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2nd Amend. Litigation Updates & Legal Discussion Discuss California 2A related litigation and legal topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #2161  
Old 10-30-2017, 4:47 PM
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9-12mo is my guess as well

Right now I'm holding off on all off roster purchase no matter how badly I want them. If we don't get anything by March 2018 I'll buy a few things.

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Originally Posted by Paladin View Post
Orals were back in March. My guess is 9 months to a year and a half after that is when the 3-judge panel will most likely release its decision.
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  #2162  
Old 11-07-2017, 4:08 PM
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I really can't believe how long that these cases take to flush out. If it were taxes that you owed the Fed you would be in some pretty deep doo-doo for being late to pay, but since it's your freedoms, ya know...
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  #2163  
Old 11-07-2017, 5:48 PM
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There is no incentive for the government to rush to do anything. If the law was put on hold until it was shown to be Constitutional by ALL the courts, then you would see a much different response.
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  #2164  
Old 11-07-2017, 9:31 PM
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Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
There is no incentive for the government to rush to do anything. If the law was put on hold until it was shown to be Constitutional by ALL the courts, then you would see a much different response.
All you guys seem to think there is some kind of conspiracy to delay these cases. The fact is that the Ninth Circuit is the largest and the busiest circuit in the entire federal system. In each and every case, the judges read the entire record from below, many perform their own legal research. With a back log of cases years long, and with a statutory preference given to criminal cases, the civil cases lag behind. Moreover, in some cases, the law is suspended pending further proceedings, albeit rarely, and those cases proceed at the same pace as all the others.

Patience, grasshoppers.
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  #2165  
Old 11-07-2017, 9:33 PM
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The federal District Courts don't do anything in less than 8 months in California.
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  #2166  
Old 11-08-2017, 9:07 AM
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Originally Posted by TruOil View Post
All you guys seem to think there is some kind of conspiracy to delay these cases. The fact is that the Ninth Circuit is the largest and the busiest circuit in the entire federal system. In each and every case, the judges read the entire record from below, many perform their own legal research. With a back log of cases years long, and with a statutory preference given to criminal cases, the civil cases lag behind. Moreover, in some cases, the law is suspended pending further proceedings, albeit rarely, and those cases proceed at the same pace as all the others.

Patience, grasshoppers.
Curiously, the "travel ban" zipped right through the 9th circus
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  #2167  
Old 11-08-2017, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by TruOil View Post
All you guys seem to think there is some kind of conspiracy to delay these cases. The fact is that the Ninth Circuit is the largest and the busiest circuit in the entire federal system. In each and every case, the judges read the entire record from below, many perform their own legal research. With a back log of cases years long, and with a statutory preference given to criminal cases, the civil cases lag behind. Moreover, in some cases, the law is suspended pending further proceedings, albeit rarely, and those cases proceed at the same pace as all the others.

Patience, grasshoppers.

In my opinion all cases with abridgment of Rights at issue the law should be suspended until resolved.

Patience is not an option when it comes to government interference with our Rights.
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  #2168  
Old 11-08-2017, 4:26 PM
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Originally Posted by TruOil View Post
All you guys seem to think there is some kind of conspiracy to delay these cases.
...
Please don't quote me and make things up. No one said anything about a conspiracy except you. I said that there is no reason for them to quickly get it done. The law gets to be enforced, with rare exceptions, until they decide and it also delays any appeals and getting to the SC.

As shown, they can get things through if they want, which shows that they have no incentive to get this done. Don't try to imply other things.
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  #2169  
Old 11-09-2017, 7:53 AM
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Originally Posted by EM2 View Post
In my opinion all cases with abridgment of Rights at issue the law should be suspended until resolved.

Patience is not an option when it comes to government interference with our Rights.
This ^^^^^
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  #2170  
Old 11-14-2017, 8:10 AM
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So do you think the judges heard the case in March and wrote their decisions and are sitting on them, or do you think they heard the case, sat around for now going on 8 months and will whip something up later when they get around to it?

They cant possibly remember anything besides the gist of the case at this point.
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  #2171  
Old 11-14-2017, 9:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EM2 View Post
In my opinion all cases with abridgment of Rights at issue the law should be suspended until resolved.

Patience is not an option when it comes to government interference with our Rights.
True, but the rights are NOT abridged until the court determines they are, so, as we are waiting, our rights are technically intact because the court says so. That's the catch. A circular argument with no easy way around it.

It's like online shopping using overnight shipping. It's only "overnight" from the point the shipment is ready, so you end up with multiple days waiting for it. In the roster case, our item "hasn't shipped yet."
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  #2172  
Old 11-14-2017, 9:07 AM
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Originally Posted by AdamVIP View Post
They cant possibly remember anything besides the gist of the case at this point.
They have all the documents and they also wrote down anything from the orals they were interested in. Orals were only to ask questions and get clarifications anyway. The legal arguments are written down by each side.
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  #2173  
Old 11-14-2017, 9:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EM2 View Post
In my opinion all cases with abridgment of Rights at issue the law should be suspended until resolved.

Patience is not an option when it comes to government interference with our Rights.
Cute, but you're not thinking. Remember, all laws are presumed Constitutional, so until a court makes the determination, they are, by default, NOT infringing on your rights.

Plus, what happens when some idiot says every single law in existence infringes on his rights? In your nightmare system, we then suspend every law, and live in the Wild West as the judicial system is forced to iterate through every law on the books, taking centuries to resolve? Yeah, bad idea and then some.
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  #2174  
Old 11-14-2017, 11:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IVC View Post
They have all the documents and they also wrote down anything from the orals they were interested in. Orals were only to ask questions and get clarifications anyway. The legal arguments are written down by each side.
Orals are recorded. There is most likely a transcript of the oral arguments that can be referred to.
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  #2175  
Old 11-14-2017, 11:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IVC View Post
True, but the rights are NOT abridged until the court determines they are, so, as we are waiting, our rights are technically intact because the court says so. That's the catch. A circular argument with no easy way around it.

It's like online shopping using overnight shipping. It's only "overnight" from the point the shipment is ready, so you end up with multiple days waiting for it. In the roster case, our item "hasn't shipped yet."
Probably hasn't even had a shipping label prepared for it.
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  #2176  
Old 11-14-2017, 11:46 AM
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You are correct. However, there IS precedent for government NOT having a blanket presumption of constitutionality. One example that comes to mind is the Voting Rights Act - where States found to have a history or rights suppression had to get pre-approval from DOJ before making new laws affecting voting rights.
This is exactly what I would like to see for the relatively few States that continue to treat 2A rights as privileges. Politically, given that 40+ States already treat those rights appropriately, I would think it would be an easy (er) political lift.
Another from here in CA is the prison system, which was put under Federal receivership. I'd like to see the same kind of thing done to the gun unit at DOJ - which would help address the under the table regs, Rube Goldberg background check system designed to prevent instant approvals and require maximum human intervention (cost) and an organization dedicated to doing the Legislatures dirty work.
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  #2177  
Old 11-14-2017, 12:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IVC View Post
True, but the rights are NOT abridged until the court determines they are, so, as we are waiting, our rights are technically intact because the court says so. That's the catch. A circular argument with no easy way around it.

It's like online shopping using overnight shipping. It's only "overnight" from the point the shipment is ready, so you end up with multiple days waiting for it. In the roster case, our item "hasn't shipped yet."
That logic only works if you believe that the government gives us our Rights.
If you believe that Rights are inherent in being a Human and totally unrelated to government, than it is easy to understand that they have been abridged regardless of what the courts say.
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  #2178  
Old 11-14-2017, 12:49 PM
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It also only works if you assume that the politicians are ethical and honest, that they don't pass laws that they want to see enforced for decades and will pass more laws when those previous laws have been tossed out in court. Sadly, it is a bad assumption to believe that.

Take a look at the CA smog impact fee and how that was handled. It shows that the government did not care about what was right, just what they could get away with. They don't face the fear of jail for their theft of money and fraudulent acts. The same law was tossed in FL, but continued to be enforced in CA until years later it was tossed. Then they had a form that could be filled out to get a refund, but they did not send notice to those who they had collected the fee from.
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  #2179  
Old 11-14-2017, 5:56 PM
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Quote:
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Orals are recorded. There is most likely a transcript of the oral arguments that can be referred to.
Sure. What I meant was that the orals are more of a formality where judges clarify any issues they might personally have. Most of the case is decided based on references and legal arguments in briefs.
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  #2180  
Old 11-14-2017, 6:01 PM
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Quote:
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That logic only works if you believe that the government gives us our Rights.
If you believe that Rights are inherent in being a Human and totally unrelated to government, than it is easy to understand that they have been abridged regardless of what the courts say.
Regardless of how/when/where/why we have rights, when there is a disagreement with respect to what a right really means, that disagreement must be resolved. Remember, one side says "our rights are infringed," but the other side says "no, your rights are fine." Someone has to determine who is correct.

Until that determination is made, you cannot claim that our rights are infringed because you are still in the process of *determining* whether you're right or wrong. If/when our side wins, of course we will say "our rights HAVE BEEN infringed all this time," but it's a moot point since the courts will reverse the law at that time anyways.

However, if we lose, then the other side says: "see, we told you so. You were fine all along."
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  #2181  
Old 12-13-2017, 7:23 PM
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Q: Is our side putting all our eggs in the Pena basket, or are there other attacks (legal or political) on the roster that I don't know about?
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  #2182  
Old 12-13-2017, 10:36 PM
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Q: Is our side putting all our eggs in the Pena basket, or are there other attacks (legal or political) on the roster that I don't know about?
I’m sure you already know about NSSF vs State of California, does that count? It’s not attack on the roster as a whole, but elimination of the microstamping requirement would remove the most draconian aspect of the roster, and allow at least some new pistol models to to be introduced into the CA market.

I too am interested if there are any other irons in the fire on the roster as a whole, I’m not aware of any.
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  #2183  
Old 12-13-2017, 10:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paladin View Post
Q: Is our side putting all our eggs in the Pena basket, or are there other attacks (legal or political) on the roster that I don't know about?
There's NSSF V. State of California, but i think that one is just primarily going after Microstamping.
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  #2184  
Old 12-14-2017, 3:53 PM
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Hopefully this getting dragged out for what seems like forever shoots the liberals in the foot and we get a conservative replacement for Ginsberg in the meantime.
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  #2185  
Old 12-14-2017, 7:47 PM
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Prediction for 2018, Ginsberg meets her maker, Lucifer!
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  #2186  
Old 12-14-2017, 9:59 PM
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Thanks for the replies, guys.

Yeah, I guess we're ----ed until Trump/Pence can replace Kennedy or 1 of the 4 antis with another Scalia clone.

FWIW I saw an article that suggested Roy Moore losing the race for senator from AL may ensure that Kennedy steps down at the end of this term. Why? Because it increases the odds that Dems could win the Senate in Nov and stop any Trump SCOTUS pick from Jan 2019 until he leaves office in Jan 2021. Kennedy would not want that to happen. He knows how SCOTUS needs a full complement of justices to function optimally and 2 years of only 8 justices would be a disaster.
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  #2187  
Old 12-15-2017, 9:13 AM
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Thanks for the replies, guys.

FWIW I saw an article that suggested Roy Moore losing the race for senator from AL may ensure that Kennedy steps down at the end of this term. Why? Because it increases the odds that Dems could win the Senate in Nov and stop any Trump SCOTUS pick from Jan 2019 until he leaves office in Jan 2021. Kennedy would not want that to happen. He knows how SCOTUS needs a full complement of justices to function optimally and 2 years of only 8 justices would be a disaster.
Interesting spin. It is reasonable, but I would guess he would rather there be 8 than a conservative majority.
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Old 12-15-2017, 7:06 PM
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Interesting spin. It is reasonable, but I would guess he would rather there be 8 than a conservative majority.
IIRC, the article said Kennedy cares more about the caliber of the nominees than their ideology.

The article noted that Gorsuch clerked under Kennedy and that two of the top picks on Trump's "short list" also clerked for Kennedy.

Since Kennedy sees that Trump's "taste" in judges is similar to his taste in law clerks, the "spin"/theory may have some validity: Kennedy may not be opposed to Trump choosing his replacement in 2018 versus who knows in 2020.
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  #2189  
Old 12-16-2017, 8:02 AM
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IIRC, the article said Kennedy cares more about the caliber of the nominees than their ideology.

The article noted that Gorsuch clerked under Kennedy and that two of the top picks on Trump's "short list" also clerked for Kennedy.

Since Kennedy sees that Trump's "taste" in judges is similar to his taste in law clerks, the "spin"/theory may have some validity: Kennedy may not be opposed to Trump choosing his replacement in 2018 versus who knows in 2020.
It seems like good etiquette for a judge to allow their party to replace them. It's possible Kennedy may never see another Republican president in his life time. Ginsberg made this mistake not retiring when Obama was in office. I would think Kennedy doesn't want to make a similar mistake.
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  #2190  
Old 12-27-2017, 3:55 PM
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Just donated $100 to CGF to help the fight over the roster.
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  #2191  
Old 12-27-2017, 9:13 PM
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It seems like good etiquette for a judge to allow their party to replace them. It's possible Kennedy may never see another Republican president in his life time. Ginsberg made this mistake not retiring when Obama was in office. I would think Kennedy doesn't want to make a similar mistake.
But Ginsberg did not believe that Trump would win, which is demonstrated by her statement that she would leave the US if he won. So now she has to try and hold on in the hope that a libtard can retake the WH in 2020.

While Kennedy may be a Republican, that does not mean that he is a Trump fan or supporter. So the question is how he views Gorsuch's appointment and what promises would be needed to get him to retire. I would think that a very short list of proposed nominees might help.
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Old 01-05-2018, 6:53 PM
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any updates with this or is it still stalling in court?
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  #2193  
Old 01-05-2018, 7:26 PM
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Waiting for SCOTUS to consider the request. Follow along as SCOTUSblog - http://www.scotusblog.com/2018/01/pe...5/#more-265307

First conference was today.
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Old 01-05-2018, 7:42 PM
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Waiting for SCOTUS to consider the request.
Sorry if I'm horrible confused, but I thought we were waiting a decision from CA9?
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Old 01-05-2018, 10:05 PM
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Sorry if I'm horrible confused, but I thought we were waiting a decision from CA9?
Err, um, ah, yes, that's right.

I lost track ...
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Old 01-05-2018, 10:12 PM
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Err, um, ah, yes, that's right.

I lost track ...
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  #2197  
Old 01-05-2018, 10:26 PM
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It was just a momentary disconnection from the Collective.
You don't think that he holds all this info in his head by himself, do you?


He's OK now.
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Old 01-09-2018, 10:14 AM
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Bump with good vibes because I want one of those new p365s.
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Old 01-09-2018, 10:24 AM
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Bump with good vibes because I want one of those new p365s.
I just want a Colt .38 Super that doesn't cost me a 2nd mortage.
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Old 01-09-2018, 10:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Librarian View Post
Err, um, ah, yes, that's right.

I lost track ...
Someone forgot to give Librarian the latest firmware update

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