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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #1  
Old 09-20-2011, 5:34 PM
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Default If there was more training requirements/qualifications....

Do you think we could get more sheriffs/COP's or maybe even change the laws to shall issue? I was thinking about this the other day that yea I know the law states 16 hours but come on 16-hours is a joke, if they upped it to 80+hours of training and have the classes put on by the agency issuing the LTC permits they can increase revenue for the city/county and make sure the people are properly trained, say you cant pass the qual, then you dont get a LTC. Think about this too, the police academy is nearly 1000 hours, yes some is laws/classroom but a good portion is on firearms/tactics and the laws regarding shooting/use of force. I know there has been bills attempting to change it to "Shall" issue in the past but they have never touched the training requirements. I really think that you could convince the Sheriffs/COP'S to change there minds about LTC with so many agencies facing budget crisis.
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Old 09-20-2011, 5:46 PM
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80+ hours gtfo!
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Old 09-20-2011, 5:49 PM
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Originally Posted by G60 View Post
80+ hours gtfo!
So you wouldnt do it to get a LTC?
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Old 09-20-2011, 5:50 PM
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So you're basically suggesting that only people who can take the time for an 80+ hour course or the financial means to attend one should have a LTC?

What about the people who have threats against their lives? Are they suppose to wait for the time for a 2 week course, plus LTC application times?

Yeah we need to make it harder for a right that technically should be ours for free per the 2A!
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Old 09-20-2011, 5:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Shellshocker66 View Post
So you basically suggesting that only people who can take the time for an 80+ hour course or the financial means to attend one should have a LTC?

What about the people who have threats against their lives? Are they suppose to wait for the time for a 2 week course, plus LTC application times?

Yeah we need to make it harder for a right that technically should be ours for free per the 2A!
Most people cant get one now with threats against there lives, LAPD refused to issue to a woman whose husband threatened to kill her and had put her in the hospital, instead he placed a patrol car outside her house, the guy still snuck in and killed her. You guys arent seeing the picture here, the Sheriffs and COP'S have nothing to lose now by simply refusing to issue, you give them something they can gain by increased revenue and knowing that they issued to people who had been properly trained you take away all of there arguments, you can preach the 2A right argument til your blue in the face cuz it isnt getting anywhere and we have seen small gains, Im simply suggesting a new tactic that will shoot down all of their arguments
  #6  
Old 09-20-2011, 5:56 PM
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I won't need to come a supreme court carry decision next June or in June of 2013.

Imagine the cost in both $$ and time for us regular people. I can't afford to take 2 weeks off work every couple of years and go full time to a LTC course.

I know some counties accept community college administration of justice or similar courses as training, but not everyone has the convenience of going back to school for a semester to get a carry license.

No amount of training will get past the fact that some sheriffs simply don't think law abiding citizens should be armed at all.
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Old 09-20-2011, 6:03 PM
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I won't need to come a supreme court carry decision next June or in June of 2013.

Imagine the cost in both $$ and time for us regular people. I can't afford to take 2 weeks off work every couple of years and go full time to a LTC course.

I know some counties accept community college administration of justice or similar courses as training, but not everyone has the convenience of going back to school for a semester to get a carry license.

No amount of training will get past the fact that some sheriffs simply don't think law abiding citizens should be armed at all.
I never said anything about a recert, recerts can be cut down to 8 hours and if people can do a full PD academy on there own time in addition to working a full time job, no one said you have to take off work. If you dont want to do it you basically dont want it that bad, you pretty much want to sit around and have it handed to you well I would rather go out and try whatever tactics I can to get a LTC again. 80 hours to me is nothing.
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Old 09-20-2011, 6:03 PM
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A fundamental right shouldn't require 80 hours of training.

Plus the majority of no issue counties aren't that way because of a training requirement. They are that way because there is no political upside to issue, while there is downside if an LTCer gets themselves in the news and isn't in the right (as in the Sheriff might get replaced next election). Plus having no issue means law enforcement gets to keep their monopoly on public safety. What do monopolies do when the little guy tries to take just a bit of the action? Exactly

Claiming that the police are better trained is just an excuse not to issue, because it sounds better than saying the constitution is flawed by including the 2A. An 80 hour requirement isn't going to change any issue policies, but instead will only change the excuses given not to issue.

Last edited by stix213; 09-20-2011 at 6:09 PM..
  #9  
Old 09-20-2011, 6:06 PM
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I have one, and it was a ***** to go through 16 hours of BS, and it was mostly BS. I would kill myself if I had to go through 80+ hours. You are insane for even thinking such a thing.

When you get a LTC you will understand.
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Old 09-20-2011, 6:06 PM
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Originally Posted by G60 View Post
No amount of training will get past the fact that some sheriffs simply don't think law abiding citizens should be armed at all.
Couldn't have said it better!

Now as for your argument:

As for your revenue, the Sheriff's don't care about the extra monies going to training facilities for LTC's as it add no money to their coffers. Take my county for example, there are maybe a few training places for LTC's and they are spread out in time. So most would travel to Sacramento county for training. They could make money by going "shall issue". But even though the Sheriff has laid off half his deputies on force, plus several key department jobs, he has decided to fight in court the right to keep LTC the way he see's to do it. It's not what you know here, it's WHO you know so 80 plus hours would still not work in my county.

But if you feel you need 80 plus hours please feel free to go get it. I will take my 35 plus years of firearms experience and be happy with the minimum required to get a LTC.
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  #11  
Old 09-20-2011, 6:08 PM
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Originally Posted by stix213 View Post
A fundamental right shouldn't require 80 hours of training.

Plus the majority of no issue counties aren't that way because of a training requirement. They are that way because there is no political upside to issue, while there is downside if an LTCer gets themselves in the news and isn't in the right (as in the Sheriff might get replaced next election).
Actually I think it does, when the 2A was drafted it took 2 or 3 minutes to load the gun, nowadays you can put hundreds of rounds through a weapon in 2 or 3 minutes, quite frankly I dont want people running around with weapons they havent been trained on, yea there are a lot of people who have received some training, military and the like but there are a ton that have not and once again if you are too lazy to be properly trained you have no business carrying.
  #12  
Old 09-20-2011, 6:10 PM
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I honestly believe it has nothing to do with how much it costs or how much training it requires. Large metropolitan county Sheriffs are in league with Police Chiefs and legislators. They are not stupid, they wont admit it but they see the same studies and stats we do, they KNOW that civilians who carry concealed weapons affect criminal behavior and cause crime rates to fall. This does not help the most important bottom line for all of them, funding and money. If there is no crime then their is no money for new laws and crime fighting. I have personally seen Saldana, Sheriff Gore, and Police Chief Landsdowne glad handing and speaking in low tones at gatherings. There is a good ole boy club at work, and they wont give it up cause that means lost money.
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  #13  
Old 09-20-2011, 6:10 PM
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Guess how much training it took to get my Washington CPl...?

None. I filled out the damn form (one page) and got it a month later in the mail, and it only cost $65 bucks or so....

Anything more is an infrigment, and the actual license itself it pushing it. It is my right as an American to "keep and bear arms", what is so hard about that?

You statists never learn do you?
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  #14  
Old 09-20-2011, 6:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Tacobandit View Post
Actually I think it does, when the 2A was drafted it took 2 or 3 minutes to load the gun, nowadays you can put hundreds of rounds through a weapon in 2 or 3 minutes, quite frankly I dont want people running around with weapons they havent been trained on, yea there are a lot of people who have received some training, military and the like but there are a ton that have not and once again if you are too lazy to be properly trained you have no business carrying.
Did you take an 80 hour training course before exercising your 1A rights here? Come back after you've had proper training
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Old 09-20-2011, 6:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Shellshocker66 View Post
Couldn't have said it better!

Now as for your argument:

As for your revenue, the Sheriff's don't care about the extra monies going to training facilities for LTC's as it add no money to their coffers. Take my county for example, there are maybe a few training places for LTC's and they are spread out in time. So most would travel to Sacramento county for training. They could make money by going "shall issue". But even though the Sheriff has laid off half his deputies on force, plus several key department jobs, he has decided to fight in court the right to keep LTC the way he see's to do it. It's not what you know here, it's WHO you know so 80 plus hours would still not work in my county.

But if you feel you need 80 plus hours please feel free to go get it. I will take my 35 plus years of firearms experience and be happy with the minimum required to get a LTC.
I have over 1000+ hours of training, SWAT training, advanced weapons and tactics training and nearly a decade of PD experience, I am simply stating that the majority of people out there dont have the training and yet they whine its a fundamental right so there lazy A can do the bare minimum. And there are a ton of facilities that can be used, LAPD had 3 that can be used, sheriffs has probably half a dozen, most sheriffs departments have the necessary facilities to do it easily.
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Old 09-20-2011, 6:14 PM
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The problem is not the training. The issue is making getting a LTC depending on taking the training. Nobody keeps you from taking the training if you think you need it. If you don't take it and screw up, your fault and a consequence of a choice you made.
Should issueing an LTC be dependent on an elaborate training ... I don't think so, its a RIGHT in this country, but you also bear the responsibility for your actions when you excersise your RIGHT.

Pls excuse typos, am on phone right now
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Old 09-20-2011, 6:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Tacobandit View Post
Actually I think it does, when the 2A was drafted it took 2 or 3 minutes to load the gun, nowadays you can put hundreds of rounds through a weapon in 2 or 3 minutes, quite frankly I dont want people running around with weapons they havent been trained on, yea there are a lot of people who have received some training, military and the like but there are a ton that have not and once again if you are too lazy to be properly trained you have no business carrying.
ohh god......

I bet you believe in "common sense" gun laws too, huh?

Sorry you can't get a LTC where you live but you don't need to spit all over everyone else's freedoms because you chose to live where you do.
  #18  
Old 09-20-2011, 6:15 PM
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You do realize that the overwhelming majority of states out there have shall issue, with little or no training and their are almost no problems.

You oughta be advocating for more training for your fellow officers. There the ones who cant seem to hit what they aim at...
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Last edited by SanPedroShooter; 09-20-2011 at 6:20 PM..
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Old 09-20-2011, 6:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Tacobandit View Post
I have over 1000+ hours of training, SWAT training, advanced weapons and tactics training and nearly a decade of PD experience, I am simply stating that the majority of people out there dont have the training and yet they whine its a fundamental right so there lazy A can do the bare minimum. And there are a ton of facilities that can be used, LAPD had 3 that can be used, sheriffs has probably half a dozen, most sheriffs departments have the necessary facilities to do it easily.
Average LTC holder isn't going to be doing no knock raids using squad tactics, etc.
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Old 09-20-2011, 6:16 PM
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I think the real first step is to become very active in the political arena and help get a pro 2A sheriff elected.

People manage to get through the CADL courses and test that shouldn't be on the road. The same will happen with LTC (no matter how many hours of training they have).
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Old 09-20-2011, 6:18 PM
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You guys are missing the point, the 2A argument is hinged on how the supreme court will rule, considering how they have ruled in the past I will try other tactics and quite frankly I honestly think if you take this to politicians they will have no choice but to support it because it washes all of there arguments away, 80 hours of training is nothing and if you cant handle it you dont want a LTC that bad, its awesome that you didnt have to do anything in washington, thats awesome, but this isnt WA, its CA and the BS law here doesnt allow you to do that, I am suggesting a alternative that can work for now until the political climate here in CA changes.
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Old 09-20-2011, 6:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Tacobandit View Post
You guys are missing the point, the 2A argument is hinged on how the supreme court will rule, considering how they have ruled in the past I will try other tactics and quite frankly I honestly think if you take this to politicians they will have no choice but to support it because it washes all of there arguments away, 80 hours of training is nothing and if you cant handle it you dont want a LTC that bad, its awesome that you didnt have to do anything in washington, thats awesome, but this isnt WA, its CA and the BS law here doesnt allow you to do that, I am suggesting a alternative that can work for now until the political climate here in CA changes.
Put that way, maybe. And yes, I would love 80 hours of training, hell I would take POST again for fun.
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Old 09-20-2011, 6:20 PM
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ohh god......

I bet you believe in "common sense" gun laws too, huh?

Sorry you can't get a LTC where you live but you don't need to spit all over everyone else's freedoms because you chose to live where you do.
Wow are you always this juvenile, the political climate in CA is so messed up I am simply suggesting a tactic to help change it as they will have no arguments if a bill gets drafted changing it to shall issue and adding training requirements
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Old 09-20-2011, 6:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Tacobandit View Post
Actually I think it does, when the 2A was drafted it took 2 or 3 minutes to load the gun, nowadays you can put hundreds of rounds through a weapon in 2 or 3 minutes, quite frankly I dont want people running around with weapons they havent been trained on, yea there are a lot of people who have received some training, military and the like but there are a ton that have not and once again if you are too lazy to be properly trained you have no business carrying.
And.... they would all stand in a line and shoot each other.

As weapons have evolved, so have the techniques to use them.

Look at how well the 'properly trained' drivers are on the road. They have all met the minimum required training and passed the test.... AND they still can't drive worth a pile.
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Old 09-20-2011, 6:21 PM
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It sounds like you're trying to advocate an 80 hour training requirement, because you think anyone who doesn't take 80 hours of training is too irresponsible to handle a firearm. While at the same time trying to get everyone here in agreement by cloaking your advocacy as somehow able to convince issuing agencies to actually issue LTC's (there is zero evidence that any agency would change policy based on an increased training requirement by the way).

Is that about on point?

Last edited by stix213; 09-20-2011 at 6:24 PM..
  #26  
Old 09-20-2011, 6:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Tacobandit View Post
I have over 1000+ hours of training, SWAT training, advanced weapons and tactics training and nearly a decade of PD experience, I am simply stating that the majority of people out there dont have the training and yet they whine its a fundamental right so there lazy A can do the bare minimum. And there are a ton of facilities that can be used, LAPD had 3 that can be used, sheriffs has probably half a dozen, most sheriffs departments have the necessary facilities to do it easily.
So if your an LEO you don't need an LTC. And please with all your "experience" how many reckless LTC weapon usage problems you have seen?
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  #27  
Old 09-20-2011, 6:22 PM
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And.... they would all stand in a line and shoot each other.

As weapons have evolved, so have the techniques to use them.

Look at how well the 'properly trained' drivers are on the road. They have all met the minimum required training and passed the test.... AND they still can't drive worth a pile.
So basically in your own uneducated way you are siding with me, because you just stated the training for the CADL isnt good enough....amazing the crap you come up with
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Old 09-20-2011, 6:22 PM
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TacoBandit:
These are not cars or airplanes or anything else that we are talking about here.
These are guns, implements of defense of home, family, community, and country.
It is incorrect to suppose that by putting more burdens (such as 80 hours of training) on the RightToKeepandBearArms,
we would be able to entreat our masters (who, by the way, are supposed to be our servants) to allow us
to freely use our own weapons for our own defense.
Over and over in history this same fight has occurred, and the way to be "entrusted" with arms
by our betters is to tell them to get the hell out of our way.
Do not forget this. Ever.
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  #29  
Old 09-20-2011, 6:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Tacobandit View Post
I have over 1000+ hours of training, SWAT training, advanced weapons and tactics training and nearly a decade of PD experience, I am simply stating that the majority of people out there dont have the training and yet they whine its a fundamental right so there lazy A can do the bare minimum. And there are a ton of facilities that can be used, LAPD had 3 that can be used, sheriffs has probably half a dozen, most sheriffs departments have the necessary facilities to do it easily.
I would think that somewhere in the middle of your awesomeness you would find time to uphold your OATH to uphold the Constitution.

I'd also add that I find your training claims highly suspect, absent convincing evidence that I should not. Some of us train enough to know what 1000+ hours really entails, and the math doesn't really add up given standard training patterns, and considering Mil/LE training budgets, etc.

I'd also note that most SWAT guys tend to be the brighter, college-grad types with better written communications skills than you exhibit. The repeated misspellings of common words, run on sentences and other "giveaways" indicate you aren't really likely to fit that pattern.
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Old 09-20-2011, 6:25 PM
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Originally Posted by InGrAM View Post
ohh god......

I bet you believe in "common sense" gun laws too, huh?

Sorry you can't get a LTC where you live but you don't need to spit all over everyone else's freedoms because you chose to live where you do.
Nope the gun laws are fine now I am simply trying to state a new tactic to get the law changed to shall issue
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Old 09-20-2011, 6:26 PM
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If you think adding training will give politicians "no choice but to support it" you are fooling yourself. They would spin it as "another attempt for the pro-gun nuts to arm themselves", and the media would start having "Death Wish" movie marathons and saying that we all want to become vigilantes. I appreciate your wish to find an alternative path - but I honestly do not think this will help.
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Old 09-20-2011, 6:29 PM
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I would think that somewhere in the middle of your awesomeness you would find time to uphold your OATH to uphold the Constitution.
Im not an LEO anymore though I am a few months away from being a FED, I am simply advocating a way to change the BS california law, I agree with you, it should be a nation wide shall issue, and I was disappointed when Bush couldnt do it, but cali law is what it is and I am trying to suggest a way to change it
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Old 09-20-2011, 6:36 PM
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Wow are you always this juvenile, the political climate in CA is so messed up I am simply suggesting a tactic to help change it as they will have no arguments if a bill gets drafted changing it to shall issue and adding training requirements
You are advocating that no one is "properly trained" unless they take a 80+ hour course. NTM, you are trying to hide behind a "political" agenda that would never work. I find it very hard to believe that you have any training at all. If you did, you would look at your own department way before you looked at your fellow calgunners.

Oh and yes I am always this "juvenile"
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Old 09-20-2011, 6:39 PM
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Cops (CLEO & sheriffs) just don't want non cops carrying guns. It has nothing to do with the amount of training a LTC holder has.

Just to be clear, the cops on this board are good guys and seem to be the exception.


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Old 09-20-2011, 6:41 PM
Tacobandit Tacobandit is offline
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Originally Posted by InGrAM View Post
You are advocating that no one is "properly trained" unless they take a 80+ hour course. NTM, you are trying to hide behind a "political" agenda that would never work. I find it very hard to believe that you have any training at all. If you did, you would look at your own department way before you looked at your fellow calgunners.

Oh and yes I am always this "juvenile"

No I am not so stop putting words in my mouth but for the average person with little or no firearms training 16 hours is crap, if a police officer has to have hundreds of hours of training then you really shouldnt sit and complain about 80 hours and that was merely a number I threw out there nothing set, heck 40 hours would probably cut it, even for an officer to get his post recertified he has to do 132 hours of training
  #36  
Old 09-20-2011, 6:41 PM
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Nope the gun laws are fine now I am simply trying to state a new tactic to get the law changed to shall issue
We all know what you are now. You gave yourself away.
  #37  
Old 09-20-2011, 6:42 PM
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Unconstitutional.
Should be no training, no interview, no background check beyond the normal NICS check.

LTC issue should be based on:
Prohibited person = No issue
Non-prohibited person = issue

Don't forget that roughly 50% of the states have this method of issue.
In Idaho, the DMV handles issue of LTC and actually ASKS new residents when they apply for their driver's license.


Put your long-indoctrinated California thinking behind you and look at how things are handled in free states.
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A just gov't will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just gov't. If a small minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people the RKBA of the whole is our insurance against their success.
  #38  
Old 09-20-2011, 6:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Tacobandit View Post
No I am not so stop putting words in my mouth but for the average person with little or no firearms training 16 hours is crap, if a police officer has to have hundreds of hours of training then you really shouldnt sit and complain about 80 hours and that was merely a number I threw out there nothing set, heck 40 hours would probably cut it, even for an officer to get his post recertified he has to do 132 hours of training
And the officer needs that for his job.
He SHOULD have specialized training for his job.

But 40 or 80 hours of training would place an undue burden on most people.
Even getting time off work for the current training and interview can be difficult for people... now you're talking about requiring that someone take an entire TWO WEEKS off work for training that is not required by most of the US?


Sorry... Homey don't play dat.
What I would like to say to you would get me banned.
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Originally Posted by dantodd View Post
A just gov't will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just gov't. If a small minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people the RKBA of the whole is our insurance against their success.
  #39  
Old 09-20-2011, 6:47 PM
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So basically in your own uneducated way you are siding with me, because you just stated the training for the CADL isnt good enough....amazing the crap you come up with
That's a pretty bold statement. At no point did I, or will I, accuse you of lacking intelligence.

I was simply saying that based on your comment, about how long it took for firearms to be loaded back then was invalid.

For starters, back then, people were also killed with blunt force objects, knives, swords and other weapons. Killing, from the beginning of mankind, isn't exclusive to using a firearm. History shows that man has existed for a very long time before we invented firearms.

I understand your frustrations with the process. All of us are just as frustrated.

I applaud your attempt at suggesting a solution rather then just whining and complaining.

However, I do not agree with you.

Not everyone that receives training will be successful. It is guaranteed. I tried (and failed apparently) buy using our CADL as an example of how even with training, there is lots of fail on our road ways.

I strongly affirm that you take up helping a Sheriff candidate that is pro-shall issue get elected. That is the best solution at this time.

I don't feel increasing the hours of training will do any good. If anything, it will allow for instructors to spread more of their own FUD. A revamp of the existing course maybe in order but not increasing the time spent.

Many of us have several thousands hours on the range and years of handling firearms without issue.
  #40  
Old 09-20-2011, 6:49 PM
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It is a complete mystery how people that live in other states don't all shoot themselves and everyone around them...
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