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Survival and Preparations Long and short term survival and 'prepping'.

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  #681  
Old 07-28-2017, 1:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uparmor View Post
Back in the day i could buy 5 gal buckets full of 993 projectiles at the gs for 50 bucks.
Considering that you could sell a single 993/995 projectile today for at least $5, too bad you didn't keep some. Not sure how you lucked out, since 993 and 995 have never been released to the general public. That GS must not have known what they had.
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  #682  
Old 07-28-2017, 2:27 PM
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What is the current state of the art and should I be OK with SAPIs and backers when the mountain people come and raise hell in town?
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  #683  
Old 07-28-2017, 5:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Droppin Deuces View Post
What is the current state of the art and should I be OK with SAPIs and backers when the mountain people come and raise hell in town?
SAPIs are outdated at this point, though they will still work, and you would want to get them X-Rayed prior to use. It also depends on what threat you are expecting. If you need black tip protection, a multi-hit Level IV like the Midwest FM4 is a good choice. If thinner plates that will stop all 5.56 and most 7.62x39 (but not .308) are more your speed, the Midwest STX plates are still extremely nice.

Backers should be worn with all rifle plates, regardless of whether they are considered "stand alone."
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  #684  
Old 07-28-2017, 9:43 PM
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Originally Posted by d-r View Post
Considering that you could sell a single 993/995 projectile today for at least $5, too bad you didn't keep some. Not sure how you lucked out, since 993 and 995 have never been released to the general public. That GS must not have known what they had.
It gets worse.....

I bought 3 buckets, reloaded ammo and went plinking in the desert with my real german made hk91 that i sold.
The seller said it was mil pull downs that didnt meet spec.

Kicking self forever!
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  #685  
Old 07-28-2017, 10:54 PM
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man is that stuff really $1000 a plate? That's crazy.
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  #686  
Old 07-29-2017, 11:30 AM
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Originally Posted by osis32 View Post
man is that stuff really $1000 a plate? That's crazy.
Yes. But then, it is important to look at the specs:

Multi-hit level IV. Standard level IV is ONLY rated for a single round.

Exceptionally light/thin for type.

Good Company, with a good rep.

If you want the best plates available as a private citizen, these would be the top of the heap. And quality is never cheap.
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  #687  
Old 07-29-2017, 5:07 PM
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Originally Posted by d-r View Post
SAPIs are outdated at this point, though they will still work, and you would want to get them X-Rayed prior to use. It also depends on what threat you are expecting. If you need black tip protection, a multi-hit Level IV like the Midwest FM4 is a good choice. If thinner plates that will stop all 5.56 and most 7.62x39 (but not .308) are more your speed, the Midwest STX plates are still extremely nice.

Backers should be worn with all rifle plates, regardless of whether they are considered "stand alone."
Got it, thanks. So, assuming that the majority of mountain and hill people are working with bulk m193 up to M80 ball and mostly from a distance of 100m or greater, I should be OK with SAPI's?
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  #688  
Old 07-29-2017, 6:56 PM
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I get it d-r I was not trying to talk smack I'm just not used to seeing those kind of prices. my life isn't worth that much haha.
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  #689  
Old 07-30-2017, 9:46 AM
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I get it d-r I was not trying to talk smack I'm just not used to seeing those kind of prices. my life isn't worth that much haha.
Absolutely didn't think you were. The sticker shock is a big one. But yes, your life is worth that much.
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  #690  
Old 09-09-2017, 10:41 AM
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Originally Posted by d-r View Post
Whose left nut did you have to sell to get M993?
haha, it was only about the price of 100 rounds of 9mm HST, for just those two..

Now I do have some M995 and AP4 (heavier version of M995), and some 152gr tungsten .308 I'm working on next!
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  #691  
Old 09-09-2017, 10:43 AM
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Here was that Engarde vs .300 WM;



The beauty of PE plates. They stop high velocity but fall short of steel core ammo. This 2.5lb plate stops M193 :O
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  #692  
Old 09-14-2017, 12:38 PM
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The Firearms Blog has 2 guest posts on body armor today:

Choosing the right armor and Ceramic vs Steel

I don't think there's much different here from what's already in the thread, but maybe the all-in-1-place part would be useful.
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  #693  
Old 09-15-2017, 6:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Librarian View Post
The Firearms Blog has 2 guest posts on body armor today:

Choosing the right armor and Ceramic vs Steel

I don't think there's much different here from what's already in the thread, but maybe the all-in-1-place part would be useful.
Had high hopes for the article and dispersion of good armor knowledge....alas there are multiple errors. The first comment by "kjack" sums it up nicely. So, below is a copy& paste of his comment which were my exact thoughts as I read- glad he beat me to it.



I'd like to know more about a few parts of this.

>These plates (UHMWPE) are generally going to be the lightest and or thinnest level 3 plates available.

Last I checked, UHMWPE plates tend to be the thickest.

>A pure Polyethylene plate can be defeated by a single round of M193 or M855

I know M855 is a problem for UHMWPE plates, but I have never heard of M193 being a problem for them.

>Low-visibility/ concealment.
Steel can be thin, yet stop rifle threat rounds, hence its usefulness in
concealment scenarios. However, Ceramic/ Polyethylene technology has
reached a point where steel is obsolete for this role.

Concealment under what? I can conceal a hell of a lot under a coat. I can't conceal a .5" thick ceramic plate strapped to my chest under a loose shirt. Steel in this case would still have an advantage being that it's generally .2"-.25" thick.

>Spalling is a major concern for all steel armor

There is a group called Sierra 12 (I'm not going to be able to link it because my posts don't go through when I post links) that did some tests where they had ballistics gel blocks around a bare steel plate when shooting it. All but one round penetrated under 1" into the ballistics gelatin (which is comparable to what an airsoft gun will do and will not break skin in practice) and one round managed 3" of penetration (which is less than what is expected of the calibration BB and still might not break skin).

>Steel is a rigid and hard material, when a
bullet strikes it, the energy will “pass through” the steel and into
the chest of the wearer.

If the plate is struck at the
right place, depending on how strong your bones are, it may break your
sternum and puncture your heart.

What the hell are you talking about here and do you have any scientific basis for this claim? How is steel going to magically focus the energy on your bones in a way that could kill you while simultaneously not exceeding maximum backface deformation standards?
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  #694  
Old 09-16-2017, 7:38 AM
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Doc,

Is the largest reasoning for ICW ratings with plates to reduce back face deformation or is the soft armor actually expected to stop the bullet after being slowed by the plate (partial penetration, spall, etc)?

Is it to achieve the multi-hit rating?

I been using VS Special Threat plates (standalone) but recently picked up a set that is lighter and thinner than the Velocity with same threat protection but requires IIIA.

Wouldn't second guess putting soft armor behind the plate but curious as to why.
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  #695  
Old 09-19-2017, 6:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patriot_man View Post
Doc,

Is the largest reasoning for ICW ratings with plates to reduce back face deformation or is the soft armor actually expected to stop the bullet after being slowed by the plate (partial penetration, spall, etc)?

Is it to achieve the multi-hit rating?

I been using VS Special Threat plates (standalone) but recently picked up a set that is lighter and thinner than the Velocity with same threat protection but requires IIIA.

Wouldn't second guess putting soft armor behind the plate but curious as to why.
P_Man,

ICW plates are engineered with the assumption that the soft armor is part of the backing. It is nominally there to meet the BFD requirements (44mm in Roma Plastalina), but also to catch any backface spallation. Generally, rounds that are overmatch tend to fragment pretty heavily when impacting ceramic strike faces, so the soft armor has a reasonable chance of catching it.

As a general rule, I advocate wearing soft armor behind all hard armor, regardless of ICW or standalone.
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  #696  
Old 09-19-2017, 6:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DeliveryBoy View Post
Had high hopes for the article and dispersion of good armor knowledge....alas there are multiple errors. The first comment by "kjack" sums it up nicely. So, below is a copy& paste of his comment which were my exact thoughts as I read- glad he beat me to it.



I'd like to know more about a few parts of this.

>These plates (UHMWPE) are generally going to be the lightest and or thinnest level 3 plates available.

Last I checked, UHMWPE plates tend to be the thickest.

>A pure Polyethylene plate can be defeated by a single round of M193 or M855

I know M855 is a problem for UHMWPE plates, but I have never heard of M193 being a problem for them.

>Low-visibility/ concealment.
Steel can be thin, yet stop rifle threat rounds, hence its usefulness in
concealment scenarios. However, Ceramic/ Polyethylene technology has
reached a point where steel is obsolete for this role.

Concealment under what? I can conceal a hell of a lot under a coat. I can't conceal a .5" thick ceramic plate strapped to my chest under a loose shirt. Steel in this case would still have an advantage being that it's generally .2"-.25" thick.

>Spalling is a major concern for all steel armor

There is a group called Sierra 12 (I'm not going to be able to link it because my posts don't go through when I post links) that did some tests where they had ballistics gel blocks around a bare steel plate when shooting it. All but one round penetrated under 1" into the ballistics gelatin (which is comparable to what an airsoft gun will do and will not break skin in practice) and one round managed 3" of penetration (which is less than what is expected of the calibration BB and still might not break skin).

>Steel is a rigid and hard material, when a
bullet strikes it, the energy will “pass through” the steel and into
the chest of the wearer.

If the plate is struck at the
right place, depending on how strong your bones are, it may break your
sternum and puncture your heart.

What the hell are you talking about here and do you have any scientific basis for this claim? How is steel going to magically focus the energy on your bones in a way that could kill you while simultaneously not exceeding maximum backface deformation standards?
The whole post was, sadly, facepalm-worthy. The comments are examples of third-hand "knowledge" and hearsay.

UHMWPE are never going to be the thinnest plates. They will always be thickest for equivalent protection.
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  #697  
Old 09-19-2017, 9:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by d-r View Post
The whole post was, sadly, facepalm-worthy. The comments are examples of third-hand "knowledge" and hearsay.

UHMWPE are never going to be the thinnest plates. They will always be thickest for equivalent protection.
+1. Typically UHMWPE plate can stop high velocity threats (m193), but will fall short when you mix steel into the round (m855), at least from my testing..
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  #698  
Old 09-20-2017, 11:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buffman View Post
+1. Typically UHMWPE plate can stop high velocity threats (m193), but will fall short when you mix steel into the round (m855), at least from my testing..
From my tests, the mechanism of action for stopping the round is frictive braking, and because M193 is compressible, it is able to be stopped. M855, because the tip/core is steel, and non-compressible, is able to penetrate.
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  #699  
Old 09-27-2017, 6:29 AM
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hey all. i have 10x12 plates and have DR's spall guards and backers. i have a carrier that i like, forget which one now, but the 10x12 pockets are just a bit too snug to accept the plates w/ the spall guards. i have another carrier that will take 11x14 plates, but it doesn't have any way to 'secure' the plates up in the pocket, so they sit at the bottom and they are too low.

what i'm looking for, is advice on a carrier that will fit well on a smaller guy (5'9", 155 lbs) and will accept 11x14 plates (with a strap to secure the plates in a good position).

thanks!
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  #700  
Old 09-27-2017, 8:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dx2 View Post
hey all. i have 10x12 plates and have DR's spall guards and backers. i have a carrier that i like, forget which one now, but the 10x12 pockets are just a bit too snug to accept the plates w/ the spall guards. i have another carrier that will take 11x14 plates, but it doesn't have any way to 'secure' the plates up in the pocket, so they sit at the bottom and they are too low.

what i'm looking for, is advice on a carrier that will fit well on a smaller guy (5'9", 155 lbs) and will accept 11x14 plates (with a strap to secure the plates in a good position).

thanks!
Velocity Systems Lightweight Plate Carrier in L/XL with small/medium cummerbund. Excellent PC.
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  #701  
Old 09-27-2017, 9:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by d-r View Post
Velocity Systems Lightweight Plate Carrier in L/XL with small/medium cummerbund. Excellent PC.
DR, i spoke w/ you about this when i got my gear from you. i do have the LPC but i can only find it in M w/ M cummerbund, never did find one in L and M cummerbund.

i will look around again and check out the other you mentioned in the email.

thanks again.
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  #702  
Old 09-27-2017, 1:51 PM
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Originally Posted by dx2 View Post
DR, i spoke w/ you about this when i got my gear from you. i do have the LPC but i can only find it in M w/ M cummerbund, never did find one in L and M cummerbund.

i will look around again and check out the other you mentioned in the email.

thanks again.
The SKD PIG plate carrier is also a rig that I highly recommend (excellent plate retention, separate plate/backer compartments). In addition, I will be acquiring and reviewing the Appalachian Training plate carrier this winter, and it may prove to be another viable option.
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  #703  
Old 10-10-2017, 8:10 AM
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I went a little overboard with this demo:


Last edited by Buffman; 10-14-2017 at 7:35 PM..
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  #704  
Old 11-23-2017, 10:10 PM
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AR500 Armor Level IV: D

Last edited by Buffman; 11-23-2017 at 10:23 PM..
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  #705  
Old 11-25-2017, 4:45 PM
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Hi All,
New to body armor. I don't have too much to spend but I figure it would be good to have something. Can I get some advice on what type of armor to use? Mainly for HD. I most likely will not be running courses or do to much training with this gear on. I like this because I can have armor, handgun, and spare mags available just by slipping on this carrier. I am not sure what type of armor to get since there are so many options available ranging from level, weight, shape, and cuts. Is going lightweight with the shooters cuts worth the extra $ if I will not be using this very often?

https://www.ar500armor.com/promotion...r-loadout.html

Last edited by khiemp; 11-25-2017 at 4:48 PM..
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  #706  
Old 11-26-2017, 4:16 PM
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Thank you d-r and buffman for your knowledgeable insight. Been racking my brain on this thread topic. With so many mfg. (LBT, PIG, BEEZ, etc.) Sorry I'm still learning I don't know them all.

Is there kind of a hierarchy of what's the best in quality? I like the idea of hardplate with a soft armor backing.
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  #707  
Old 12-03-2017, 6:32 PM
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Originally Posted by eric90503 View Post
Thank you d-r and buffman for your knowledgeable insight. Been racking my brain on this thread topic. With so many mfg. (LBT, PIG, BEEZ, etc.) Sorry I'm still learning I don't know them all.

Is there kind of a hierarchy of what's the best in quality? I like the idea of hardplate with a soft armor backing.
Subjective since NIJ standards are considered minimums. Find a plate that meets your threat profile, and budget. You can spend ungodly amounts of $$ on armor. IMO if you want a level IV and it's on the NIJ 06 certified list, pick the one that matches your budget and intended use. Steel has it's place in training and ultra budget area, but it's heavy, and people are concerned about high velocity penetration. PE plates are super lightweight, but can't stop M855 rounds until about 200 yards.
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  #708  
Old 12-04-2017, 11:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buffman View Post
Subjective since NIJ standards are considered minimums. Find a plate that meets your threat profile, and budget. You can spend ungodly amounts of $$ on armor. IMO if you want a level IV and it's on the NIJ 06 certified list, pick the one that matches your budget and intended use. Steel has it's place in training and ultra budget area, but it's heavy, and people are concerned about high velocity penetration. PE plates are super lightweight, but can't stop M855 rounds until about 200 yards.
I should probably look into a carrier first? I'm thinking III or IV, budget is what ever the lightest is out there. A whole lot of good your bank account will do if your done. I don't understand when people are trying to save money with AR500 only to gas out if they really needed to move.

So, if you had to recommend a LVL III or IV armor with carrier, that was the lightest and with unlimited budget, what would it be? Nice videos btw
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  #709  
Old 12-05-2017, 10:35 AM
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AR500 Armor #1078 PE Level III plate:
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  #710  
Old 12-05-2017, 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by eric90503 View Post
I should probably look into a carrier first? I'm thinking III or IV, budget is what ever the lightest is out there. A whole lot of good your bank account will do if your done. I don't understand when people are trying to save money with AR500 only to gas out if they really needed to move.

So, if you had to recommend a LVL III or IV armor with carrier, that was the lightest and with unlimited budget, what would it be? Nice videos btw
Dfndr Armor only for me.
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  #711  
Old 12-05-2017, 10:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eric90503 View Post
I should probably look into a carrier first? I'm thinking III or IV, budget is what ever the lightest is out there. A whole lot of good your bank account will do if your done. I don't understand when people are trying to save money with AR500 only to gas out if they really needed to move.

So, if you had to recommend a LVL III or IV armor with carrier, that was the lightest and with unlimited budget, what would it be? Nice videos btw
I've only tested a few of the many manufacturers, but HESCO, and RMA make very nice Level IV models. I just tested AR500 Armor's Level III PE plate which is an RMA re-brand
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  #712  
Old 12-05-2017, 2:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Calico1404 View Post
Dfndr Armor only for me.
They sure do charge a LOT of money for their plates, considering only one of their Level III Esapi's is NIJ 06 certified. The rest are only tested in compliance with NIJ 04. They are very lightweight, but not sure what makes them worth the $$$
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  #713  
Old 12-11-2017, 9:54 AM
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I know d-r recommends midwest armor. From my own research those appear to be the top of the line accessible to civilians. I'm looking into picking up a set of their FM4 plates for my Plateminus V2 carrier.
I have a set of Spartan armor in my regular Plateminus, but contemplating some of the FM3 plates for it instead. Waiting to see if midwest has any sales coming up.
I also need to pick up some of d-r's plate backers and spall guards though. Any thoughts on the midwest armor, buff?

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  #714  
Old 12-12-2017, 1:04 PM
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I have never tested them, but I don't believe they manufacture their own Armor. I believe LTC and Hesco does, but that could only be a few models. Those two are very trusted brands..
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  #715  
Old 12-17-2017, 7:45 PM
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Ar500 has their new Testudo Gen 2 carrier on sale for $175 with level 3 steel plates. For an additional $99 you can upgrade that to level 4 ceramic.

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The Constitution shall never be construed to authorize Congress to prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms. -- Samuel Adams, Debates and Proceedings in the Convention of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, 86-87 (Pearce and Hale, eds., Boston, 1850)
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Old 12-17-2017, 7:49 PM
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AR500 Armor #1078 PE Level III plate:
If you're going to get these new lightweight plates I'd go with a different vendor that has the ones that will stop M855.

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Oppressors can tyrannize only when they achieve a standing army, an enslaved press, and a disarmed populace. -- James Madison

The Constitution shall never be construed to authorize Congress to prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms. -- Samuel Adams, Debates and Proceedings in the Convention of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, 86-87 (Pearce and Hale, eds., Boston, 1850)
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Old 12-17-2017, 7:50 PM
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I should probably look into a carrier first? I'm thinking III or IV, budget is what ever the lightest is out there. A whole lot of good your bank account will do if your done. I don't understand when people are trying to save money with AR500 only to gas out if they really needed to move.

So, if you had to recommend a LVL III or IV armor with carrier, that was the lightest and with unlimited budget, what would it be? Nice videos btw
http://dkxarmor.com/m12-series.php

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Oppressors can tyrannize only when they achieve a standing army, an enslaved press, and a disarmed populace. -- James Madison

The Constitution shall never be construed to authorize Congress to prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms. -- Samuel Adams, Debates and Proceedings in the Convention of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, 86-87 (Pearce and Hale, eds., Boston, 1850)
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Old 12-17-2017, 8:01 PM
vg247 vg247 is offline
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If you're going to get these new lightweight plates I'd go with a different vendor that has the ones that will stop M855.

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Are there some good reputable vendors selling plates you’d recommend, JDay?
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Old 12-17-2017, 8:23 PM
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Are there some good reputable vendors selling plates you’d recommend, JDay?
See the link above. They're not cheap though. Otherwise AR500 has a great sale going on right now. You can add level 4 ceramic plates to their Veritas and Testudo Gen 2 carriers for $99 and be under $300 with shipping. If you get the Veritas add the cummerbund.

https://www.ar500armor.com/promotions-sales.html

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Oppressors can tyrannize only when they achieve a standing army, an enslaved press, and a disarmed populace. -- James Madison

The Constitution shall never be construed to authorize Congress to prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms. -- Samuel Adams, Debates and Proceedings in the Convention of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, 86-87 (Pearce and Hale, eds., Boston, 1850)
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Old 12-17-2017, 9:01 PM
vg247 vg247 is offline
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Originally Posted by JDay View Post
See the link above. They're not cheap though. Otherwise AR500 has a great sale going on right now. You can add level 4 ceramic plates to their Veritas and Testudo Gen 2 carriers for $99 and be under $300 with shipping. If you get the Veritas add the cummerbund.

https://www.ar500armor.com/promotions-sales.html

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Thanks very much as always JDay- I’m going to go with a Crye Precision JPC, my specifications are to get plates which stop the M855 which are lightweight, deciding on whether to get side plate protection as well.
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