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  #1  
Old 11-16-2018, 11:01 AM
Mandingo27 Mandingo27 is offline
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Default Ca roster approved ar pistol

What do you guy/gals think of the roster approved Franklin armory ar pistol? Do yall think it's going to be like the titan ballistics single shot crap where you will have to drill and make mods to make it a semi auto? Or will it come as a fixed mag? I'm really interested in it since my lwrc needs a sibling
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  #2  
Old 11-16-2018, 11:18 AM
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Some good info in the second post of this thread:

https://www.ar15.com/forums/AR-15/Fr...A7/122-733056/
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lewdogg21 View Post
Here's my analogy that anybody on calguns can understand:
Hunters = law abiding gun owners
Poachers = school shooters
See how big the difference is?
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  #3  
Old 11-16-2018, 11:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mandingo27 View Post
What do you guy/gals think of the roster approved Franklin armory ar pistol? Do yall think it's going to be like the titan ballistics single shot crap where you will have to drill and make mods to make it a semi auto? Or will it come as a fixed mag? I'm really interested in it since my lwrc needs a sibling
It has no gas system.
It is a straight pull bolt action pistol with a detachable magazine.
It is not in a roster-exempt form, but being bolt action, it IS exempt from microstamping and assault weapon laws.

DOJ has sent letters to FFLs indicating that the conversion of an SSE v2.0 to Semi-Auto constitutes "manufacturing" and is illegal. The same would apply to replacing the upper on the Franklin with a semi-auto upper.
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Originally Posted by dantodd View Post
A just government will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just government. If a small minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people, the RKBA of the whole is our insurance against their success.
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Old 11-16-2018, 11:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cokebottle View Post
It has no gas system.
It is a straight pull bolt action pistol with a detachable magazine.
It is not in a roster-exempt form, but being bolt action, it IS exempt from microstamping and assault weapon laws.

DOJ has sent letters to FFLs indicating that the conversion of an SSE v2.0 to Semi-Auto constitutes "manufacturing" and is illegal. The same would apply to replacing the upper on the Franklin with a semi-auto upper.
Damn it DOJ. I was going to replace the upper with a semi auto I guess that is out of the question. Man that's hogwash I'm really disappointed
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  #5  
Old 11-16-2018, 11:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mandingo27 View Post
Damn it DOJ. I was going to replace the upper with a semi auto I guess that is out of the question. Man that's hogwash I'm really disappointed
Nothing stopping you from doing that when you go shooting in a free state.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dantodd View Post
A just government will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just government. If a small minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people, the RKBA of the whole is our insurance against their success.
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  #6  
Old 11-16-2018, 11:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PoorRichRichard View Post
Some good info in the second post of this thread:

https://www.ar15.com/forums/AR-15/Fr...A7/122-733056/
The good info in the second post of the thread are links to Calguns discussions.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s....php?t=1488286
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s....php?t=1487186
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  #7  
Old 11-16-2018, 11:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cokebottle View Post
Nothing stopping you from doing that when you go shooting in a free state.
Yea but I dont really go to any free states so I guess I'll just try to get registered lowers
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Old 11-16-2018, 11:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cokebottle View Post
It has no gas system.
It is a straight pull bolt action pistol with a detachable magazine.
It is not in a roster-exempt form, but being bolt action, it IS exempt from microstamping and assault weapon laws.

DOJ has sent letters to FFLs indicating that the conversion of an SSE v2.0 to Semi-Auto constitutes "manufacturing" and is illegal. The same would apply to replacing the upper on the Franklin with a semi-auto upper.
I’m not reading the same letter as you - the DOJ has simply said that by modifying the Franklin Armory bolt-action pistol you may violate current laws. That doesn’t mean you cannot legally modify the Franklin Armory pistol, which is on the approved roster for sale in CA, into a semi-auto pistol, as long as you comply with current laws.

Please show explicitly where you believe the DOJ has said exactly what is illegal in regards to the Franklin Armory pistol.
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  #9  
Old 11-16-2018, 12:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mandingo27 View Post
Yea but I dont really go to any free states so I guess I'll just try to get registered lowers
Either you have one now, or you won't.

That train has left the CA station. You can probably catch it in the next state.
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  #10  
Old 11-16-2018, 12:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beanz2 View Post
Either you have one now, or you won't.

That train has left the CA station. You can probably catch it in the next state.
I already have 1 but I wouldn't mind having another 1
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  #11  
Old 11-16-2018, 12:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beanz2 View Post
Either you have one now, or you won't.

That train has left the CA station. You can probably catch it in the next state.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mandingo27 View Post
I already have 1 but I wouldn't mind having another 1
It's really a matter of what you are willing to pay. I've thought about selling my registered pistol lower, but I really like it. On the other hand, if someone offered me upwards of $1000 for my mine, I'd probably sell it.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lewdogg21 View Post
Here's my analogy that anybody on calguns can understand:
Hunters = law abiding gun owners
Poachers = school shooters
See how big the difference is?
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  #12  
Old 11-16-2018, 1:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PoorRichRichard View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by beanz2 View Post
Either you have one now, or you won't.

That train has left the CA station. You can probably catch it in the next state.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mandingo27 View Post
I already have 1 but I wouldn't mind having another 1
It's really a matter of what you are willing to pay. I've thought about selling my registered pistol lower, but I really like it. On the other hand, if someone offered me upwards of $1000 for my mine, I'd probably sell it.
And how do you plan on transferring a registered AR pistol?
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  #13  
Old 11-16-2018, 2:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cokebottle View Post
It has no gas system.
It is a straight pull bolt action pistol with a detachable magazine.
It is not in a roster-exempt form, but being bolt action, it IS exempt from microstamping and assault weapon laws.

DOJ has sent letters to FFLs indicating that the conversion of an SSE v2.0 to Semi-Auto constitutes "manufacturing" and is illegal. The same would apply to replacing the upper on the Franklin with a semi-auto upper.
Where are you seeing this DOJ info?
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  #14  
Old 11-16-2018, 2:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leoan85 View Post
Where are you seeing this DOJ info?
On the CA DOJ BOF Roster of Handguns Certified for Sale website.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CA DOJ BOF
IMPORTANT INFORMATION
  • All handguns listed are approved with or without night sights.
  • Aftermarket changes or modifications made to certain single shot pistols (i.e. changing upper receivers, connecting gas tubes) may be considered manufacturing these pistols into assault weapons. See California Penal Code section 30515, subdivision (a)(1), for a list of assault weapon characteristics. The purchaser could be in violation of Penal Code section 30600, prohibiting the manufacture of assault weapons, and Penal Code section 30605(a), prohibiting the possession of unregistered assault weapons.
  • Alterations of a single shot pistol (i.e. changing upper receivers, connecting gas tubes) may also be considered manufacturing an unsafe handgun. See California Penal Code sections 31900-31910 for the definition of unsafe handguns and 32000(a) for more information on illegal acts involving unsafe handguns.
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  #15  
Old 11-16-2018, 2:43 PM
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"Aftermarket changes or modifications made to certain single shot pistols...."

"Alterations of a single shot pistol (i.e. changing upper receivers, connecting gas tubes) may also be considered manufacturing an unsafe handgun. "

The Franklin pistol is not a "single shot" pistol.
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  #16  
Old 11-16-2018, 2:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sofbak View Post
The Franklin pistol is not a "single shot" pistol.
This is correct.

The Franklin Armory CA7 is a bolt-action repeating pistol.

Which is the reason why it needed to be listed on the Roster of Handguns Certified for Sale, in order to be sold in CA to non-exempt persons.
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  #17  
Old 11-16-2018, 2:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quiet View Post
This is correct.

The Franklin Armory CA7 is a bolt-action repeating pistol.

Which is the reason why it needed to be listed on the Roster of Handguns Certified for Sale, in order to be sold in CA to non-exempt persons.
So for the knuckleheads out there like myself, the Franklin armory pistol CAN be converted?
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  #18  
Old 11-16-2018, 3:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DDM4556 View Post
So for the knuckleheads out there like myself, the Franklin armory pistol CAN be converted?
If DOJ says:

Quote:
Alterations of a single shot pistol (i.e. changing upper receivers, connecting gas tubes) may also be considered manufacturing an unsafe handgun.
They could also say:

Quote:
Alterations of a bolt action repeading pistol (i.e. changing upper receivers, connecting gas tubes) may also be considered manufacturing an unsafe handgun.
Or worse:

Alterations of a on roster semi automatic pistol (i.e. Changing color. triggers, Barrel, ect) may also be considered manufacturing an unsafe handgun.
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  #19  
Old 11-16-2018, 3:14 PM
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Exactly.

They are only referring to Modifications of the single shot- not the bolt action.
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  #20  
Old 11-16-2018, 3:17 PM
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". ..may also be considered... "

Key word: may. DOJ is attempting a FUD campaign here.

But you should read the original thread on the CA7 that was started by FA. This has already been hashed through there.
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Old 11-16-2018, 3:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quiet View Post
This is correct.

The Franklin Armory CA7 is a bolt-action repeating pistol.

Which is the reason why it needed to be listed on the Roster of Handguns Certified for Sale, in order to be sold in CA to non-exempt persons.
Quiet, I always highly respect your posts & knowledge on the site, but your just not making sense here.

You say you can’t install a gas tube or swap an upper in your opinion based off a doj letter regarding single-shot pistols.

But then say the FA CA7 is not a single-shot pistol, it’s a bolt action repeater.

*I think we all in agree that in a semi-auto condition it would require a fixed magazine.
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  #22  
Old 11-16-2018, 3:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beanz2 View Post
And how do you plan on transferring a registered AR pistol?
Go back a reread my post. It’s a registered “pistol lower”. If they were purchased prior to Jan 1st 2017 (check my dates- not positive on this), and we registered under the single shot exemption, I believe they are still transferable. This is why you’ll see them pop up here in the sales forum, and they’ll usually go for upwards of $700.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingShooter View Post
*I think we all in agree that in a semi-auto condition it would require a fixed magazine.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lewdogg21 View Post
Here's my analogy that anybody on calguns can understand:
Hunters = law abiding gun owners
Poachers = school shooters
See how big the difference is?

Last edited by PoorRichRichard; 11-16-2018 at 3:46 PM..
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  #23  
Old 11-16-2018, 4:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingShooter View Post
Quiet, I always highly respect your posts & knowledge on the site, but your just not making sense here.

You say you can’t install a gas tube or swap an upper in your opinion based off a doj letter regarding single-shot pistols.

But then say the FA CA7 is not a single-shot pistol, it’s a bolt action repeater.

*I think we all in agree that in a semi-auto condition it would require a fixed magazine.
A bolt-action single-shot pistol is different from a bolt-action repeating pistol.

The main difference between the two is:
1. A single-shot pistol has a fixed 0 round magazine capacity and is typically loaded via single cartridge in chamber.
2. A repeating pistol has a fixed magazine capacity of 1 or more rounds or it has the ability to accept detachable magazines of any capacity size.

In regards to CA unsafe handgun laws...

A dimensionally compliant bolt-action single-shot pistol that has never been semi-auto is exempt from CA unsafe handgun laws.

A non-dimensionally compliant bolt-action single-shot pistol is not exempt from CA unsafe handgun laws.
A bolt-action single-shot pistol that was made from a semi-auto is not exempt from CA unsafe handgun laws.
A bolt-action repeating pistol is not exempt from CA unsafe handgun laws.
Therefore, they can only be transferred by a CA FFL dealer if an exemption is utilized or it is listed on the Roster of Handguns Certified for Sale.

In order to be listed on the Roster of Handguns Certified for Sale, a manually operated (bolt-action, lever-action, pump-action) repeating pistol needs to pass CA DOJ safety testing.
^Which the Franklin Armory CA7 has done.
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Last edited by Quiet; 11-16-2018 at 4:53 PM..
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  #24  
Old 11-16-2018, 8:18 PM
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^understood. I guess I just don’t see the difference in buying a gen 3 glock and having it cerakote’d, or changed the barrel/side vs adding a gas tube or different upper to the Franklin Armory CA7. All kinds of people add a new slide or have it cut for an RMR on their gen 3 glocks and that changes the roster status from when they were bought, and there doesn’t seem to be an issue as long as it stays within the law, i.e no threaded barrels, 10+rnd mags, etc.

So a long as you do the same with the CA7 pistol(fixed magazine, 10rnd mag, etc) I don’t see how it’s any different than modding any other on roster gun?

Last edited by FlyingShooter; 11-16-2018 at 8:29 PM..
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  #25  
Old 11-17-2018, 12:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LEAD LAUNCHER View Post
Exactly.

They are only referring to Modifications of the single shot- not the bolt action.
At this time.

The letter refers to single shot because it is in response to queries or public postings (potentially on Calguns) about single shot.
The letter was issued before the Franklin announcement was made.

Presently, there is no letter specifically prohibiting the conversion of the bolt-action Franklin.
Open discussion, or inquiry of the DOJ will likely result in such a letter being issued.

The whole mess revolves around the redefinition of "manufacturing" to include "assembly of parts" in 2017.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dantodd View Post
A just government will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just government. If a small minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people, the RKBA of the whole is our insurance against their success.
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  #26  
Old 11-18-2018, 9:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cokebottle View Post
The letter was issued before the Franklin announcement was made.


The letter was issued the same day the Franklin Pistol was added to the roster.
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  #27  
Old 11-18-2018, 10:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cokebottle View Post
At this time.

The letter refers to single shot because it is in response to queries or public postings (potentially on Calguns) about single shot.
The letter was issued before the Franklin announcement was made.

Presently, there is no letter specifically prohibiting the conversion of the bolt-action Franklin.
Open discussion, or inquiry of the DOJ will likely result in such a letter being issued.

The whole mess revolves around the redefinition of "manufacturing" to include "assembly of parts" in 2017.
For CADOJ, Franklin Armory, and the public, it's best to let sleeping dogs lie.
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  #28  
Old 11-18-2018, 11:32 AM
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Agreed.

I wouldn’t mind if the mods made this whole thread just go bye-bye.

And “Cleaned up” the other thread LOL as well.

Probably not a bad idea.
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  #29  
Old 11-18-2018, 12:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quiet View Post
A bolt-action single-shot pistol is different from a bolt-action repeating pistol.

The main difference between the two is:
1. A single-shot pistol has a fixed 0 round magazine capacity and is typically loaded via single cartridge in chamber.
2. A repeating pistol has a fixed magazine capacity of 1 or more rounds or it has the ability to accept detachable magazines of any capacity size.

In regards to CA unsafe handgun laws...

A dimensionally compliant bolt-action single-shot pistol that has never been semi-auto is exempt from CA unsafe handgun laws.

A non-dimensionally compliant bolt-action single-shot pistol is not exempt from CA unsafe handgun laws.
A bolt-action single-shot pistol that was made from a semi-auto is not exempt from CA unsafe handgun laws.
A bolt-action repeating pistol is not exempt from CA unsafe handgun laws.
Therefore, they can only be transferred by a CA FFL dealer if an exemption is utilized or it is listed on the Roster of Handguns Certified for Sale.

In order to be listed on the Roster of Handguns Certified for Sale, a manually operated (bolt-action, lever-action, pump-action) repeating pistol needs to pass CA DOJ safety testing.
^Which the Franklin Armory CA7 has done.
All that considered how will this apply into making a magazine fed, pistol grip bolt action rifle capable of semi automatic fire?
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  #30  
Old 11-18-2018, 12:21 PM
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https://www.crpa.org/wp-content/uplo...ot-Pistols.pdf

Crpa's take
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  #31  
Old 11-18-2018, 3:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Simi762 View Post
All that considered how will this apply into making a magazine fed, pistol grip bolt action rifle capable of semi automatic fire?
See post #27.
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  #32  
Old 11-20-2018, 2:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PoorRichRichard View Post
Go back a reread my post. It’s a registered “pistol lower”. If they were purchased prior to Jan 1st 2017 (check my dates- not positive on this), and we registered under the single shot exemption, I believe they are still transferable. This is why you’ll see them pop up here in the sales forum, and they’ll usually go for upwards of $700.
I bought 1 around Feb of this year and all we had to do is transfer the lower and make it compliant once I received the lower. They are still transferable
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  #33  
Old 11-20-2018, 8:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PoorRichRichard View Post
Go back a reread my post. It’s a registered “pistol lower”. If they were purchased prior to Jan 1st 2017 (check my dates- not positive on this), and we registered under the single shot exemption, I believe they are still transferable. This is why you’ll see them pop up here in the sales forum, and they’ll usually go for upwards of $700.
A Registered Assault Weapon AR Pistol is not transferrable.
A non-AW AR Pistol that completed the VolReg process prior to July 1 2018 using a self-applied serial number or commercial product is transferable.
Purchasing a bare lower previously registered as a pistol is potentially (even the DOJ memo states "may") no longer legal to assemble into a semiautomatic pistol under the memo released pertaining to SSE.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dantodd View Post
A just government will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just government. If a small minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people, the RKBA of the whole is our insurance against their success.
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