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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #401  
Old 01-16-2009, 4:16 PM
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Originally Posted by CCWFacts View Post
The PC allows it. How good of a friend is your issuing authority?
Heh, not so much...I'm one of the plebes that's going to have to wait for shall-issue CCW. I was just wondering out loud, but that's an interesting piece of information to know that you can put a SBR on a CA CCW. Thanks
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  #402  
Old 01-16-2009, 4:51 PM
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Think they'd let you put a SBR on a CCW?
I know it's not CA, but it's a funny story. I have a friend named Ira, we call him the Wookie because he's about the size of one and just as hairy. Anyways, he lives up in Washington (Seattle area) and carries a 20ga Serbu super-shorty as his CCW piece on occasion

Yes, I know it's an AOW, but it's still a 20ga shotgun.
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Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes...Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.
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  #403  
Old 01-16-2009, 11:32 PM
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...

(I'd also wonder about retention of C&R status if a new shorty bbl were installed. Others more familiar w/C&R matters should speak up here.)
Remember, there are two types of C&Rs. Those that have the status due to age (50+years) and those that are new, but are a special "collectible" edition.

Logically, the age-determined C&Rs shouldn't lose their status due to replacing or modifying the barrel length. On the other hand, the "collectible" C&Rs need to maintain their original condition or they are thought to have lost their collectible value and are no longer C&Rs.

Where some confusion may come from were certain (French ?) import rifles that were built from 50+ year old receivers, but had been re-manufactured into a different calliber and (I believe) re-marked less than 50 years ago.
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  #404  
Old 01-16-2009, 11:38 PM
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Originally Posted by adamsreeftank View Post
Logically, the age-determined C&Rs shouldn't lose their status due to replacing or modifying the barrel length. On the other hand, the "collectible" C&Rs need to maintain their original condition or they are thought to have lost their collectible value and are no longer C&Rs.
so then does that mean I can chop the barrel on my 1930's side by side 12 gauge and mount it under my ar ?
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  #405  
Old 01-17-2009, 8:59 AM
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Originally Posted by sorensen440 View Post
so then does that mean I can chop the barrel on my 1930's side by side 12 gauge and mount it under my ar ?
No. Not unless your AR is already registered as an AW. Mounting that kind of "attachment" would make an AW.

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  #406  
Old 01-17-2009, 9:00 AM
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No. Not unless your AR is already registered as an AW. Mounting that kind of "attachment" would make an AW.

Justin
Unless there was a maglock
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  #407  
Old 01-17-2009, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by sorensen440 View Post
Unless there was a maglock
I'm not even sure that the maglock would be necessary (though it might still be a good idea). If it can be successfully argued that the accessory is a shotgun, not a flare launcher, then that shotgun wouldn't be a banned feature. The only risk I see would be that a DA might point out the availability of 12ga flare cartridges and call it a flare launcher, but I think the defense could argue that it's a serialized, registered, tax-stamped AOW/SBS gun firing fixed ammunition, and thus is not a flare launcher any more than any other shotgun would be.

Similarly, I would not expect one of those little 2-3 round pump shotguns intended for firing breaching rounds would be considered a flare or grenade launcher.
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  #408  
Old 01-17-2009, 12:22 PM
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I'm not even sure that the maglock would be necessary (though it might still be a good idea). If it can be successfully argued that the accessory is a shotgun, not a flare launcher, then that shotgun wouldn't be a banned feature. The only risk I see would be that a DA might point out the availability of 12ga flare cartridges and call it a flare launcher, but I think the defense could argue that it's a serialized, registered, tax-stamped AOW/SBS gun firing fixed ammunition, and thus is not a flare launcher any more than any other shotgun would be.

Similarly, I would not expect one of those little 2-3 round pump shotguns intended for firing breaching rounds would be considered a flare or grenade launcher.
I probably would not want to take a chance on this if I was putting it on a featureless build. Also, only do this with a SBS, the general consensus is that if you were to do this with an AOW it may count as putting a stock on it which would bump it into the SBS category which would be big time illegal.
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  #409  
Old 01-23-2009, 6:07 PM
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So if one owned a reg'd AW like an SP89; would having an NFA trust allow them to fit a K grip onto it? Do you set up one trust per AOW or C&R SBS?
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  #410  
Old 01-23-2009, 6:23 PM
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You can put multiple weapons in one trust.
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  #411  
Old 01-23-2009, 7:55 PM
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How very cool... then I can start a stamp collection! Excellent.

I'm gonna AOW my SP89. And get SBR stamps for the Uzis (for when they find themselves out of state).
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  #412  
Old 01-23-2009, 8:14 PM
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The problem I see with mounting a shotgun on an AR, even if the shotgun is a registered SBS and the AR is a registered AW or has a maglock is that the AR may be considered a SBR due to the shotgun barrel. Unforunately, you can't SBR an AR unless you can find one that is a C&R.
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  #413  
Old 01-23-2009, 10:09 PM
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I guess there will be C&R AR's coming down the pipe soon, yes? Rare they will be, though.
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  #414  
Old 01-23-2009, 11:16 PM
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Originally Posted by adamsreeftank View Post
The problem I see with mounting a shotgun on an AR, even if the shotgun is a registered SBS and the AR is a registered AW or has a maglock is that the AR may be considered a SBR due to the shotgun barrel. Unforunately, you can't SBR an AR unless you can find one that is a C&R.
Does the AR have a 16" barrel or greater, has a stock, and is greater than 26" in length? If yes, then it's not an SBR and can never be an SBR.

Attaching an SBS to it does not make the host gun anything other than what it already was.
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Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes...Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.
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  #415  
Old 01-24-2009, 2:51 AM
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Originally Posted by bdsmchs View Post
Does the AR have a 16" barrel or greater, has a stock, and is greater than 26" in length? If yes, then it's not an SBR and can never be an SBR.

Attaching an SBS to it does not make the host gun anything other than what it already was.
I'm not sure the ATF would agree with you.

And that is the major problem with anything that is out of the ordinary. ATF has discretion to pretty much make any determination and act upon it.
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  #416  
Old 01-24-2009, 5:36 AM
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You can mount a SBS on a Title I rifle and the Title I rifle will always be a Title I rifle. You cannot mount an AOW on a Title I weapon, but I have a letter to the ATF regarding this issue. I spoke with a few guys at the NFA branch and said they agree with me that if the stock isn't directly attached to the AOW receiver, it's still an AOW. But it's all up to the director of the firearms tech branch across the hall.
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  #417  
Old 01-24-2009, 11:14 AM
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I spoke with a few guys at the NFA branch and said they agree with me that if the stock isn't directly attached to the AOW receiver, it's still an AOW. But it's all up to the director of the firearms tech branch across the hall.
Wow, that would be sweet if it were to work out.
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  #418  
Old 01-24-2009, 9:39 PM
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I spoke with a few guys at the NFA branch and said they agree with me that if the stock isn't directly attached to the AOW receiver, it's still an AOW. But it's all up to the director of the firearms tech branch across the hall.
Please make this happen. I want a master key SOOOOOOO BADLY. I would much rather go the AOW route in CA since I can build it on a brand new gun, rather than the SBS route that would require going the C&R route.
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Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes...Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.
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  #419  
Old 02-15-2009, 1:54 PM
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Default AOW question

So if one was to build an AOW (AR pistol w/ VFG) using the trust route, would it have to start life as an AR pistol? Or would you be able to AOW a stripped reciever and upon receiving the tax stamp then proceed to add the pistol upper and everything else to complete it?
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  #420  
Old 02-15-2009, 2:31 PM
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you should be able to do it either way. With a complete pistol or a strippped receiver (that can legally be built into a pistol). YOu are asking for permission to make an Any Other Weapon. YOu could even file a Form 1 with nothing in hand at all if you were gonna scratch build your own receiver.
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  #421  
Old 02-15-2009, 4:22 PM
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So if I recently purchased a stripped receiver that came directly from the manufacturer to my shop as a stripped lower, I should be ok to file the paperwork to build an AOW and continue with the build?
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  #422  
Old 02-15-2009, 4:32 PM
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ok, you are an FFL and have it in your books as a stripped lower directly from the manufacturer. Are you gonna AOW it in the shops name?

If not, how are you gonna get in your personal name or trust to do the Form 1? In order to do that, it would need to transfered to you as a handgun, so it may need to be built up in a single-shot roster-exempt configuration to be able to log it out. I dunno about any roster exemptions that you may have.

If you're gonna AOW it, there is no harm in building it up in a pistol config before hand. Just don't put on the VFG and make it a AOW before you have an approved Form 1.
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  #423  
Old 02-15-2009, 4:39 PM
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No, I'm not an FFL. When I said my shop, I meant my local gunshop. Sorry for the confusion. I contacted the manufacturer of the lower and they would not give me documentation that it had been just a stripped lower because "they could not guarantee what had happened to it once it left the factory" It was listed on the 4473 as a receiver but was of course DROS'd as a longgun. Am I doomed to have this lower built into nothing but a rifle?

I was just curious if the AOW stamp would allow to build the AR pistol from a virgin receiver rather than having to purchase a complete "single-shot" pistol from out of state.

I was going to setup the Trust. Transfer the lower to the Trust. Then once approved, proceed to build it up.

Last edited by Rukus; 02-15-2009 at 4:39 PM.. Reason: clarification
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  #424  
Old 02-15-2009, 4:49 PM
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OK, gotcha.

Right now, I wouldn't try to build a pistol/AOW off of a receiver DROSed as a long gun. Even though it is legal to take a PG-only shotgun DROSed as a long gun and turn it into a smooth-bore pistol which is an AOW. The Right People here on Calguns are not recommending that stripped receivers DROSed as long guns be made into handguns even though it should be perfectly legal to do so.

Much as been talked about how the ATF has stated that the bound book and how something in 4473'ed as a long gun does not mean that a receiver is actually a rifle that can't be made into a handgun.

If you feel that you can legally make a Other 4473'd and "long gun" DROSed virgin receiver can be built up into a pistol, then you should be able to AOW as well.

Personally, I would only AOW an AR handgun that was DROSed as a handgun, or home-made from a <80% receiver. Maybe after we get some favorable NeRF paperwork, things may change.
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  #425  
Old 02-15-2009, 4:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Rukus View Post
I contacted the manufacturer of the lower and they would not give me documentation that it had been just a stripped lower because "they could not guarantee what had happened to it once it left the factory" It was listed on the 4473 as a receiver but was of course DROS'd as a longgun. Am I doomed to have this lower built into nothing but a rifle?
You're asking them the wrong question. Call them up, give them the serial number, and ask them two questions: 1.) Was FET paid, and how much? 2.) Did they book it out as a receiver, rifle, or pistol?

You don't need documentation from them, just find out how they booked it out.

If FET was paid, then the receiver was most likely booked out as a rifle or a handgun. How much was paid will tell you. If the receiver went directly from manufacturer to your shop, and was booked out from the manufacturer as a receiver, then you can pretty much be guaranteed it's virgin and you're good to go for AOW'ing it.

As far as 4473 vs DROS goes, it doesn't matter. In this case, Federal is all that matters. Since the 4473 says receiver, it's just a receiver and may be AOW'ed. BTW, you can AOW a long gun, just not a rifle or a shotgun (rifles and shotguns by definition include shoulder stocks). DROS'ing something as a "long gun" does not taint it as a shoulder-stocked rifle/shotgun.
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Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes...Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.
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  #426  
Old 02-15-2009, 4:59 PM
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ok, you are an FFL and have it in your books as a stripped lower directly from the manufacturer. Are you gonna AOW it in the shops name?

If not, how are you gonna get in your personal name or trust to do the Form 1? In order to do that, it would need to transfered to you as a handgun, so it may need to be built up in a single-shot roster-exempt configuration to be able to log it out. I dunno about any roster exemptions that you may have.

If you're gonna AOW it, there is no harm in building it up in a pistol config before hand. Just don't put on the VFG and make it a AOW before you have an approved Form 1.
You forgot about the NRF's. Perfect for making AOW's out of stuff I like.
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  #427  
Old 02-15-2009, 5:02 PM
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I didn't forget. Its just that the NeRF option has not been publically released yet. Got any inside info for us? Ready to spill the beans yet?

And that post was when I had thought that Rukus was an FFL.
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  #428  
Old 02-15-2009, 5:06 PM
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Nothing to report. It's not safe yet. But it will be a great option for people to make AK, AR, FAL, etc pistols and then AOW them.
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  #429  
Old 02-15-2009, 5:11 PM
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Originally Posted by bdsmchs View Post
You're asking them the wrong question. Call them up, give them the serial number, and ask them two questions: 1.) Was FET paid, and how much? 2.) Did they book it out as a receiver, rifle, or pistol?

You don't need documentation from them, just find out how they booked it out.
I emailed them back after their initial denial, and asked them if it would be possible for documentation that said receiver left their factory as only a receiver and not a full rifle. No response from the manufacturer.
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  #430  
Old 02-20-2009, 10:15 PM
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................

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  #431  
Old 02-20-2009, 11:56 PM
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Silver, the answer is yes.
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  #432  
Old 02-27-2009, 4:41 AM
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Ok, so I just read through most of this post... Are there any bay area Class II Manufacturer or III dealers willing to Form 4 an AOW? Thanks.
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  #433  
Old 02-27-2009, 10:41 AM
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There is a Class 02 listed in the OP that will form 4 an AOW.
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  #434  
Old 02-28-2009, 6:56 PM
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What about a cane gun? Would you be able to walk around with it, unloaded, but maybe with ammo in your pocket?
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  #435  
Old 02-28-2009, 10:55 PM
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A cane gun, properly registered as an AOW, would be exempt from 12020. I don't recall any other code sections that possession would be in violation of.

Now, to open carry it would take big brass ones. I'm not up to speed on all the nuances of UOC, so I couldn't say. But, most people familiar with NFA firearms would say to never use one in self-defense if possible. Yes, it may be legal, but plan on gettting demonized in court for using such an evil weapon.
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Do you want an AOW or C&R SBS/SBR in CA?

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Old 03-03-2009, 1:49 PM
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Under 12020b8, we can build/buy an AOW, which are weapons that don’t really fall into the pistol, rifle, or shotgun mold. The most common example would be the short-barrel shotgun-type weapons that don't have a shoulder-stock and have never had a shoulder-stock. An Example would be the Serbu Super-Shorty. Some Combo guns with a shotgun and rifle barrels less than 18" are AOW.
Would an artillery-type piece, that is built up as a dummy, then "converted" to fire a subcaliber device fall under the AOW category?
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Old 03-03-2009, 4:09 PM
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Would an artillery-type piece, that is built up as a dummy, then "converted" to fire a subcaliber device fall under the AOW category?
IIRC, functional artilllery pieces that are permanently sleeved for .50" or less ammo is no longer a DD. It would be just a Title I firearm at that point, a "long gun" if over 26" OAL. If it was concealable, less than 26", it might be considered an AOW.
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Old 03-03-2009, 6:45 PM
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It's going to be over 11' (feet, not inches)...

I have ATF paperwork that says if you use the original barrel (even though the barrel was sliced up into 4 pieces, has a hole cut in the bottom and a bolt welded in it)... That it will need the Form-1
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Old 03-03-2009, 7:25 PM
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It's going to be over 11' (feet, not inches)...
I figured as much, so I don't think they'd put an AOW label on it.

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I have ATF paperwork that says if you use the original barrel (even though the barrel was sliced up into 4 pieces, has a hole cut in the bottom and a bolt welded in it)... That it will need the Form-1
that would be above my knowledge. But I don't see why a properly demilled barrel weled back together with a sub-caliber liner would be a DD if it was under .51". I'd say that this question should be asked on the subguns.com board, or the NFA forums on AR15.com . There are plenty of RKIs on those boards that can get you squared away.

One other site, http://www.obscure-reference.com/cgi-bin/atr.cgi , is where the big boys hang out with their 40+ mm stuff. Might want to look there as well.
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Old 03-03-2009, 8:08 PM
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It's going to be over 11' (feet, not inches)...
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