks are definitely nice if you do well with them. Iíve tried both and I just shoot my 19 better when I have to be fast. That grip on the 17 just messes me up for some reason.
Minor and major caliber matter for scoring.
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  #9573  
Old 06-07-2018, 4:59 AM
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Minor and major caliber matter for scoring.
Thanks. Learn something new every day!
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  #9574  
Old 06-07-2018, 5:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AR15fan View Post
Are you sure you were 3 points shy of DG in Tactical Handgun? There’s no test in Tactical - maybe there was in the past?

I’ve heard the gun to use is G34. Also, I don’t think minor or major matters in HCM.
There was a test in tactical handgun - at least when I took the class about a year and a half ago. I don’t think there is a test in advanced tactical handgun - which I stilll need to take.

Last edited by Jdr99a; 06-07-2018 at 5:41 AM.. Reason: Spelling
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  #9575  
Old 06-07-2018, 5:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jdr99a View Post
There was a test in tactical handgun - at least she I took the class aueasr and a half ago. I donít think there is a test in advanced tactical handgun - which I stilll need to take.
Understood. There is now no test in the 2018 Tactical Handgun Class.
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  #9576  
Old 06-07-2018, 11:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jdr99a View Post
Iíve got a couple of HCM equipment questions:

What pistols are most prevalent in the HCM classes?

I DGd the 4ddhg and was 3 points shy of dg on the tactical hg (both on my first try) with a Glock 19. I would have DGd tactical Hg as well except I put new sights on the gun a few days before the class and they were slightly off which killed me on the distance shots.

Iíve come to really dislike the idea of using a Glock since I get severe Glock knuckle and it really hurts. Iím thinking of using one of my p320s in the class as I shoot it fairly well but I may pick up a m&p 2.0 as well. I know 9mm is considered minor scoring so should I stick with it or go with my 45 (I have both).

Also - can you use a WML on the HCM test?
As stated by others, most common guns are Glocks and 1911's.

If you have used your Glock 19 for 4dHG and Tactical HG, then use it for your first attempt at HCMP. I used my Glock 23 in HCMP for many years.

Most will eventually go to a full size or competition size Glock 17/22/34/35 to take advantage of the longer sight radius.

A minor caliber, such as 9mm, cost you more points off on a peripheral shot (-4) versus a major caliber, such as .40 or 45 (-3 for a peripheral).

There would be no need for a weapons mounted light - leave it off of the gun.

An optic or Red Dot will disqualify you from passing the test. You are free to shoot the test, but your score will not count.

In summary, for your first time out, bring a Glock and have fun. Your first time is more about learning and seeing the test than actually trying to pass it.
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  #9577  
Old 06-07-2018, 11:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jdr99a View Post
There was a test in tactical handgun - at least when I took the class about a year and a half ago. I don’t think there is a test in advanced tactical handgun - which I stilll need to take.
The closest we came to taking a "test" in the current ATHG was the timed scenario where you are seated facing away from the range and have get up, turn around to shoot at a paper adversary standing right behind you*, then shoot at two steel targets at, what, 10-15 yards away, step to the right past a wall and shoot at another steel target. Everyone is timed while the rest of the squad watches. But, as long as you didn't come in dead last, no one notices LOL

I still remember the test in the old ATHG. More like a HGCM Prep.


* did anyone shoot with the unconventional response to the rear close contact, where you are bending over, shooting with your head upside down?
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  #9578  
Old 06-07-2018, 2:29 PM
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. . .


* did anyone shoot with the unconventional response to the rear close contact, where you are bending over, shooting with your head upside down?
Isn't that what the FBI agent demonstrated on the dance floor???
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  #9579  
Old 06-07-2018, 6:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jdr99a View Post
Iíve come to really dislike the idea of using a Glock since I get severe Glock knuckle and it really hurts. Iím thinking of using one of my p320s in the class as I shoot it fairly well but I may pick up a m&p 2.0 as well. I know 9mm is considered minor scoring so should I stick with it or go with my 45 (I have both).

Also - can you use a WML on the HCM test?
Good luck on your quest.

You can cut a groove to make space for your knuckle using a dowel with sandpaper, or a dremel if you are so inclined. Alternatively, you can use athletic tape on your knuckle.
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  #9580  
Old 06-07-2018, 10:03 PM
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Isn't that what the FBI agent demonstrated on the dance floor???
LOL

Is there a video of that?
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  #9581  
Old 06-08-2018, 6:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LV_G22 View Post
...
A minor caliber, such as 9mm, cost you more points off on a peripheral shot (-4) versus a major caliber, such as .40 or 45 (-3 for a peripheral)...
Interesting that they differentiate as nowadays most of the public, LEOs and military shoot a 9mm.
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  #9582  
Old 06-08-2018, 6:44 AM
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LOL

Is there a video of that?
https://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2018/0...l-shooting.cnn
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  #9583  
Old 06-08-2018, 7:53 AM
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Quote:
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Interesting that they differentiate as nowadays most of the public, LEOs and military shoot a 9mm.
It's part of the lineage, just like the hard weaver.

This is just Chuck Taylor dogma from the time Naish trained with him.

IMO.

Lots of training like that, if you look at the lineage you can see the knowledge/dogma transmitted.
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  #9584  
Old 06-08-2018, 8:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tanks View Post
Interesting that they differentiate as nowadays most of the public, LEOs and military shoot a 9mm.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rkt88edmo View Post
It's part of the lineage, just like the hard weaver.

This is just Chuck Taylor dogma from the time Naish trained with him.

IMO.

Lots of training like that, if you look at the lineage you can see the knowledge/dogma transmitted.
This is not about dogma, or the usual arguments about caliber and stopping power.

This is about maintaining the consistency and integrity of the test over the years.
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  #9585  
Old 06-08-2018, 2:48 PM
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Looks like we have a new FS Handgun Combat Master.

Zach McCormick passed today using a Glock 19X

Congrats Zach!!!
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  #9586  
Old 06-08-2018, 5:01 PM
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Congrats Zach!
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  #9587  
Old 06-09-2018, 6:00 AM
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19x!
Awesome
I got to shoot one at FS last month and it seemed like a sweet shooter.
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  #9588  
Old 06-09-2018, 1:03 PM
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Thanks everyone for offering to help. It seems there are empty shelves the whole store. Youíd think if anything, they would stock FS T-shirtís.
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  #9589  
Old 06-13-2018, 9:35 AM
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? I was out there a week ago and seemed to be plenty of inventory. The FS branded stuff was there, the remaining 5.11 vests were all S, but the pants on the wall seemed to be stocked well.
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  #9590  
Old 06-13-2018, 9:40 AM
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Congrats Zach!


Yeah thatís awesome. He was close and finally got it.
I was out for private HGCM last weekend - man what a hard test. Haha
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  #9591  
Old 06-13-2018, 11:45 AM
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I was out for private HGCM last weekend - man what a hard test. Haha
I've been interested in the HGCM. I've DG'd DH 2/2 (-3 the last time). I'm not close to being able to pass the HGCM test and it doesn't seem like a four day HGCM class would be enough to get you through the test unless you come in basically very close to passing it. How is the class from a training standpoint if you're not to that level?
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  #9592  
Old 06-13-2018, 12:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nszzya View Post
I've been interested in the HGCM. I've DG'd DH 2/2 (-3 the last time). I'm not close to being able to pass the HGCM test and it doesn't seem like a four day HGCM class would be enough to get you through the test unless you come in basically very close to passing it. How is the class from a training standpoint if you're not to that level?


Pretty much everyone there is for the training aspect and improving along their journey towards combat master. The drills in the 4 day course are fun. You pretty much practice the different aspects of the test at different speeds.
Donít take the course with the expectation of doing fantastic on the test. Thatís most likely years in the making for someone thatís committed.
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  #9593  
Old 06-13-2018, 12:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Royal_Cake View Post
Pretty much everyone there is for the training aspect and improving along their journey towards combat master. The drills in the 4 day course are fun. You pretty much practice the different aspects of the test at different speeds.
Don’t take the course with the expectation of doing fantastic on the test. That’s most likely years in the making for someone that’s committed.
Great answer! Thanks.

Edit: BTW, have you done both HCMP and private HCMP? If so, any pros/cons to either?

Last edited by nszzya; 06-13-2018 at 1:02 PM..
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  #9594  
Old 06-13-2018, 2:29 PM
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Yeah thatís awesome. He was close and finally got it.
I was out for private HGCM last weekend - man what a hard test. Haha
What Range were you on? I was doing Private HCMT on Range 9 this past weekend...
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  #9595  
Old 06-13-2018, 2:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nszzya View Post
I've been interested in the HGCM. I've DG'd DH 2/2 (-3 the last time). I'm not close to being able to pass the HGCM test and it doesn't seem like a four day HGCM class would be enough to get you through the test unless you come in basically very close to passing it. How is the class from a training standpoint if you're not to that level?
Sounds like it is time for your to take HCMP. You do NOT need to be close to passing the test in order to take the 4-day HCMP.

In fact, you should take it once just to see what the test is all about. Then you can decide if you would like to pursue it. Next, lots of dry practice with a timer
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  #9596  
Old 06-13-2018, 2:33 PM
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What Range were you on? I was doing Private HCMT on Range 9 this past weekend...


Oh hey- I was right next to you on 8, with the big red beard. I was watching you guys for a while- learning. Haha.
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Old 06-13-2018, 2:40 PM
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Oh hey- I was right next to you on 8, with the big red beard. I was watching you guys for a while- learning. Haha.
Yup, saw you "next door". Black and Yellow "old style" CA plates....

Keep practicing! Live and dry.....

Stop by and say hello next time you are out.
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  #9598  
Old 06-13-2018, 2:47 PM
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Yup, saw you "next door". Black and Yellow "old style" CA plates....



Keep practicing! Live and dry.....



Stop by and say hello next time you are out.


Yup thatís me. Yeah Iíll absolutely come by. Iíve been with you guys in the full classes as well - always a learning experience. Take it easy!
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  #9599  
Old 06-14-2018, 3:56 AM
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steelciocc steelciocc is offline
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IMO the HCMP class is the best class Front Sight offers. You will be a significantly better shooter at the end of the class.

Yeah, youíre not going to be anywhere near ďpassingĒ it for a long time but itís great, structured range time that will make you a better shooter.
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  #9600  
Old 06-14-2018, 9:34 AM
Mustard Mustard is offline
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Originally Posted by steelciocc View Post
IMO the HCMP class is the best class Front Sight offers. You will be a significantly better shooter at the end of the class.

Yeah, youíre not going to be anywhere near ďpassingĒ it for a long time but itís great, structured range time that will make you a better shooter.
Have any "celebrity" shooters gone through front sight? Jerry miculek for example. Would be interesting to know how they did.
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