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Concealed Carry Discussion General discussion regarding CCW/LTC in California

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  #1  
Old 12-03-2020, 5:25 PM
SnWnMe SnWnMe is offline
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Default Permit renewed. I'll tell you about my CCW incident now

Last Aug I had to draw my CCW on someone who kept approaching me after I told him twice not to.

I was coming down on Mt Baldy Rd after backpacking in the Cucamonga Wilderness. When I got to where the school is I saw a car that is pulled over but is partially on the road. The driver side door was open and almost in the middle of the road were a man and a woman engaged in a struggle.

Thinking that it might be an abduction I drove past and stopped a few yards ahead of the car. Another motorist was already stopped and he was trying to call the police. Problem is there is no cell service around Mt Baldy village so he asked me to keep an eye on them while he goes to get a land phone. He told me they're fighting over something in the car. After I heard this I tentatively approached but kept my distance.

The woman was screaming for me to help her so I said I don't know what is happening here so I'm staying out of it. I figured I'll just stay there and be a good witness (it's in my employer's jurisdiction).

Then she screams he has a fox in the car. The lady was pretty hysterical. The guy lets her go. This is when I realize that he is not pulling her in but pushing her away from the car to keep her from taking the fox I guess. Guy reaches into the car and shows me the animal so I said let it go. He gives the fox to the woman who then runs behind his car to a trail. I followed her just to see where this was all going and ended up behind the guy's car as well.

This is where it went south for me. The guy starts approaching me mumbling something (he didn't have any front teeth) so I politely told him not to come near. I told him twice. When he didn't heed me I pulled out the CCW and told him not to come near me or I will shoot him.

I guess that got his attention. He got mad and backed off but started taking pictures of me and my car's tags. I got the woman's name for my version of the story and departed. I failed to get the guy's tags.

I reported it to my employer and my IA. I guess nothing came out of it. Maybe the guy didn't file a complaint. I never got called in for an admin investigation at work nor a incident interview with my IA.

Every time I go over it in my head I felt that I did everything right aside from getting the guy's tags even as I paused after I produced the G29. I'm glad I paused! Threat management worked for me for this one.
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Old 12-03-2020, 5:40 PM
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Why is your employer in your story? Were you working? If not, then why report it to your employer?

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Old 12-03-2020, 5:41 PM
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What a bizarre story. A fox? Lol. Glad nothing happened!
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Old 12-03-2020, 5:51 PM
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And does 2 meth heads catch a fox? I know how they decide keeping it is a good idea, but catching.
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Old 12-03-2020, 5:53 PM
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Cool story brah!
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Old 12-03-2020, 5:59 PM
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Originally Posted by maggie06 View Post
Why is your employer in your story? Were you working? If not, then why report it to your employer?

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Any incident other than minor traffic violations that could potentially involve law enforcement has to be reported. Especially since it is in our department's jurisdiction. Better for them to find out from me than from a call.

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What a bizarre story. A fox? Lol. Glad nothing happened!
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And does 2 meth heads catch a fox? I know how they decide keeping it is a good idea, but catching.
Yes fate made me run into two crazy people and a fox and I almost ventilated someone over it.

The woman was at the side of the road helping the injured fox when the guy pulled up and grabbed the critter saying he wants it for a pet. (I gathered all this after talking to the woman before I left).
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Old 12-03-2020, 6:34 PM
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Glad it worked out for you. I am curious did you call 911 immediately at first opportunity? If so how did that go, it not why not.
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Old 12-03-2020, 6:40 PM
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Any incident other than minor traffic violations that could potentially involve law enforcement has to be reported. Especially since it is in our department's jurisdiction. Better for them to find out from me than from a call..

My employer needs to know nothing about my personal time outside of work besides traffic tickets for insurance reasons. Any employer who has that rule either has security clearance or is too damn nosy.
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Old 12-03-2020, 6:46 PM
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Any incident other than minor traffic violations that could potentially involve law enforcement has to be reported. Especially since it is in our department's jurisdiction. Better for them to find out from me than from a call.





Yes fate made me run into two crazy people and a fox and I almost ventilated someone over it.

The woman was at the side of the road helping the injured fox when the guy pulled up and grabbed the critter saying he wants it for a pet. (I gathered all this after talking to the woman before I left).

This thread delivers! Lmfao!
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Old 12-03-2020, 6:53 PM
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In all seriousness, glad to hear you didn’t have any problems with getting your CCW renewed!
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Old 12-03-2020, 6:57 PM
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Glad it all worked out. OP is aLEO?

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Old 12-03-2020, 7:04 PM
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My employer needs to know nothing about my personal time outside of work besides traffic tickets for insurance reasons. Any employer who has that rule either has security clearance or is too damn nosy.
Or is a law enforcement agency.

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Glad it worked out for you. I am curious did you call 911 immediately at first opportunity? If so how did that go, it not why not.
I didn't call 9-1-1. I did call the watch commander at the jail where I work (I'm not sworn) and reported it to him. The next day I asked one of the sworn staff to check the calls from Fontana station from the day before and there were none describing the incident.

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In all seriousness, glad to hear you didn’t have any problems with getting your CCW renewed!
At first I thought it might get yanked but then I thought again, why? Because I defended myself? Still I was kind of in suspense until today.
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Old 12-03-2020, 7:11 PM
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Now I get it. You work for an agency, but no badge, so need a ccw to carry. Now it makes sense.

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Old 12-03-2020, 7:12 PM
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Sounds like it all went the best it could have. But after realizing it was not a domestic or kidnapping situation, I hope I would have just started backing out of the situation. Let crazy people fight over a fox.
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Old 12-03-2020, 7:36 PM
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If the incident had involved Meghan Fox, it would have made some sense. The four legged creature takes this one to the Far Side.
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Old 12-03-2020, 7:41 PM
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Old 12-03-2020, 7:45 PM
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Sounds like it all went the best it could have. But after realizing it was not a domestic or kidnapping situation, I hope I would have just started backing out of the situation. Let crazy people fight over a fox.
Same
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Old 12-03-2020, 7:48 PM
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What a bizarre story. A fox? Lol. Glad nothing happened!
I was expecting a Rick-Roll at any moment.


OP: How much acid were you on when this all occurred?
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Old 12-03-2020, 7:49 PM
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Thread winner ^
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Old 12-03-2020, 7:59 PM
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So for all your posts about only using your CCW to protect yourself and family you almost shot a meth head arguing with another tweaker over a fox? Not really trying to bust your balls; I just find it kind of funny.

Glad it worked out and the male tweaker decided to back down. Another "non violent" gun use for the books that may very well have prevented actual violence from a bad guy.
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Old 12-03-2020, 8:31 PM
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Weird but happy ending finally.

Hope the fox was ok.


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Old 12-03-2020, 8:34 PM
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The following is pretty harsh. It is intended as such since bonking the OP on the side of the head with a giant rubber dildo is not possible at this time through the internet.

—-
Think about what you did. Your actions led you to draw a gun on someone! You did nothing right from the moment you opened your car door. Some would argue from the time you stopped. You became involved the second they started talking to you.

You really need to think about the lessons to be learned from this incident. You need to attend training soon. At least one course should include force on force scenarios. Request a domestic violence scenario.

1) Never stop. There was no reason that will ever turn out well for you; the best result you can hope for is a neutral one. You are not a cop (based upon comments above). The best you should do is be a good witness. I stopped while driving because a fight broke out at a stoplight. Winkin and Blinking were beating each other in my lane just long enough to freak me out. The guy behind me got rear ended due to tailgating. It was that or splatter one or both of the idiots. Lesson learned: the fighters take the risks, not the witnesses and there is nothing wrong in NOT becoming a witness.

2) In a domestic incident, one or both will turn against you. It happens almost every time. Either one of them could have produced a weapon. Now what do you do? Shoot both of them? Lesson: You placed yourself in needless jeopardy with no authority to take any action against either of them.

3) Stop being a “white knight”. This is a large topic but simps fall for female “dwama” every time. You fell for it, but students in class almost always draw their Simunition gun when the woman is on the ground and the man on top—or just appearing to lose the fight. What they do not know is in the scenario, the woman was attempting to murder her boyfriend, he had been stabbed, and he was disarming her. If the studient is really dumb, they will prone out the man and approach the woman. At that point, the woman produces her knife and attempts to stab the student. To make matters worse, the cops were already on their way and they arrive to see an unknown man pointing a gun at two people! Who gets proned out, or shot if they don’t follow commands? This is based upon actual police incidents and the cop who assisted the teacher in the class had experienced several such attacks. Lesson: Domestic violence encounters are unpredictable and attacks upon those who intervene are common. Additional lesson: The cops are not your friend despite what you have in your mind. They will point guns at you.

4) Related to #3. In 2020, women you do not know do not need to be protected, especially if you have no idea about the situation.* You assumed the woman was in trouble but found out the woman was the cause of the fight. You should have bailed out immediately at that point. Instead, your actions led an unknown contact to approach you with hostility. Lesson: Never assume the circumstances and don’t be a simp.

Overall, the OP was a white knighting fool who needlessly drew his gun on someone. This could have gone very badly for him. There is the risk of injury or death from the fight, but then there is court afterwards. It’ll cost you at least $10k in legal costs just to get it past a grand jury. In Maryland, 45 degrees is the difference between nothing and a felony. Had anyone captured that on video and it looked like the gun pointed at the methhead male, you would be doing prison time.**

Stop white knighting. Get some training. Mind your own damned business. If you cannot or will not do this, stop carrying a gun.



* Some smarty pants is going to chime in with some scenario where they know everything. Ok, fine, intervene if you know the entire story.

** In Baltimore, they go after people with money and assets. They know the poor ghetto guy has nothing other than prior felonies. They will throw him in the slammer and he does an easy six months with his friends. “Whitey” gets a few years and loses everything.

Last edited by tomrkba; 12-03-2020 at 9:14 PM..
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Old 12-03-2020, 8:48 PM
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Why pull the gun? Because a meth addict with no teeth was walking toward you? Was he holding a weapon? Was he threatening to kill you? Was he substantially larger than you and making punching gestures? Justification to use non lethal force is not the same as justification to use lethal force.
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Old 12-03-2020, 9:07 PM
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As pro 2A as I am, some people really should not carry guns.
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Old 12-03-2020, 9:33 PM
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You shoot someone who won't stop approaching you and you just might ruin your whole life.
I'd just about guarantee that later you'd wish you hadn't.
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Old 12-03-2020, 10:15 PM
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I am 5.8, 155 lbs and 67 yo. I myself would not let an angry man approach me and get close enough to hurt, maim or kill me. A perceived threat is relative to the situation. I carry CCW in Nevada, I also have insurance that will pay for an attorney and any lawsuits that derive from it. The CCW is not a license to kill, it is a license to protect yourself. I wasn't with the OP that night, I don't know the OP, I won't judge the OP.
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Old 12-04-2020, 3:16 AM
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Your mistake was getting involved in the first place. You are not an LEO and should have minded your own business. If you had to actually shoot the guy then you may have wound up in jail and/or sued. For what? someone you don't know? I'm glad it worked out but learn a lesson here. MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS!
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Old 12-04-2020, 4:40 AM
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I am 5.8, 155 lbs and 67 yo. I myself would not let an angry man approach me and get close enough to hurt, maim or kill me. A perceived threat is relative to the situation. I carry CCW in Nevada, I also have insurance that will pay for an attorney and any lawsuits that derive from it. The CCW is not a license to kill, it is a license to protect yourself. I wasn't with the OP that night, I don't know the OP, I won't judge the OP.
It is about learning the lessons. We are not white knights who are out to save damsels in distress. Given the state of American feminism today, I doubt there are any damsels left in this country.

“A perceived threat is relative to the situation.”

Your attitude is going to get you in trouble. I urge you to attend Mas Ayoob’s MAG-20 Classroom course as soon as possible before he retires.

You should review your policy and verify how closely it mirrors Utah’s rules of engagement as written in law. You may be surprised that your policy may be more strict and the conditions under which they will cover you are very narrow.
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Old 12-04-2020, 5:43 AM
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Originally Posted by CBR_rider View Post
So for all your posts about only using your CCW to protect yourself and family you almost shot a meth head arguing with another tweaker over a fox? Not really trying to bust your balls; I just find it kind of funny.

Glad it worked out and the male tweaker decided to back down. Another "non violent" gun use for the books that may very well have prevented actual violence from a bad guy.
Actually I did use it only to defend myself

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Why pull the gun? Because a meth addict with no teeth was walking toward you? Was he holding a weapon? Was he threatening to kill you? Was he substantially larger than you and making punching gestures? Justification to use non lethal force is not the same as justification to use lethal force.
Two years ago we lost an off duty deputy who got sucker punched while exchanging information after a fender bender. He fell, hit his head and died. This was pretty much what I was thinking about when I decided to draw.

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It is about learning the lessons. We are not white knights who are out to save damsels in distress. Given the state of American feminism today, I doubt there are any damsels left in this country.
I'm glad I got to armchair QB this from my home instead of while in jail. Thanks.
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Old 12-04-2020, 6:16 AM
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No reason to draw if you can escape.
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Old 12-04-2020, 7:43 AM
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This was clearly a case where a social worker was needed, maybe animal control, but certainly not any form of armed LE.
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Old 12-04-2020, 7:56 AM
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No reason to draw if you can escape.
A teethless man approaches you in vicious manner and your response is to turn around and run away?
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Old 12-04-2020, 8:34 AM
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My fervent wish is that my gun never ever come out of the holster with the exception of training and maintenance.
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Old 12-04-2020, 9:33 AM
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You know I kinda get both sides of this coin here.

Personally the gun draw to me was inappropriate and could have been a brandishing charge (at the minimum) as he was not clearly not a threat of imminent grave danger as he was weaponless.

Was he angry and menacing? sounds like it but so is the chihuahua that barks and snarls and flashes his teeth from 20 feet away.

You thought you were doing the right thing, and I get that. But all you knew is a guy and a gal were in an altercation. Not something I want to get involved with personally. I may have stopped and watched/recorded on my phone, but not gotten involved. I doubt I would have stopped personally. Not my fight.

At Artemis in the simulator the exact first scenario was a lady at an ATM at night. Dude pulls up and starts to assault her and has a knife. Even stabs her. You shoot him. His friend in the car with an AK47 (gold plated at that) opens fire upon you and there you are bleeding out on the ground with several 7.62 sized holes running through your torso. (not my training I was an observer for this scenario)

All the scenarios in their simulator are taken from real stories. This one was the guy is her pimp/boyfriend and she was stealing from him. What you don't see that they knew each other and it was a domestic dispute. My take from this was that it was just as easy to be a witness and not do anything as it was none of our business to intervene at all.


Since I have had my CCW there was one incident where I could have drawn and been justified to do so as the individual in this incident had a gun and threatened to grab it/use it. His gun was in a bag, only the butt of the grip was visible to me. It was definitely a pistol grip but what was it attached to...

I explained that he did not want to do that, that doing anything brash would make matters worse for all of us. Another person from church stepped closer to him and as we were talking I rotated my strong side away from him and my hand drifted to my 3 o'clock (strong side OWB pancake holster) and was resting on the grip of my desert eagle, and I gently and quietly took it off de-cock mode. I carry loaded and de-cocked. My Eagle de-cock completely disengages the sear and trigger much better than a traditional safety IMHO.

Anyway, we told him we could talk and pray through his issues and concerns. He was repeatedly told no one needs to get hurt you or us. He finally zipped up his bag dropped it to his side. I made my weapon safe again and removed my hand from the grip of my gun. We actually started praying for the guy and gave him a hug in the end.

Turns out he was high as a kite and delusional. Thought people were chasing him into the church. He was just having a bad day, he was homeless, habitual drug user with emotional issues. He came to our church and he just wanted someone to listen to him in a safe place. Something triggered him to freak out, I still don't know what triggered him, he mumbled something about one of our church goers was with the people chasing him.

In the end cooler heads prevailed . I didn't need to draw my weapon nor defend myself and the situation was diffused. We didn't even involve law enforcement. Oddly enough he was arrested the very next night for trying to break into our church.

I learned more than one thing from that night.

De escalation is amazing when it works and it is always better than the alternative.

I was ready to defend myself and use deadly force if necessary.

I should have involved law enforcement because he brandished and threatened the use of a weapon. It may have been an airsoft or bb gun as he never pulled it out, looked real to me from about 8 feet away.

The de escalation training kicked in and the whole thing slowed down in my mind. It seemed like and eternity while it was happening but I was told that the whole thing including the prayer time was less than 4 or 5 minutes from start to finish

I also learned that this is the best case ending for this scenario. It could have gone south real quickly for people are very unstable and unpredictable.

I learned that sometimes things are not what they seem at the time..

I carry to defend myself and my family from threats, not strangers, not to be a cop or a hero. I'll run unless I have to stand and fight. I'll fight for the lives of my family and use whatever tool I need to as the situation warrants..

Hopefully the pistol never clears the leather and I come home safe every night. Hopefully at night the pistol never clears the leather and I wake up to live another day

Last edited by KINGSFAN IN OC; 12-04-2020 at 7:58 PM.. Reason: spelling
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Old 12-04-2020, 10:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KINGSFAN IN OC View Post
You know I kinda get both sides of this coin here.

Personally the gun draw to me was inappropriate and could have been a brandishing charge (at the minimum) as he was not clearly not a threat of imminent grave danger as he was weaponless.

Was he angry and menacing? sounds like it but so is the chihuahua that barks and snarls and flashes his teeth from 20 feet away.

You thought you were doing the right thing, and I get that. But all you knew is a guy and a gal were in an altercation. Not something I want to get involved with personally. I may have stopped and watched/recorded on my phone, but not gotten involved. I doubt I would have stopped personally. Not my fight.

At Artemis in the simulator the exact first scenario was a lady at an ATM at night. Dude pulls up and starts to assault her and has a knife. Even stabs her. You shoot him. His friend in the car with an AK47 (gold plated at that) opens fire upon you and there you are bleeding out on the ground with several 7.62 sized holes running through your torso. (not my training I was an observer for this scenario)

All the scenarios in their simulator are taken from real stories. This one was the guy is her pimp/boyfriend and she was stealing from him. What you don't see that they knew each other and it was a domestic dispute. My take from this was that it was just as easy to be a witness and not do anything as it was none of our business to intervene at all.


Since I have had my CCW there was one scenario where I could have drawn and been justified to do so as the protagonist in this scenario had a gun and threatened to grab it/use it. His gun was in a bag, only the butt of the grip was visible to me. It was definitely a pistol grip but what was it attached to...

I explained that he did not want to do that, that doing anything brash would make matters worse for all of us. Another person from church stepped closer to him and as we were talking I rotated my strong side away from him and my hand drifted to my 3 o'clock (strong side OWB pancake holster) and was resting on the grip of my desert eagle, and I gently and quietly took it off de-cock mode. I carry loaded and de-cocked. My Eagle de-cock completely disengages the sear and trigger much better than a traditional safety IMHO.

Anyway, we told him we could talk and pray through his issues and concerns. He was repeatedly told no one needs to get hurt you or us. He finally zipped up his bag dropped it to his side. I made my weapon safe again and removed my hand from the grip of my gun. We actually started praying for the guy and gave him a hug in the end.

Turns out he was high as a kite and delusional. Thought people were chasing him into the church. He was just having a bad day, he was homeless, habitual drug user with emotional issues. He came to our church and he just wanted someone to listen to him in a safe place. Something triggered him to freak out, I still don't know what triggered him, he mumbled something about one of our church goers was with the people chasing him.

In the end cooler heads prevailed . I didn't need to draw my weapon nor defend myself and the situation was diffused. We didn't even involve law enforcement. Oddly enough he was arrested the very next night for trying to break into our church.

I learned more than one thing from that night.

De escalation is amazing when it works and it is always better than the alternative.

I was ready to defend myself and use deadly force if necessary.

I should have involved law enforcement because he brandished and threatened the use of a weapon. It may have been an airsoft or bb gun as he never pulled it out, looked real to me from about 8 feet away.

The de escalation training kicked in and the whole thing slowed down in my mind. It seemed like and eternity while it was happening but I was told that the whole thing including the prayer time was less than 4 or 5 minutes from start to finish

I also learned that this is the best case ending for this scenario. It could have gone south real quickly for people are very unstable and unpredictable.

I learned that sometimes things are not what they seem at the time..

I carry to defend myself and my family from threats, not strangers, not to be a cop or a hero. I'll run unless I have to stand and fight. I'll fight for the lives of my family and use whatever tool I need to as the situation warrants..

Hopefully the pistol never clears the leather and I come home safe every night. Hopefully at night the pistol never clears the leather and I wake up to live another day
Thanks for sharing. It worked out in the end for those involved without the use of force from a CCWer.
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  #36  
Old 12-04-2020, 10:55 AM
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Old 12-04-2020, 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by demisx View Post
A teethless man approaches you in vicious manner and your response is to turn around and run away?
Oh heck yeah. I got no quarrel with him. I'd turn and run back to my car or at the very least create distance. The only reason to close distance in a confrontation is to attack. Anyone playing the defensive roll should be creating space between themselves and the attacker. That rule applies to any martial art.

OP, I wasn't in your shoes and won't judge. Glad you came through OK and I hope you never have to draw your weapon again.
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Old 12-04-2020, 1:08 PM
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You did what you thought was right and there were no negative consequences. Good work.
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Old 12-04-2020, 1:22 PM
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One historical example of someone dying from a punch is not much evidence. Even if so, what did the person do to make you believe that he was going to punch you?

If you think that you are justified in using lethal force every time you think someone might punch you, then I wish you good luck with the jury. A jury would have to be persuaded that you were reasonably in fear that the attacker was going to cause you death or serious bodily harm. Drawing the gun is of course different than firing the shot, but your statement that you drew the gun in case he tried to punch you indicates that you would have shot him if he had punched you.
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Old 12-04-2020, 1:39 PM
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