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Centerfire Rifles - Manually Operated Lever action, bolt action or other non gas operated centerfire rifles.

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  #41  
Old 02-11-2017, 10:47 AM
shaocaholica shaocaholica is offline
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Unless there's an actual legal case or regulation with expanded specifics on what is or isn't a manual action, I'm not going to treat them as such based on what a nameless DoJ lawyer said outside of court to a guy who told another guy who told his brother and posted about it on the internet.
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  #42  
Old 02-11-2017, 5:37 PM
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Originally Posted by shaocaholica View Post
Unless there's an actual legal case or regulation with expanded specifics on what is or isn't a manual action, I'm not going to treat them as such based on what a nameless DoJ lawyer said outside of court to a guy who told another guy who told his brother and posted about it on the internet.
Go ahead and do what you want, I'm not stopping you, I'm just giving a heads up about the situation. that's why I said it's best to ask the NRA or an expert on the issue.

Last edited by kbstingwing; 02-11-2017 at 5:40 PM..
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  #43  
Old 02-11-2017, 10:20 PM
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I'm calling BU&@@&!! On what that guy said. A manual rifle is a manual Rifle period. While I understand the worry of a possible " broken or incomplete " semi auto if you have a rifle that doesn't have a gas system installed it is not a semi auto rifle. If your worried about it you can weld the gas port like I did on mine or you can get a barrel without one. Then there is no arguing wether it is semi or not.
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  #44  
Old 02-12-2017, 8:44 AM
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Remember Ca is the make BS into law State...... just say'n, just waiting for Trump and his team to clean out the garbage here............
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  #45  
Old 02-12-2017, 9:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Bullets&Whitewalls View Post
I'm calling BU&@@&!! On what that guy said. A manual rifle is a manual Rifle period. While I understand the worry of a possible " broken or incomplete " semi auto if you have a rifle that doesn't have a gas system installed it is not a semi auto rifle. If your worried about it you can weld the gas port like I did on mine or you can get a barrel without one. Then there is no arguing wether it is semi or not.
I agree with you 100%, we have Common Sense and recognize that a Manual Rifle is a Manual Rifle......
But when has the State of California have any Common Sense in it's law making process....... look who's running this place..... Common sense is now a myth for the Mythbusters to prove it's existance.....
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  #46  
Old 02-12-2017, 10:19 PM
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Originally Posted by kbstingwing View Post
I agree with you 100%, we have Common Sense and recognize that a Manual Rifle is a Manual Rifle......
But when has the State of California have any Common Sense in it's law making process....... look who's running this place..... Common sense is now a myth for the Mythbusters to prove it's existance.....
Sad but true. I would watch that episode for sure though.
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  #47  
Old 02-12-2017, 10:51 PM
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i like it
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  #48  
Old 02-13-2017, 12:15 PM
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I started this thread on this discussion about the possible DOJ legality issues of the bolt action AR, we can take all questions and replies to this thread
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s....php?t=1302038
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  #49  
Old 02-13-2017, 9:27 PM
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Here's my manual AR build. UMOS kit from CRTguns. Sure wish he went mainstream with this kit. It's awesome
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File Type: jpg IMG_0111b.jpg (61.8 KB, 269 views)
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  #50  
Old 02-14-2017, 9:38 AM
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Nice Pump Action, no doubts about that one, I like it.......
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  #51  
Old 03-15-2017, 10:02 AM
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You guy's were right, the Liberal Lawyers were trying to Manipulate legal AR builds, Sorry for the flack, I just wanted to make sure that my builds were legal, So building a Bolt action AR is Legal......

Kevin
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  #52  
Old 03-15-2017, 8:13 PM
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I don't get it. Why not just buy an actual bolt gun? This concept seems completely and utterly ridiculous to me.
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  #53  
Old 03-15-2017, 8:33 PM
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easy fix. make the front pivot pin non removable. Either a longer pin welded so its non removable or a older Colt style screw type. also weld up the gas tube hole in the receiver or get a 9mm upper that has no gas tube hole. let them have fun with that one since there is no way to install a gas tube. thats how i would build one.
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  #54  
Old 03-15-2017, 8:34 PM
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Originally Posted by rumble phish View Post
I don't get it. Why not just buy an actual bolt gun? This concept seems completely and utterly ridiculous to me.
you don't get it
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  #55  
Old 03-16-2017, 12:29 AM
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Originally Posted by shaocaholica View Post
you don't get it
No, I don't. Take a rifle that was never meant to be a "bolt" gun and make it one. Assinine.

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  #56  
Old 03-16-2017, 1:12 AM
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Originally Posted by rumble phish View Post
I don't get it. Why not just buy an actual bolt gun? This concept seems completely and utterly ridiculous to me.
Better yet, why not just get a m1a or mini14 if you want a semi auto, who needs all those evil features anyway, they are all surely only meant for weapons of war and everyday citizens have no need for such weapons of war. Why own a weapon at all when we have fine law enforcement officers just 7-57minutes away depending on the severity of the call.
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  #57  
Old 03-16-2017, 8:22 AM
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Originally Posted by ucb View Post
Better yet, why not just get a m1a or mini14 if you want a semi auto, who needs all those evil features anyway, they are all surely only meant for weapons of war and everyday citizens have no need for such weapons of war. Why own a weapon at all when we have fine law enforcement officers just 7-57minutes away depending on the severity of the call.
Your statement of "why not just get a {insert model of SA rifle here} misses the point of my question.

A better analogy would be "why don't you take a Remington 700 and make it a semi-auto?"

If you can't see the ridiculousness of making a semi-auto rifle into a hacked up "bolt gun" to avoid a stupid law then I don't think I can explain it to you.

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  #58  
Old 03-16-2017, 9:52 AM
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" I Get It " because we can because it's a challenge because we already own have a bunch of bolt action rifles because we already own a bunch of AR 15/10, AK, SKS, Mini, M1a etc because the liberal lawmakers won't like it. If people don't get it they don't have to build one
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  #59  
Old 03-16-2017, 10:12 AM
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Originally Posted by radicalray View Post
" I Get It " because we can because it's a challenge because we already own have a bunch of bolt action rifles because we already own a bunch of AR 15/10, AK, SKS, Mini, M1a etc because the liberal lawmakers won't like it. If people don't get it they don't have to build one
If that's where you're coming from then I get THAT. But it seems many in this thread are doing not for the challenge, but​ to avoid the looming laws. If THAT is the case, then I don't get it.

But you're right. To each their own. Not my cup of tea but if it blows your skirt up, more power to ya.

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  #60  
Old 03-16-2017, 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by SDcollector View Post
I'm converting to a bolt action and was surprised to hear about the amount of force needed for lockup. Could fouling be an issue?
The AR platform relies on the kinetic energy of the buffer/carrier to lockup.
When you try to do it by hand, you will not have nearly ANY kinetic energy stored so you will have to PUSH quite hard to get the ejector spring to compress and the extractor to snap over the case rim while the bolt is trying to rotate via the camming surface of the bolt carrier.
The same will apply to the primary extraction which is usually handled by the kinetic energy stored in the bolt carrier by the gas that propels it rearward.

The AR/M16 design was simply not DESIGNED for manual operation.
If you want smooth manual operation, get a proper bolt rifle which has a 2.5" long lever (some would call it a bolt handle) which cams the bolt open and closed much easier.
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  #61  
Old 03-16-2017, 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by kbstingwing View Post
I was just informed by my Brother who had a discussion with the owner of a local Gun shop, that there may be some legal issues with a bolt action non-semi auto AR, apparently some DOJ lawyers believe that it can be made semi auto too easily and there is a fine line on the subject......so he said DO NOT go shooting it where anyone could deem it illegal.... until the DOJ has defined the wording, It is best to speak to someone like the NRA or someone in Calguns who knows the law on this subject, apparently they will still consider it an Assault weapon..... even though it operates manually.......
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Originally Posted by kbstingwing View Post
it's not fake news, the owner of the store just recently went to a FFL DOJ meeting and this subject came up, he said the DOJ Lawyers said there is a fine line right now and could not say if the DOJ will accept Bolt Action AR's as truly being Bolt Action, there will be some debate on this so we'll have to wait for the outcome, so at this time as long as you have a bullet button or other device you are ok until the next year when the ban takes affect or new wording comes out on this.
Typical gunshop FUD.
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  #62  
Old 03-16-2017, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by rumble phish View Post
I don't get it. Why not just buy an actual bolt gun? This concept seems completely and utterly ridiculous to me.
Typical bolt guns don't look as evil.
Obviously, if someone wanted the superior manual function of a bolt gun, they would get one.
AR's being made to function manually is ALL about keeping the LOOKS of an evil semi-auto rifle.
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Old 03-16-2017, 10:53 AM
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Originally Posted by ar15barrels View Post
The AR platform relies on the kinetic energy of the buffer/carrier to lockup.
When you try to do it by hand, you will not have nearly ANY kinetic energy stored so you will have to PUSH quite hard to get the ejector spring to compress and the extractor to snap over the case rim while the bolt is trying to rotate via the camming surface of the bolt carrier.
The same will apply to the primary extraction which is usually handled by the kinetic energy stored in the bolt carrier by the gas that propels it rearward.

The AR/M16 design was simply not DESIGNED for manual operation.
If you want smooth manual operation, get a proper bolt rifle which has a 2.5" long lever (some would call it a bolt handle) which cams the bolt open and closed much easier.
And there you have it folks...
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Old 03-16-2017, 10:57 AM
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Originally Posted by ar15barrels View Post
Typical bolt guns don't look as evil.
Obviously, if someone wanted the superior manual function of a bolt gun, they would get one.
AR's being made to function manually is ALL about keeping the LOOKS of an evil semi-auto rifle.

Exactly my point. Thank you.

I've said it before and I'll say it again.. I just don't understand the mentality of removing functionality from your rifle just for the sake of keeping a few *mostly* cosmetic features.
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Old 03-16-2017, 1:09 PM
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Originally Posted by rumble phish View Post
Exactly my point. Thank you.

I've said it before and I'll say it again.. I just don't understand the mentality of removing functionality from your rifle just for the sake of keeping a few *mostly* cosmetic features.
For the novelty and to make a personal statement about the current gun laws. Oddly enough your argument sounds awfully close to what a leftist might use to justify the aw laws.

Leftist: "No one needs those weapons of war, why does an everyday citizen need those features either way?"
Gun owner: "You do realize those features are largely cosmetic and you can get a similar semiautomatic rifle without them that fires just the same. These laws are not increasing public safety at all"
Leftist: "If they are really just cosmetic why do you really care if they are banned, just get a regular rifle. If anything perhaps they should ban all semiauto rifles."
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Old 03-16-2017, 1:15 PM
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And for the record I don't think anyone who may go down this route will think it will be performance or functionally superior to a proper bolt gun.
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Old 03-16-2017, 1:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ar15barrels View Post
The AR platform relies on the kinetic energy of the buffer/carrier to lockup.
When you try to do it by hand, you will not have nearly ANY kinetic energy stored so you will have to PUSH quite hard to get the ejector spring to compress and the extractor to snap over the case rim while the bolt is trying to rotate via the camming surface of the bolt carrier.
The same will apply to the primary extraction which is usually handled by the kinetic energy stored in the bolt carrier by the gas that propels it rearward.

The AR/M16 design was simply not DESIGNED for manual operation.
If you want smooth manual operation, get a proper bolt rifle which has a 2.5" long lever (some would call it a bolt handle) which cams the bolt open and closed much easier.
Trying to lock it up after the bolt has been pushed forward until it contacts the cartridge is near impossible. But even after removing my buffer and spring, I have no problem when it's quickly closed from the open position. And I've found that extraction is a non-issue and that it's no more difficult to eject than any other bolt action.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ar15barrels View Post
Typical bolt guns don't look as evil.
Obviously, if someone wanted the superior manual function of a bolt gun, they would get one.
AR's being made to function manually is ALL about keeping the LOOKS of an evil semi-auto rifle.
What is it about some folks who somehow know what motivates others?!? I'm absolutely positive that the people who can't wait to jump through the documentation and travel hoops to register their AR's are bootlickers who're ALL about kowtowing to their masters.

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Old 03-16-2017, 3:25 PM
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Originally Posted by rumble phish View Post
If that's where you're coming from then I get THAT. But it seems many in this thread are doing not for the challenge, but​ to avoid the looming laws. If THAT is the case, then I don't get it.

But you're right. To each their own. Not my cup of tea but if it blows your skirt up, more power to ya.

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Your right there I wouldn't be converting one of my AR's to bolt to avoid registering
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Old 03-16-2017, 3:29 PM
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Originally Posted by ucb View Post
For the novelty and to make a personal statement about the current gun laws. Oddly enough your argument sounds awfully close to what a leftist might use to justify the aw laws.

Leftist: "No one needs those weapons of war, why does an everyday citizen need those features either way?"
Gun owner: "You do realize those features are largely cosmetic and you can get a similar semiautomatic rifle without them that fires just the same. These laws are not increasing public safety at all"
Leftist: "If they are really just cosmetic why do you really care if they are banned, just get a regular rifle. If anything perhaps they should ban all semiauto rifles."
You miss my point, and your analogy show me that you cannot have a discussion without putting your partisan hat on. This is not a left/right or anti/pro gun discussion. Not in the least. It's a "keep your rifle functioning as it was designed to or completely neuter it" discussion.

If you absolutely want the features then just register your gun. If you don't want to register but want to keep your features then use a Maglock or similar device. If you don't care what it looks like but you do want it to function as is was designed to just go featureless.

Making your semi-automatic into a "bolt" gun is not "sticking it to the man" in any way, shape, or form. It's simply making your rifle less functional for appearance sake. Of course, if that is your thing then God bless you. But I'll never understand it.
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Old 03-16-2017, 7:05 PM
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Originally Posted by rumble phish View Post
Your statement of "why not just get a {insert model of SA rifle here} misses the point of my question.

A better analogy would be "why don't you take a Remington 700 and make it a semi-auto?"

If you can't see the ridiculousness of making a semi-auto rifle into a hacked up "bolt gun" to avoid a stupid law then I don't think I can explain it to you.
The choice is do it, or simply don't shoot the gun and buy a bolt gun.

I already HAVE several ARs. They will have to be either made compliant or registered one way or another.
I can make them bolt guns and continue to enjoy them until I am able to leave California AND avoid registering them.

Yes, it's a stupid law, but it's not exactly "avoiding"... it's remaining legal so we don't lose 100% of our gun rights in all 50 states.
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Old 03-16-2017, 7:10 PM
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I'm absolutely positive that the people who can't wait to jump through the documentation and travel hoops to register their AR's are bootlickers who're ALL about kowtowing to their masters.


Removing all the features IS kowtowing to your master...
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Old 03-16-2017, 7:16 PM
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Wouldn't either way be kowtowing to master?
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Old 03-16-2017, 7:25 PM
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Wouldn't either way be kowtowing to master?
Don't attempt to inject common sense into an internet pissing contest.
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Old 03-16-2017, 9:51 PM
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Originally Posted by rumble phish View Post
You miss my point, and your analogy show me that you cannot have a discussion without putting your partisan hat on. This is not a left/right or anti/pro gun discussion. Not in the least. It's a "keep your rifle functioning as it was designed to or completely neuter it" discussion.

If you absolutely want the features then just register your gun. If you don't want to register but want to keep your features then use a Maglock or similar device. If you don't care what it looks like but you do want it to function as is was designed to just go featureless.

Making your semi-automatic into a "bolt" gun is not "sticking it to the man" in any way, shape, or form. It's simply making your rifle less functional for appearance sake. Of course, if that is your thing then God bless you. But I'll never understand it.
Actually its the other way around, you are missing mine.

The thought of making a bolt action AR is 100% a political/partisan driven decision, if you can't see why not, I'm not really sure what to tell you. This subject simply would not come up if it wasnt for california's political climate.

And no comments on your opinions on registration either, just because you feel that way, doesn't mean all gun owners do. There are also plenty of folks who might register, have featureless rifles, AND make these hybird builds. But the fact that you are trying to force your opinions on the subject onto others is exactly what the left likes to do as well.

Different folks,different strokes, just because you don't understand it doesn't mean others won't find some sort of value in it, even if its purely for the novelty.
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Old 03-16-2017, 10:19 PM
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Actually its the other way around, you are missing mine.

The thought of making a bolt action AR is 100% a political/partisan driven decision, if you can't see why not, I'm not really sure what to tell you. This subject simply would not come up if it wasnt for california's political climate.

And no comments on your opinions on registration either, just because you feel that way, doesn't mean all gun owners do. There are also plenty of folks who might register, have featureless rifles, AND make these hybird builds. But the fact that you are trying to force your opinions on the subject onto others is exactly what the left likes to do as well.

Different folks,different strokes, just because you don't understand it doesn't mean others won't find some sort of value in it, even if its purely for the novelty.
Um, okay then. Go "stick it to the man" with your bolt action AR. Good for you. I guess you missed the last line of my reply when I said..

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Of course, if that is your thing then God bless you. But I'll never understand it.
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Old 03-17-2017, 12:03 PM
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Originally Posted by dvs762 View Post
easy fix. make the front pivot pin non removable. Either a longer pin welded so its non removable or a older Colt style screw type. also weld up the gas tube hole in the receiver or get a 9mm upper that has no gas tube hole. let them have fun with that one since there is no way to install a gas tube. thats how i would build one.
How i blocked the gas tube port:

Using an 8" long 3/8-16 pulley tap ( https://www.amazon.com/8-16-Speed-St...+8%22+long+tap) I tapped the gas tube port from the bolt side to the cloverleaf. The port is 5/16" diameter which is perfect size to tap 3/8-16, no drilling required.

Next cleaned all cutting fluid and chips by rinsing in acetone and blowing with compressed air.

Cleaned 3/8-16 x 1/4" stainless steel set screw with acetone and compresses air. Then mixed JB Weld epoxy and coated both the inside thread and the set screw and screwed it in all the way using a long T-handle Allen wrench until it stopped against the cloverleaf. The screw is installed from the rear of the receiver toward the front. Using a short 1/4" set screw leaves clearance for the gas key which is necessary to retain the OEM operating handle in conversions of standard uppers, or an accessory side charging handle such as (http://www.gfgear.com/charging-handl...g-side-charger). It is also necessary to carefully clean excess epoxy from the receiver and the threaded portion leading up to the set screw with acetone and cotton swabs. After allowing a few days to completely cure, my attempt to remove the set screw would torque the wrench to near the failure point without breaking the epoxy bond. No welding is necessary.

I also use JP Enterprise's Modular Hand Grips, where the aluminum outer receiver nut gas tube port is similarly blocked by tapping the gas tube access port 12-24 UNC with a 12-24 x 3/8" set screw epoxied in place from the rear with the socket head facing forward so that it can be snugged up into the cloverleaf to retain the outer receiver gas nut at the 12 O'Clock position until the thread locker cures.

Three of these uppers have been modified; one with a Hart .204 Ruger 1:9" twist, 24" barrel with no gas port; two with Hart .223 Wilde 1:8" twist, Hart 20" heavy sporter barrels. All three are .5" or better shooters, amazing me beyond expectations.

Last edited by Wrangler John; 03-17-2017 at 12:06 PM..
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  #77  
Old 03-17-2017, 11:27 PM
Railguner Railguner is offline
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http://www.rivermangunworks.com/mbr-rifle
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Old 03-21-2017, 12:04 AM
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Scratch705 Scratch705 is offline
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https://youtu.be/78VDHtA-6YE?t=4m47s

found this bolt action AR from the UK guys.

looks pretty slick too. and the UK guys get suppressors.
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Old 03-21-2017, 5:21 PM
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I have several straight pull AR's in 7.62/39 and 556. The only difference in them from a semi-auto is Gas block, tube and upper receiver with bcg tapped for a charging handle. They retain the buffer and spring. I did this because of the modular approach. I can change the caliber, barrel length, stock style, scope easily and quickly as compared to a bolt action rifle, which I also have. As far as the AR cycling manually I have not had any problems charging a round or ejecting a fired cartridge. Tell me what the difference is in sending the bolt home by pressing the bolt release to pick up a shell to chamber and someone doing it manually, obviously not as fast but it works. It's been done in Great Britain for quite a long time. I have seen PSL's with the gas port blocked in GB and they work also. Yes it is neutering an icon but it's just a choice of how I wanted to do it.
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