Calguns.net  

Home My iTrader Join the NRA Donate to CGSSA Sponsors CGN Google Search
CA Semiauto Ban(AW)ID Flowchart CA Handgun Ban ID Flowchart CA Shotgun Ban ID Flowchart
Go Back   Calguns.net > INTERESTS AND ACTIVITIES > Competition, Action Shooting And Training.
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read

Competition, Action Shooting And Training. Competition, Three gun, IPSC, IDPA , and Training discussion here.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 09-12-2012, 2:30 PM
RudyCakes's Avatar
RudyCakes RudyCakes is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Ventura, CA
Posts: 524
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default Civilian carbine classes: Bullet-button?

I've heard conflicting view points on this.
Am I really expected to run a carbine course with the bullet-button in CA?
This is kind of a sensitive subject so a simple or will be sufficient.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 09-12-2012, 2:38 PM
SuperSet SuperSet is offline
Vendor/Retailer
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: OC/DC
Posts: 9,048
iTrader: 41 / 100%
Default

Have you thought about running featureless?
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 09-12-2012, 2:41 PM
RazzB7's Avatar
RazzB7 RazzB7 is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Sandy Eggo
Posts: 3,419
iTrader: 13 / 100%
Default

There's not much to be confused about. Shooting in competitions or classes does not magically suspend the law of the land, regardless of how ridiculous that law is.

As the above poster says, the only way around the bullet button is to run featureless. The benefit to that is you'll be able to use those regular-capacity magazines you've had since before 2000, instead of the government mandated reduced-capacity magazines.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Conan the Barbarian
Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrsRazz View Post
I don't wish to be known as a set of tits behind a gun.

Last edited by RazzB7; 09-12-2012 at 2:46 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 09-12-2012, 2:41 PM
RudyCakes's Avatar
RudyCakes RudyCakes is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Ventura, CA
Posts: 524
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperSet View Post
Have you thought about running featureless?
I hadn't considered it yet. I do have a KelTec SU-16 and a 1991 stamped 30 round mag. So thats doable.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 09-12-2012, 2:41 PM
AAShooter's Avatar
AAShooter AAShooter is offline
CGN/CGSSA Contributor
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 7,189
iTrader: 25 / 100%
Default

It depends on who's expectations you want to consider. In the eyes of the penal code, yes unless you are a special case.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 09-12-2012, 2:42 PM
AAShooter's Avatar
AAShooter AAShooter is offline
CGN/CGSSA Contributor
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 7,189
iTrader: 25 / 100%
Default

Take your class out of state.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 09-12-2012, 2:52 PM
SA227driver's Avatar
SA227driver SA227driver is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Free State of Arizona
Posts: 1,373
iTrader: 64 / 100%
Default

At the training school where I do all my classes my instructor has the philosophy of "you train with what you have". If you run a " featured" rifle with a BB then you need to be able to manipulate that rifle in a defensive scenario. We had guys with featured and featureless rifles and our instructor does not advocate breaking the law, no matter how dumb they are. If you plan to run a "evil features" rifle in Cali with a BB then you need to learn how to properly manipulate the rifle under stressful/defensive scenarios. Those of us running featured rifles in the Tac Carbine class have gotten pretty good with our BBs. It takes practice. I prefer the Ultimate Bullet Button Tools (http:/ubbt.net)
__________________
NRA, CGF, GSSF, SAF member
Certified Glock Armorer 2011, 2016

"Praise be to the LORD my Rock, who trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle. -Psalm 144:1
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 09-12-2012, 2:53 PM
ZombieTactics's Avatar
ZombieTactics ZombieTactics is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Roseville area, or wherever they pay my confiscatory rates for things only I know how to do (lol)
Posts: 3,691
iTrader: 3 / 100%
Default

My take:
  • Do both in-state and out-of-state training if you can afford it.
  • If not, consider going featureless. Seriously ... works just fine for just about any civilian application.
  • Consider using Thordson's Ultimate Bullet-Button tool and Ultimate Bilateral Magazine Lock.
  • Practice a lot, lol.
  • Some companies, like Gray Ops, specialize in accommodating bullet-button equipped students.
__________________
|

I don't pretend to be an "authority." I'm just a guy who trains a lot, shoots a lot and has a perspective.

Check the ZombieTactics Channel on YouTube for all sorts of gun-related goodness CLICK HERE
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 09-12-2012, 4:31 PM
RudyCakes's Avatar
RudyCakes RudyCakes is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Ventura, CA
Posts: 524
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SA227driver View Post
At the training school where I do all my classes my instructor has the philosophy of "you train with what you have". If you run a " featured" rifle with a BB then you need to be able to manipulate that rifle in a defensive scenario. We had guys with featured and featureless rifles and our instructor does not advocate breaking the law, no matter how dumb they are. If you plan to run a "evil features" rifle in Cali with a BB then you need to learn how to properly manipulate the rifle under stressful/defensive scenarios. Those of us running featured rifles in the Tac Carbine class have gotten pretty good with our BBs. It takes practice. I prefer the Ultimate Bullet Button Tools (http:/ubbt.net)
Thanks.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 09-12-2012, 4:31 PM
RudyCakes's Avatar
RudyCakes RudyCakes is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Ventura, CA
Posts: 524
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZombieTactics View Post
My take:
  • Do both in-state and out-of-state training if you can afford it.
  • If not, consider going featureless. Seriously ... works just fine for just about any civilian application.
  • Consider using Thordson's Ultimate Bullet-Button tool and Ultimate Bilateral Magazine Lock.
  • Practice a lot, lol.
  • Some companies, like Gray Ops, specialize in accommodating bullet-button equipped students.
Thanks.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 09-12-2012, 4:33 PM
SuperSet SuperSet is offline
Vendor/Retailer
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: OC/DC
Posts: 9,048
iTrader: 41 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RudyCakes View Post
I hadn't considered it yet. I do have a KelTec SU-16 and a 1991 stamped 30 round mag. So thats doable.
You can also build an AR in the featureless configuration.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 09-12-2012, 4:46 PM
RudyCakes's Avatar
RudyCakes RudyCakes is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Ventura, CA
Posts: 524
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperSet View Post
You can also build an AR in the featureless configuration.
Yes, thank you. I am looking into that as well. Unfortunately, all of my uppers have birdcages on them. I have several stripped lowers so my next build will be a featureless. I've only got one pre-ban 30 rounder, so I still probably wouldn't do well in the class.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 09-12-2012, 4:49 PM
SuperSet SuperSet is offline
Vendor/Retailer
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: OC/DC
Posts: 9,048
iTrader: 41 / 100%
Default

If you dont have high caps, you can borrow others while in the class. It's legal to do so.
You can still run your bullet button config but based on my experience, it is sub optimal.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 09-12-2012, 4:54 PM
Atekhed's Avatar
Atekhed Atekhed is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Bay Area
Posts: 577
iTrader: 17 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RudyCakes View Post
I've only got one pre-ban 30 rounder, so I still probably wouldn't do well in the class.
While the BB is more of a hinderance/detriment to training, 10 round magazines are not as much. You'll get more practice reloading if nothing else which isn't all bad. Just bring more 10 round mags to the course loaded and ready to go to keep things moving.

Also you might find that some of the other students may loan you 20/30 rounders (as long as your rifle is compliant) to use in the course.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 09-18-2012, 8:04 AM
Gray Ops 1*'s Avatar
Gray Ops 1* Gray Ops 1* is offline
Premier Firearms Trainers
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: San Joaquin County, California, USA
Posts: 694
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

We enjoy teaching those willing to learn how to use their rifles within the limits of our current statutes...Don't let your rifles configuration keep you off the range or from training.

http://www.gofast1.com/bulletbuttons.php
__________________
Gordon -
HONOR ~ Is a way of Life
www.gofast1.com
"Some situations you may be faced with in life are not black and white. Falling somewhere in between, in the 'Gray' areas."
Our mission is to prepare you for those occasions.
"We do not rise to the level of our expectations. We fall to the level of our training."

Speed is fine but Accuracy is Final
Slow = Smooth & Smooth = Fast, then Slow = Fast
Only Hits Count!
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 09-18-2012, 8:11 AM
slam128's Avatar
slam128 slam128 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: N. Los Angeles/ SGV
Posts: 125
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Yes! It sucks big time and you'll need to change your mag out after every ten rounds. I'd recommend putting your bb tool closer to your chest for quicker change outs. Bring at least 4 mags with you. At least you'll be proficient in you using your rifle in the state of CA.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 09-18-2012, 8:49 AM
9mmepiphany's Avatar
9mmepiphany 9mmepiphany is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: River City
Posts: 8,076
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Atekhed View Post
While the BB is more of a hinderance/detriment to training, 10 round magazines are not as much. You'll get more practice reloading if nothing else which isn't all bad. Just bring more 10 round mags to the course loaded and ready to go to keep things moving.
There is a lot to be said for this approach. Becoming better at the non-shooting skills (reloads, movement, transitions, getting in/out of positions) will make you a better overall shooter.
__________________
...because the journey is the worthier part...The Shepherd's Tale
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 09-18-2012, 9:02 AM
Gray Ops 1*'s Avatar
Gray Ops 1* Gray Ops 1* is offline
Premier Firearms Trainers
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: San Joaquin County, California, USA
Posts: 694
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 9mmepiphany View Post
There is a lot to be said for this approach. Becoming better at the non-shooting skills (reloads, movement, transitions, getting in/out of positions) will make you a better overall shooter.
Becoming one with your firearm platform keeps your focus on the objective with less distractions to keep things up and running.

"When the time to perform arrives, the time to prepare has past"
__________________
Gordon -
HONOR ~ Is a way of Life
www.gofast1.com
"Some situations you may be faced with in life are not black and white. Falling somewhere in between, in the 'Gray' areas."
Our mission is to prepare you for those occasions.
"We do not rise to the level of our expectations. We fall to the level of our training."

Speed is fine but Accuracy is Final
Slow = Smooth & Smooth = Fast, then Slow = Fast
Only Hits Count!
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 09-26-2012, 7:51 PM
drick drick is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 83
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gray Ops 1* View Post
We enjoy teaching those willing to learn how to use their rifles within the limits of our current statutes...Don't let your rifles configuration keep you off the range or from training.

http://www.gofast1.com/bulletbuttons.php
Do you have any more rifle classes for 2012 scheduled?
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 09-27-2012, 7:26 AM
Gray Ops 1*'s Avatar
Gray Ops 1* Gray Ops 1* is offline
Premier Firearms Trainers
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: San Joaquin County, California, USA
Posts: 694
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by drick View Post
Do you have any more rifle classes for 2012 scheduled?
Thanks for checking, we do not have any additional classes scheduled for 2012.

We are currently working on our 2013 schedule which I hope to have completed and posted to our web page mid October. With the demand for our Fundamental & Transitional Carbine Courses next year we'll be adding a few more to fill the need.

If you have any additional questions, please, don't hesitate to ask.
__________________
Gordon -
HONOR ~ Is a way of Life
www.gofast1.com
"Some situations you may be faced with in life are not black and white. Falling somewhere in between, in the 'Gray' areas."
Our mission is to prepare you for those occasions.
"We do not rise to the level of our expectations. We fall to the level of our training."

Speed is fine but Accuracy is Final
Slow = Smooth & Smooth = Fast, then Slow = Fast
Only Hits Count!
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 09-27-2012, 6:44 PM
D-Man's Avatar
D-Man D-Man is offline
Vendor/Retailer
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 783
iTrader: 3 / 100%
Default

We have a carbine class scheduled for November. I am the instructor that SA227driver is talking about. PM me if interested on the class details or read about the class listing in training section.
__________________
Darren

http://www.5arrowstactical.com/
Follow us on Twitter here. YouTube channel available here. Like us on Facebook here. and on Instagram here.
CA DOJ Instructor, NRA Instructor, Multi-State CCW Instructor
UT / FL / VA / OR / AZ CCW Instructor
Semper Fidelis
Ps 144:1
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 09-28-2012, 2:08 AM
drick drick is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 83
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Man View Post
We have a carbine class scheduled for November. I am the instructor that SA227driver is talking about. PM me if interested on the class details or read about the class listing in training section.
looks like you are in SoCal, i need a NorCal class.

Thanks anyways!
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 09-28-2012, 7:19 AM
D-Man's Avatar
D-Man D-Man is offline
Vendor/Retailer
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 783
iTrader: 3 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by drick View Post
looks like you are in SoCal, i need a NorCal class.

Thanks anyways!
If you are ever down this way we would love to have you! Sorry it didn't work out this time.
__________________
Darren

http://www.5arrowstactical.com/
Follow us on Twitter here. YouTube channel available here. Like us on Facebook here. and on Instagram here.
CA DOJ Instructor, NRA Instructor, Multi-State CCW Instructor
UT / FL / VA / OR / AZ CCW Instructor
Semper Fidelis
Ps 144:1
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 09-28-2012, 4:47 PM
LCU1670's Avatar
LCU1670 LCU1670 is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 2,868
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Smile Front Sight

Train as you fight in-state, go to FS to practice without those features and improve overall technique.
__________________
Waterborne!

Former: Knight of Front Sight &
Gold Star Member
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 11-21-2012, 3:34 PM
Gray Ops 1*'s Avatar
Gray Ops 1* Gray Ops 1* is offline
Premier Firearms Trainers
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: San Joaquin County, California, USA
Posts: 694
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default Gray Ops Firearms Specialty Training 2013 Training Schedule4 (Northern Ca)

We now have our 2013 Schedule Posted thought I'd share it here.

Gray Ops has a unique firearms training philosophy that stands out among all firearms training companies. Our instructors are passionate about making sure every student achieves the required knowledge, skills, and ability to control their immediate surroundings with the use of a firearm. Our objective is for you to obtain or sharpen your already acquired “Skill at Arm’s” and other personal defense skills.

Our Combo Handgun Courses now meet Sacramento County's CCW Training Requirements!

With the high demand for our Fund/Inter HG & Fund/Trans Carbine classes we've added more classes for 2013 in the hopes to meet and fill your needs. We've also added a new Handgun Skill Builder Course to fill the gap between Intermediate & Advanced. We should have something to fit everyone's needs. If you don't see it ask and we can make it happen! Other training opportunities include Private Lessons, Semi-Private/Small Group Lessons, and if you have a Group of 5+ we can customize training to fit your requirements.

January
12 - Fundamental Handgun (Slots Remaining 6)
13 - Intermediate Handgun (Slots Remaining 6)

February 2013
2 - Fundamental Carbine (Slots Remaining 10)
3 - Transitional Carbine (Slots Remaining 10)
16 - Defensive Shotgun (Slots Remaining 12)

March 2013
2 - Fundamental Handgun (Slots Remaining 12)
3 - Intermediate Handgun (Slots Remaining 12)
16-17 Handgun Skill Builder (Slots Remaining 10) New for 2013!
23-24 Precision Rifle (Slots Remaining 12)

April 2013
6 - Fundamental Carbine (Slots Remaining 11)
7 - Transitional Carbine (Slots Remaining 11)
13 - Women's Only Handgun (Slots Remaining 12)
20-21 Carbine Skill Builder (Slots Remaining 12)

May 2013
4 - Fundamental Handgun (Slots Remaining 11)
5 - Intermediate Handgun (Slots Remaining 10)

June 2013
1 - Fundamental Carbine (Slots Remaining 11)
2 - Transitional Carbine (Slots Remaining 11)
29-30 Advanced Carbine (Slots Remaining 12)

July 2013
6 - Fundamental Handgun (Slots Remaining 12)
7 - Intermediate Handgun (Slots Remaining 12)
13-14 Advanced Handgun (Slots Remaining 12)

August 2013
3 - Defensive Shotgun (Slots Remaining 12)
10 - Fundamental Carbine (Slots Remaining 12)
11 - Transitional Carbine (Slots Remaining 12)
24-25 Handgun Skill Builder (Slots Remaining 12) New for 2013!

September 2013
7 - Fundamental Handgun (Slots Remaining 12)
8 - Intermediate Handgun (Slots Remaining 12)
15 - Women's Only Handgun (Slots Remaining 12)
21-22 Advanced Handgun

October 2013
5 - Fundamental Carbine (Slots Remaining 12)
6 - Transitional Carbine (Slots Remaining 12)
19-20 Carbine Skill Builder (Slots Remaining 12)

November 2013
2 - Fundamental Handgun (Slots Remaining 12)
3 - Intermediate Handgun (Slots Remaining 12)
16-17 Advanced Carbine (Slots Remaining 12)

Our goal is for you to be competent, confident, and comfortable with the weapon of your choice. We have an outstanding success rate due to our willingness to spend the time necessary for you to achieve a level where you are safe and skilled. Gray Ops stresses a personal - but no nonsense – approach. Students learn not only the mechanics of firearm safety and use but the responsibilities gun ownership/use requires. We offer small classes, with a minimum of a 1 to 5 instructor/student ratio to provide the most of our experience. You will not get lost in a crowd.

For additional course details visit our web site www.gofast1.com
Class Schedule is subject to change without notice, additional classes will most likely be added as we nail down the dates.
Thanks for all the support in 2012 we at Gray Ops are here for our students when ever the need arises.
We are looking forward to seeing you at one of the classes in 2013!
__________________
Gordon -
HONOR ~ Is a way of Life
www.gofast1.com
"Some situations you may be faced with in life are not black and white. Falling somewhere in between, in the 'Gray' areas."
Our mission is to prepare you for those occasions.
"We do not rise to the level of our expectations. We fall to the level of our training."

Speed is fine but Accuracy is Final
Slow = Smooth & Smooth = Fast, then Slow = Fast
Only Hits Count!
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 11-21-2012, 8:44 PM
PhoenixTacticalSolutions's Avatar
PhoenixTacticalSolutions PhoenixTacticalSolutions is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,005
iTrader: 4 / 100%
Default

The following video is of our Rifle 1 class on 11/17...there were 5 rifles with bullet buttons (1 of which was an AK), one featureless and a Mini 14:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MT2oqwb3v70

The gentleman running the AK (which has a challenging bullet button) did a great job with emergency reloads using a screwdriver.
__________________
"Find out what works for you...and evolve."
"It's not how fast you shoot. It's how you shoot fast."
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 11-21-2012, 9:22 PM
Stan08's Avatar
Stan08 Stan08 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 1,206
iTrader: 33 / 100%
Default


__________________
Please visit my firearms training website at http://www.stcrispian.com

Last edited by Stan08; 11-21-2012 at 9:26 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 11-22-2012, 5:38 AM
Gray Ops 1*'s Avatar
Gray Ops 1* Gray Ops 1* is offline
Premier Firearms Trainers
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: San Joaquin County, California, USA
Posts: 694
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Happy Thanksgiving EVERYONE!

__________________
Gordon -
HONOR ~ Is a way of Life
www.gofast1.com
"Some situations you may be faced with in life are not black and white. Falling somewhere in between, in the 'Gray' areas."
Our mission is to prepare you for those occasions.
"We do not rise to the level of our expectations. We fall to the level of our training."

Speed is fine but Accuracy is Final
Slow = Smooth & Smooth = Fast, then Slow = Fast
Only Hits Count!
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 12-02-2012, 5:56 PM
enamoro enamoro is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 63
iTrader: 3 / 100%
Default

For anyone that's attended carbine courses in California with out of state instructors (e.g. Costa, etc.), do the instructors configure their carbines in accordance with California laws? Is there something in the law that excludes them from complying?

Thanks for any help.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 12-02-2012, 6:01 PM
Claybone's Avatar
Claybone Claybone is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 178
iTrader: 4 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 9mmepiphany View Post
There is a lot to be said for this approach. Becoming better at the non-shooting skills (reloads, movement, transitions, getting in/out of positions) will make you a better overall shooter.
X2 TO THAT. THE END RESULT A SHOOTER WITH BETTER SITUATIONAL AWARENESS.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 1:12 PM.




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Proudly hosted by GeoVario the Premier 2A host.
Calguns.net, the 'Calguns' name and all associated variants and logos are ® Trademark and © Copyright 2002-2021, Calguns.net an Incorporated Company All Rights Reserved.
All opinions, statements and remarks made by Calguns.net on this web site and elsewhere are solely attributable to Calguns.net.



Seams2SewBySusy