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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel. |
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#1
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Helping my mom ULCC
ok so my mom is going to start ULCC, she recently got a DV restraining order and is in fear of retaliation.
So, I am looking into all the laws and pulling my hair out lol I am also putting together a printout for her with quotes from different PC in case of a misinformed LEO. Here is what I have so far: PC 626.9 a) This section shall be known, and may be cited, as the Gun-Free School Zone Act of 1995. .... (2) When the firearm is an unloaded pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed on the person and is in a locked container or within the locked trunk of a motor vehicle. This section does not prohibit or limit the otherwise lawful transportation of any other firearm, other than a pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed on the person, in accordance with state law. PC 16850 As used in Sections 17740, 23925, 25105, 25205, and 25610, in Article 3 (commencing with Section 25505) of Chapter 2 of Division 5 of Title 4, and in Chapter 6 (commencing with Section 26350) of Division 5 of Title 4, "locked container" means a secure container that is fully enclosed and locked by a padlock, keylock, combination lock, or similar locking device. The term "locked container" does not include the utility or glove compartment of a motor vehicle. PC 16860 As used in Sections 16850, 25105, and 25205, "locking device" means a device that is designed to prevent a firearm from functioning and, when applied to the firearm, renders the firearm inoperable. 26405. Section 26400 does not apply to, or affect, the carrying of an unloaded firearm that is not a handgun in any of the following circumstances: (c) When the firearm is either in a locked container or encased and it is being transported directly between any place places where a person is not prohibited from possessing that firearm and the course of travel shall include only those deviations between authorized locations as are reasonably necessary under the circumstances. am I forgetting anything? thanks. Last edited by Dantedamean; 11-15-2012 at 7:51 PM.. |
#3
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Unfortunately, LUCC ( locked unloaded concealed carry) is an ineffective means of self defense. I hold a CCW permit and carry daily, and must thus state that even with a loaded pistol on my hip in certain cases I'd be unable to defend myself. LUCC presents a problem because any situation which allows you mother enough time to unlock, load, chamber, and shoot is enough time to withdraw and dial 911.
This point is important considering that after any live fire defensive incident the citizen WILL have to justify their actions in court.
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The more prohibitions you have, the less virtuous people will be. The more subsidies you have, the less self reliant people will be. -Lao-Tzu, Tau Te Ching. 479 BCE The 1911 may have been in wars for 100 years, but Masetro Bartolomeo Beretta was arming the world 400 years before John Browning was ever a wet dream. |
#4
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LUCC may be useful in a mass shooting situation (where you may need a firearm for self defense, but are not necessarily the primary target), but unlikely to be useful for immediate self defense when you are the specific target. I've timed myself with my own setup and it takes me 8 seconds from reaching for it to loaded/cocked. Too slow if facing a crazy person with a knife or gun after you.
I'd tell her to get a taser or other personal defense device that allows for unpermitted "loaded" concealed carry. |
#5
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i agree with all the above about talking your mom out of LUCC, key reasons:
Training: how much firearm experience does she have? can she safely unload it while blind folded, hanging upside down? how much range time does she have? you have to remember that your intention is to keep her safe. if you dont have confidence in her skill and ability, its best to keep the gun away from her before she gets hurt by her own gun Practicalilty: those of us who carries everyday, we struggle enought to shave seconds of our draw-to-shoot speed. in the event that she faces someone and wants to use her gun, it will take WAY to long for anyone to go through the process of unlocking and loading the gun. like mentioned before, its more of a last option tool in case of a mass shooting where you have "some" time to actually go through the entire loading process.
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#6
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Come on guys! Of cause there are situations when even LCC will not be enough to protect yourself. But this is not a reason to completely give up and to leave gun at home. Sure, LCC is a MUCH better option IF it is available. What if it is not?!...
Yes, if you are attacked and struggling to fight of the aggressor, ULCC will not be much useful. But this is not the only type of attack. Sometimes victim does see the attack coming from a distance. Sometimes victim may be able to lock herself into a bathroom or a closet or a car before attacker gets to her. It will not give you protection, but will give you enough time to get ready. We all agree here: LCC is better and ULCC is not perfect. But if legal LCC is not an option, would you still prefer ULCC to being unarmed? To answer the OP question, read here: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...71&postcount=1
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Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote. Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790) |
#7
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I'm always amazed on this forum at how many so called progun guys are completely against someone carrying a weapon. The point of this thread got completely lost. Last edited by Dantedamean; 11-16-2012 at 8:37 AM.. |
#8
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I agree. While it's not the most efficient method of carry, LUCC does give you certain options. More options concerning situations where your life may be at risk is always better. And the gun could always be part of a get home bag/kit, too. Doesn't necessarily HAVE to be just for the purposes of immediate self-defense. Again, more options.
I think the point others are driving at is your mother shouldn't rely on LUCC as her primary means of self-defense. It's too slow for that purpose. Make sure she realizes that its a measure of absolute last resort ONLY if she has time, and even then ONLY if she has nowhere left to hide or run. |
#10
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*REMOVE THIS PART BEFORE POSTING* |
#11
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You may want to consider adding pepper spray to the arsenal since it can be carried everywhere. |
#12
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Now that he is escalating I just want my mom to have all the options available to her. I've trained her in krav maga, I've started training her in knife fighting and I've taught her how to shoot. |
#13
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#14
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She's in the category of come back when he tries to kill you. I'm amazed she granted the new TRO. Edit: oh and she has about 60k of unpaid attorney fees because the divorce was drug out for 2 years. There is no money to higher a lawyer. |
#15
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The first rule of a gunfight is have a gun. OK, maybe the law restricts how fast you can get it into action, and that might negate some utility, but leaving it at home negates all utility. "Oh, if you can't cater for every circumstance, don't bother to cater for anything?" is what some of you are saying.
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John -- bitter gun owner. All opinions expressed here are my own unless I say otherwise. I am not a lawyer and this is not legal advice. Last edited by Glock22Fan; 11-16-2012 at 1:02 PM.. |
#16
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I would rather have a loaded accessible "Taser and Pepper Spray" than a LUCC.
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"The California matrix of gun control laws is among the harshest in the nation and are filled with criminal law traps for people of common intelligence who desire to obey the law." - U.S. District Judge Roger T. Benitez |
#17
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I think it is up to the individual to choose their own comfort level with all this. Tasers are not much use against more than one attacker, and pepper spray can be hit and miss.
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John -- bitter gun owner. All opinions expressed here are my own unless I say otherwise. I am not a lawyer and this is not legal advice. |
#18
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I want to know where she is going to get training to pull out that locked gun, unlock it, load it, then get off a shot. If you do not have proper training for this exact type of situation, you will make things worse if she has to rely on that firearm that is unloaded and locked.
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#19
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First, not what this thread is about at all. I don't know how to be any clearer. This is not posted in the general gun asking about the idea of doing this. It is posted in the legal section trying to talk about the legality and PC of LUCC. Second, I've already addressed what your saying... Read before you post. Not constructive at all and not on topic, |
#20
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Instead I went to the FBI... Nothing happened, he still continues to rape and beat this woman regularly and is on an insane power trip. Dont really care anymore as the woman turned out to be a disgusting pile of crap deserving of the life she chose to run back too. Interestingly enough he still works for Ventura PD. I will never trust that department again, the Ventura Sheriffs Department are the only people I talk to now. Sadly because of political pressure they couldnt get involved either. This man had active duty officers following his ex-wife, threatening her, pulling her over and harrasing her. He stalked her regularly and even had traces run on peoples license plates whenever she was over at their home. A grotesque violation of the powers trusted to him. You want my advice, if you read some more laws there is a clause that states you can carry when you are in fear of your life. DO NOT **** AROUND WITH YOUR MOMS LIFE, GET HER TRAINING AND A GUN AND **** THE STATE |
#21
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Yes, the obvious, have her apply for a CCW. A domestic is gold almost anywhere for just cause.
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#22
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I think he already said she was turned down.
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John -- bitter gun owner. All opinions expressed here are my own unless I say otherwise. I am not a lawyer and this is not legal advice. |
#24
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I've been witness to domestic violence issues. Your mom won't have any time to grab a set of keys, unlock a lockbox, load a mag, chamber a round, and shoot before the attacker lands a blow. Most attacks take place inside of 21 feet , and at that distance even a 65 year old man can cover the gap in 1.5 seconds. A 250lb guy tried to assault me from a distance of 21 feet last year, and I had to literally run backwards during the draw to keep distance. That's with a loaded pistol , safety off & a hot chamber! In the remote event of a spree shooter, your mom is best advised to get the heck out of dodge as Plan #1. Im not trying to deflate your intentions, but the laws in your state are quite clear on the point that unlicensed people are not permitted to be armed with a ready to employ weapon!. Note, theres a serious drawback to LUCC-and it is that the weapon cannot be physically controlled by the owner at all times. A gun on the hip that's concealed is mighty hard to seize. Purses and bags are stolen all the time, however. And then we come to the social costs. Your mom's friends might wonder why she's carrying this locked box everywhere. Normal people don't carry black boxes with locks on them everywhere , and laypeople will not be impressed when she says it contains a weapon! Even a lie doesn't help, because a locked box is a natural object of curiosity. All of that verbiage is to say, LUCC is like kissing your sister-you deal with serious drawbacks in exchange for a nigh-worthless benefit.
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The more prohibitions you have, the less virtuous people will be. The more subsidies you have, the less self reliant people will be. -Lao-Tzu, Tau Te Ching. 479 BCE The 1911 may have been in wars for 100 years, but Masetro Bartolomeo Beretta was arming the world 400 years before John Browning was ever a wet dream. |
#25
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http://www.bagmaster.com/cart/56/Fan...Belt+Packs.htm bagmaster on a belt with simple two combo lock with unloaded auto loading pistol, loaded mag in off hand pocket or pouch, practice, practice, practice while running away from the 'threat'. Have other options like spray and or taser available. Read "how to own a gun and stay out of jail".
Contact the CGF regarding her denial, she sounds like an EXCELLENT plaintiff for a future case once case law is established. Consider moving to a Kern County residence for a LTC (doesn't mean she can't still spend time where she's at).
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False is the idea of utility that sacrifices a thousand real advantages for one imaginary or trifling inconvenience; that would take fire from men because it burns, and water because one may drown in it; that has no remedy for evils except destruction. The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws of such a nature. They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. -- Cesare Beccaria http://www.a-human-right.com/ Last edited by Liberty1; 11-16-2012 at 6:55 PM.. |
#26
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She needs to move and change jobs if the threat is real. Who won't do anything; the police or the DA? If the police are talking her out of criminal reports call a supervisor and make complaints. Call the DAs office and make complaints. Push for prosecution etc...
ROs are just pieces of paper as we all know. She needs to change her life so he can't find her sadly.
__________________
False is the idea of utility that sacrifices a thousand real advantages for one imaginary or trifling inconvenience; that would take fire from men because it burns, and water because one may drown in it; that has no remedy for evils except destruction. The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws of such a nature. They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. -- Cesare Beccaria http://www.a-human-right.com/ |
#29
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HOW MANY MISDEMEANORS/WEEK DOES A PERSON COMMIT
If the pistol is registered to her, and if your mom is not a known gang member, loaded CCW is a misdemeanor on a first offence. I’m just sayin………………………… I’m not giving legal advice here and IANAL, but If I truly feared for mom’s safty…………………….?
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May all your enemies be on full-auto Jeff Cooper
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#30
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Judged by 12 or carried by 6....Considering the DV and 3 restraining orders, I'd take those odds. Plus, as mentioned, first offense is a misdemeanor. This is what I would do, can't really give advice to break the law.
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#31
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Try this one: http://www.511tactical.com/All-Produ...tol-Pouch.html
with: http://www.amazon.com/Master-Lock-46...ks+for+luggage There is a small zipped pocket that allows to hide the lock so your ULCC does not draw any attention. It is relatively easy to draw from. And if you see that something serious is about to start you can always decide reduce your drawing time by discretely removing the lock or even loading the gun. It all depends on the situation.
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Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote. Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790) Last edited by vladbutsky; 11-17-2012 at 5:57 AM.. |
#32
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Thanks. |
#33
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^ At least someone gets it. If she's worried about the legalities she's not afraid of him enough to start packin'.
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#34
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*FACTORY-CERTIFIED ARMORER AT YOUR SERVICE IN SACRAMENTO, ALSO AR-15 WORK/ YUGO M59/66 SKS NIGHT SIGHTS REPLACEMENT - 916-516-7380* |
#35
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May all your enemies be on full-auto Jeff Cooper
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#36
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Nice, but no dice
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If moving is an option, go to Arizona for constitutional-carry. |
#37
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Look what this miserable state drives people to
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If it wasn't for that factor, I would have to agree that illegal carry is the most practical solution. But as I pointed out, that is off the table due to the circumstances. No doubt something the OP already took into account. Yep, ULCC is the only option for carrying a firearm as long as she remains in California. Last edited by gunsandrockets; 11-17-2012 at 10:50 AM.. Reason: typo |
#38
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__________________
May all your enemies be on full-auto Jeff Cooper
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#39
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There seem to be folks here that have the most fertile imaginations when thinking up reasons why something won’t work but are totally clueless to help figure out how to make it work.
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May all your enemies be on full-auto Jeff Cooper
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#40
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What would be the appropriate level of training and who gets to determine that? You, me, Obama, or the Brady Campaign? How would we trust those that set the training requirements are free from ulterior motives?
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** 3 Rules of Skeet: Head on the gun, eye on the target, and proper lead M1a - If you can see it, you can hit it Friends don't let friends vote demorat |
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