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  #81  
Old 08-20-2014, 2:33 PM
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More so than our current secularism, I support the form of secularism that the founders founded the nation on. "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" means I get to practice my religion in public, as well as private. I don't have to shut up about it. I can freely vote and elect politicians who share my values and beliefs without fear of "offending" anyone. Conversely, the government cannot tell me what religion I have to be or sponsor any religion. In fact there isn't much government at all. Enough to keep us from harming each other and not enough to do harm to us. Which means that the people would have to be self disciplined, and honor their obligations to each other. Not decide that everyone owes them something. I have not seen in history where this has happened anywhere except for the first 100 years of America. A place where Biblical principals put forth by Puritans and Presbyterians were the overwhelming majority. Not secularists. Everywhere on this earth that I see secularists reign there is tyranny. Yes that includes modern Europe.
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  #82  
Old 08-20-2014, 3:58 PM
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Originally Posted by RAMCLAP View Post
More so than our current secularism, I support the form of secularism that the founders founded the nation on. "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" means I get to practice my religion in public, as well as private. I don't have to shut up about it. I can freely vote and elect politicians who share my values and beliefs without fear of "offending" anyone. Conversely, the government cannot tell me what religion I have to be or sponsor any religion. In fact there isn't much government at all. Enough to keep us from harming each other and not enough to do harm to us. Which means that the people would have to be self disciplined, and honor their obligations to each other. Not decide that everyone owes them something. I have not seen in history where this has happened anywhere except for the first 100 years of America. A place where Biblical principals put forth by Puritans and Presbyterians were the overwhelming majority. Not secularists. Everywhere on this earth that I see secularists reign there is tyranny. Yes that includes modern Europe.
You seem to be confusing the concept of secular philosophy with anti-religious philosophy, or at least not aware that a religious person can easily support secularism in the rule of law. Because the above reads as pure cognitive dissonance, you appear to simultaneously support the Enlightenment's secular philosophy for governmental structure and yet claim that the people who instituted that government didn't adhere to it (non-secularists wrote a secular Constitition???). Further it makes no sense that you'd embrace the secular reasoning on which we can enjoy our personal religious freedom and yet brand the people who espouse it as spreading tyranny wherever they go.

Secularism is neutral towards religion, instead focusing solely on rationalism for its philosophical basis. It isn't anathema to religion but simply a parallel line of thought which people such as the Founding Fathers had no problem reconciling.
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  #83  
Old 08-20-2014, 5:00 PM
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You are aware that the French Revolution was "Enlightened". The Russian Revolution, Chinese, Cuban... All secularist. If you want to accuse someone of cognitive dissonance, you should look in the mirror. Those secularists sure love them some religion and freedom.
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  #84  
Old 08-20-2014, 5:04 PM
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Originally Posted by ArmedJackal View Post
So when we built our nation on the genocide of the native Americans and the hundreds of years of enslavement, selective breeding, rape and murder of African Americans.... That was guided by the bible? I thought Jesus was more about loving your neighbor as your brother, giving away your possessions and helping the poor.

If you think Jesus would have approved of the tactics our countries founder's used to conquer America... With all due respect, I think you need to re-read the New Testament. His message was love, not subjugation through violence.
You're funny, nation was not built on genocide nor the hundreds of years of enslavement. Liberals say the silliest things. Makes you wonder why they all have the same left leaning America was evil history lessons.
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  #85  
Old 08-20-2014, 9:44 PM
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Originally Posted by RAMCLAP View Post
You are aware that the French Revolution was "Enlightened". The Russian Revolution, Chinese, Cuban... All secularist. If you want to accuse someone of cognitive dissonance, you should look in the mirror. Those secularists sure love them some religion and freedom.
I believe that the "enlightenment" Brando spoke of has roots going back to Galileo and his fight with the roman catholic church during the Inquisition, not communist despots. Galileo was jailed as a heretic because he proved things via science like the fact that we rotate the sun, not the other way around. He challenged long held beliefs (apparently backed by scripture in 1st Chronicles and in Psalms that stated the earth was the center of the universe) and for that he was imprisoned for the remainder of his life.

There are many great things about religions, they provide a great moral structure for families and communities, feed the hungry and heal the sick. That is a wonderful thing. You must also consider that at the end of the day it is just men leading other men, and sometimes for selfish means.

Is their a God, a Creator of everything we are, were and will be? I personally believe that. Many others here do not and that is okay with me. Thats one of the reasons I love this country so much and carried a rifle and a ruck for it far from home.
I think that the more we learn about the natural world thru science points directly to a grand design, but when men follow other men based on unproven ideals or interpretation of old words on paper I think that it is your God given duty to question the end goal of the philosophy, not just its history.

And just a side note, in case you didnt know, the Russian Revolution was heavily funded by Prussian (germany) empire to destabalize the Eastern front during WW1. I think that is pretty "enlightening".

Last edited by 11bravo1p; 08-20-2014 at 9:49 PM..
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  #86  
Old 08-20-2014, 10:59 PM
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nation was not built on genocide nor the hundreds of years of enslavement.
Ignoring history, are we?
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  #87  
Old 08-21-2014, 12:35 AM
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Originally Posted by colossians323 View Post
You're funny, nation was not built on genocide nor the hundreds of years of enslavement. Liberals say the silliest things. Makes you wonder why they all have the same left leaning America was evil history lessons.
so how exactly did we get the land from the Indians?
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  #88  
Old 08-21-2014, 6:05 AM
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Originally Posted by RAMCLAP View Post
You are aware that the French Revolution was "Enlightened". The Russian Revolution, Chinese, Cuban... All secularist. If you want to accuse someone of cognitive dissonance, you should look in the mirror. Those secularists sure love them some religion and freedom.
That'd be the Age of Enlightenment, but have fun arguing semantics. You don't really seem interested in having an honest discussion at this point, you just keep shifting the topic farther afield when direct questions are asked or rebuttals offered up by anyone who partially disagrees with you. You've gone from accusing others of building strawmen for pointing out the patently obvious topic suggestion of theocracy to making odd assertions on the basis of our governmental structure, then to attacking the Enlightenment's secular philosophy which espouses religious freedom and now you're linking 20th century marxist revolutions to 18th century liberalism? Thread derailment complete, I suppose.
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  #89  
Old 08-21-2014, 6:59 AM
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You keep speaking of "Secularism" . Secularism, Secularism. So, I gave you the history of "Secularism". Then you go off on a tangents about how it doesn't mean what it means. You defended a post about Puritans at Plymouth. The founders were Christian and not Secularists but you still argue they were. I said I was against state religion and you again call me a theocrat. You simply have no credibility. You are correct. I have no further interest in arguing with someone who replaces historical facts with ad hominem attacks.
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Old 08-21-2014, 10:42 AM
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Originally Posted by RAMCLAP View Post
You keep speaking of "Secularism" . Secularism, Secularism. So, I gave you the history of "Secularism". Then you go off on a tangents about how it doesn't mean what it means. You defended a post about Puritans at Plymouth. The founders were Christian and not Secularists but you still argue they were. I said I was against state religion and you again call me a theocrat. You simply have no credibility. You are correct. I have no further interest in arguing with someone who replaces historical facts with ad hominem attacks.
And now you're confusing who is posting what in this thread.

- I never mentioned anything about Puritans at Plymouth, that'd be someone else entirely.

- You never gave any history lessons on secularism nor do you seem to have a firm grasp of its limited meaning. Just as you and others correctly pointed out that Christian = / = theocrat, neither does it mean one can't be a secularist. Your faith doesn't define your preference in state government and secular = / = anti-religious.

- Nobody called you a theocrat, though you were asked to explain how bringing up theocracy when discussing the guidance of a government by religion was a strawman (an assertion you forwarded).

- Asking questions / refuting assertions aren't ad hominem.




Having discussions of faith isn't for everyone, you have to maintain a grip on your rationality and know that questions aren't attacks but the cornerstone of greater mutual understanding. You're killing this thread by reacting poorly to direct questions and reviewing historical facts.
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  #91  
Old 08-21-2014, 1:59 PM
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Originally Posted by mossy View Post
so how exactly did we get the land from the Indians?
most of it was bought

http://www.u-s-history.com/pages/h1049.html
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Old 08-21-2014, 2:01 PM
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Originally Posted by bigmike82 View Post
Ignoring history, are we?
Oh, I thought we were talking about American history. What history did you think I was ignoring? I have no problem talking about the history that you would like to talk about, not ignoring, you just haven't made any historic points yet
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  #93  
Old 08-21-2014, 5:08 PM
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No offense intended but you are not stating true facts. That is misinformation or at least intentionally incomplete information.

This is a nice summary. It contradicts your above statements.

http://www.churchhistory101.com/docs...ment-Canon.pdf
Hi ArmedJackal... the link you provided is interesting, but it isn't the best summary on the topic and MUCH pertinent and important information is left out in that summary. As I've mentioned before, the manuscript evidence for the historicity of the Bible, and in particular the "New Testament Canon", is voluminous and the study of it fills libraries full of information. In addition to manuscript evidence, the historicity of the Bible is also confirmed through extant writings preserved in archaeological and ecclesiastical research. The Bible is the best documented book in the history of the world.

Regarding the date of the acceptance of the "New Testament canon" by the early church, I'd like to ask you to consider an early Christian named Polycarp. Polycarp (who lived approx. 70 until approx. 155 A.D. when he was martyred for being a Christian) was taught first-hand by the apostle John (human writer of 5 of the 27 books of the New Testament), which means Polycarp lived within one generation's time of the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ. All that to say that studying Polycarp's known writings is studying EARLY church history. His known writings document that he accepted (via his quoting from them) 2/3 of the books of the NT canon as Scripture. Those 18 books form the vast majority of the text of the NT canon, and if you add in Irenaeus' (who was taught first-hand by Polycarp) testimony in his known writings you have clear evidence that the overwhelming bulk of the NT canon was accepted by the very EARLY church. The extant writings bear evidence that the very early church considered 23 (and possibly 24, depending on what exactly one passage of Irenaus' writings mean) of the 27 books of the NT canon as part of what we now refer to as the NT canon. It is worth further noting that they may have accepted all 27 books; we simply don't know about the latter few because we don't have references to them in their writings.

The entire NT canon is supported by very early extant writings. Just because the 27 books of the NT canon hadn't been bound into one volume (or rather, just because we don't currently have evidence that they were bound together into one volume), does not mean the early church didn't accept and make use of the NT canon very early on.

I'll refer you to an interesting table on the page located at this link: http://www.ntcanon.org/table.shtml. You'll note that the column headings are "church fathers" (horrible and inaccurate term - that's why I put it in quotes) - and that these "church fathers" include both faithful Christians (e.g. Polycarp and Irenaeus) and heretics (e.g. Marcion and Valentinus).
What's interesting is that you will note overwhelming support from early Christian writers via their extent writings for the VAST majority of the NT canon; equally interestingly, you'll note VERY LITTLE support for the non-canonical books as Scripture in the known writings of the non-heretical early "church fathers".

There's lots more that could be written on the subject, but if you're really interesting in studying the historicity of the Bible, there is a world of good scholarship out there. What's interesting is that, if you embark on such a detailed study, you may note that many modern-day supposed-"scholars" who attempt to discredit the historicity of the Bible like to quote "church fathers" who were heretics, instead of these "scholars" quoting then-contemporaneous, faithful followers of Christ. Unfortunately, many folks fall into believing their assessments, simply because they aren't personally familiar with the quoted folks. It would be similar to this scenario: if you wanted to find study the historicity of the Koran, going and reading the writings of a 7th or 8th century Hindu about the Koran. Such an action wouldn't be prudent, except to note that the Koran did exist. Such an action wouldn't add to the detailed study of the historicity of the Koran, though - but that is basically what many modern "scholars" are now doing in regards to attempting to discredit the historicity of the NT canon. If you really wanted to study the historicity of the Koran, it would be more wise to go and read the writings of an 8th century Muslim.

The bottom line is that the validity of the historicity of the Bible is very well established; those that don't accept it generally either haven't studied the subject for themselves or else end up quoting people who's lives and beliefs they're unfamiliar with.

Last edited by Not a Cook; 08-21-2014 at 5:11 PM..
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  #94  
Old 08-21-2014, 5:55 PM
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I'd like to add some interesting historical quotes from some of our nation's "Founding Fathers" regarding the discussion several of you are having about whether this nation should be a theocracy or a nation based on principles of secularism. (As as aside, I'd also like to note that after reviewing this thread I'm not sure everyone here is using the same working definitions for either secularism or theocracy, and that may contribute to some confusion in this definition.)

- "Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people."
quote from John Adams to the Officers of the First Brigade of the Third Division of the Militia of Massachusetts, 1798.1

- "It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here."
from The Trumpet Voice of Freedom: Patrick Henry of Virginia, p. iii.

- "The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence, were ... the general principles of Christianity, in which all those sects were united, and the general principles of English and American liberty, in which all those young men united, and which had united all parties in America, in majorities sufficient to assert and maintain her independence. Now I will avow, that I then believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God; and that those principles of liberty are as unalterable as human nature and our terrestrial, mundane system."
from a letter from John Adams to Thomas Jefferson, 28 June 1813.

- "Government has no right to hurt a hair on the head of an atheist for his opinions. Let him have a care of his practices."
from a letter from John Adams to John Quincy Adams, (16 June 1816). Adams Papers (microfilm), reel 432, Library of Congress. James H. Hutson (ed.), The Founders on Religion: A Book of Quotations. Princeton, NJ: Princeton University Press, 2007, p. 20

- "While we give praise to God, the Supreme Disposer of all events, for His interposition on our behalf, let us guard against the dangerous error of trusting in, or boasting of, an arm of flesh ... If your cause is just, if your principles are pure, and if your conduct is prudent, you need not fear the multitude of opposing hosts.
"What follows from this? That he is the best friend to American liberty, who is most sincere and active in promoting true and undefiled religion, and who sets himself with the greatest firmness to bear down profanity and immorality of every kind.
"Whoever is an avowed enemy of God, I scruple not to call him an enemy of his country."
from a sermon by John Witherspoon (one of the signers of the Declaration of Independence) at Princeton University, "The Dominion of Providence over the Passions of Men," May 17, 1776.

There are many, many more such quotes from the "Founding Fathers" that demonstrate that, although not all the "Founding Fathers" were "men of faith", they firmly intended that this nation should be a republic founded upon biblical principles. That is not to say that they intended this nation only for Christians - far from it! They considered everyone's right to choose and practice their own faith as sacred, but the principles upon which this nation was to be governed were to be Judeo-Christian principles.
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  #95  
Old 08-21-2014, 6:08 PM
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The founding fathers attempted to found a nation based on what I call "Universal Ethics". Some of these are found in the Christian Bible - and some of them are not. ALL of them can be found in non-Biblical sources.

One particular religion's BOOK wasn't - and isn't - of concern.
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Old 08-21-2014, 6:41 PM
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The founding fathers attempted to found a nation based on what I call "Universal Ethics". Some of these are found in the Christian Bible - and some of them are not. ALL of them can be found in non-Biblical sources.

One particular religion's BOOK wasn't - and isn't - of concern.
I do not believe that there is such a thing as "Universal Ethics". For example, the "ethics" espoused by the Bible contrast sharply with the ethics espoused by the Koran. Christ taught us to love our enemies and do good to them that hate us (ref. Luke 6:27); in contrast, Mohammed taught his followers to heavily tax and even kill Christians and Jews wherever they find them (Koran 9:5, 2:191-2, 9:29, etc.). There is no reducing the "ethics" espoused by Christianity and the "ethics" espoused by Islam into a single set of "Universal Ethics" because they fundamentally disagree with one another. Christianity teaches that each individual has the right to believe what they want; Islam teaches that each individual has the right to follow Allah or else be heavily taxed and/or murdered. These basic teachings are fundamentally opposed to one another.

This is not to say that there are not "ethics" in every religion (and also outside of "religion" altogether), but the religions of the world do not agree on any single, universal set of ethics. If they did, the world just might be a friendlier place, overall.

The extant documents left by the Founding Fathers show that the majority of them professed to be Christians, and those that did not, generally wrote and/or spoke that they intended to found this nation upon Christian principles. Remember, the "Founding Fathers" were a relatively highly-educated bunch; they were familiar with many "world religions", yet the record bears that they repeatedly refer to Christianity and Judaism and Judeo-Christian principles whenever they discuss the ideals upon which this nation was founded.
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Old 08-21-2014, 7:11 PM
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Because they were christians doesn't mean they were theocrats and in drafting the Constitution the way they did, with an emphasis not on religious authority but on individual liberty and religious freedom, shows that they were guided more by the ideals of the Enlightenment than by biblical scripture.
Actually, it shows they were guided by the Bible. The Bible teaches individual liberty, freedom, and responsibility, does it not?

Isn't it historically "interesting" that the European Enlightenment immediately followed the Protestant Reformation, in which reformation the masses were encouraged to search the Scriptures and told that each person was individually responsible for their eternal destiny? As I recall, many, many historians (both Christian and secular) argue that, without the Reformation, their wouldn't have been an Enlightenment. The two may not be so disjointed as your quote above makes them appear.

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Again, I'll point out that most of the Ten Commandments would be unconstitutional.
You wrote "most of the Ten Commandments would be unconstitutional". I'm trying to figure out what you meant. They don't look unconstitutional to me. Can you please clarify? For reference, below is a list of the "Ten Commandments" as found in Exodus 20:1-17 (NKJV):

"And God spoke all these words, saying:

2 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
3 “You shall have no other gods before Me.
4 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.
7 “You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain.
8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.
12 “Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the Lord your God is giving you.
13 “You shall not murder.
14 “You shall not commit adultery.
15 “You shall not steal.
16 “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
17 “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor’s.”


Can you please clarify? What, exactly, about these commandments would be considered unconstitutional?
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Old 08-21-2014, 7:40 PM
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I do not believe that there is such a thing as "Universal Ethics".
Of course there are - Don't steal my stuff, for instance.

Differences between the various brands of Abrahamic monotheisms don't concern me as many of their "morals" can't be confused with ETHICS - and many are meaningless outside the context of their particular BOOK. Of course, they all claim to have invented "everything good", when the truth of the matter is they invented nothing. All so-called "Biblical", or "Islamic", or "Talmudic" ideas - both good and bad - were around for thousands of years before those particular BOOKs were written. The ideas will be around for thousands of years after the same BOOKs are dead and forgotten.

Last edited by Zorba; 08-21-2014 at 7:43 PM..
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Old 08-21-2014, 7:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Not a Cook View Post
"And God spoke all these words, saying:

2 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
3 “You shall have no other gods before Me.
4 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.
7 “You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain.
8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.
12 “Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the Lord your God is giving you.
13 “You shall not murder.
14 “You shall not commit adultery.
15 “You shall not steal.
16 “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
17 “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor’s.”


Can you please clarify? What, exactly, about these commandments would be considered unconstitutional?
Really?

I mean, REALLY?

Some of them are "Universal Ethics" - but many are peculiar only to JCI (AKA "Abrahamic") monotheisms and as such have no place in secular law.
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Old 08-21-2014, 8:14 PM
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Of course there are - Don't steal my stuff, for instance.

Differences between the various brands of Abrahamic monotheisms don't concern me as many of their "morals" can't be confused with ETHICS - and many are meaningless outside the context of their particular BOOK.
So... let's consider whether a few items would be considered "Universal Ethics":

- Don't murder? Most religions agree with that, but not all. For example, Islam teaches it is good to murder Christians and Jews who refuse to become Muslims. Therefore "don't murder" isn't a "Universal Ethic".

- Don't lie? Most religions agree with that, but not all. For example, Islam teaches "taqiyya" and under that teaching it is perfectly acceptable for a Muslim to lie to a Christian or Jew (or even his wife). Therefore, "don't lie" isn't a "Universal Ethic".

- Don't lust after your neighbor's wife? Most religions agree with that, but not all. For example, Islam allows and even encourages rape of the neighbor's wife, if that neighbor isn't a Muslim (because I suspect someone will claim this isn't true - ref. http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Mu...hs-mu-rape.htm and http://www.answeringmuslims.com/2014...pe-female.html for more details). Therefore, "don't lust after your neighbor's wife" isn't a "Universal Ethic".

Therefore, "don't murder", "don't lie", and "don't lust after your neighbor's wife" are NOT "Universal Ethics" because the second largest religion in the world teaches differently. There are many other such apparent conflicts between the ethics of the "world religions". These are not minor matters. They most definitely affect ethics.

See what I'm getting at here? Either a "Universal Ethic" isn't really universally accepted (note: in regards to each of the cases above, please keep in mind that a significant portion of the world's population is Muslim), or there are very few things that would qualify as a "Universal Ethic" and "Universal Ethics" would consist of very few (if any) ethics at all.

Last edited by Not a Cook; 08-21-2014 at 8:57 PM..
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Old 08-21-2014, 8:39 PM
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Really?

I mean, REALLY?

Some of them are "Universal Ethics" - but many are peculiar only to JCI (AKA "Abrahamic") monotheisms and as such have no place in secular law.
I suspect you misunderstood what I wrote, or I misunderstand what you wrote.

brando had written "...most <emphasis mine> of the Ten Commandments would be unconstitutional". Do you believe that a majority of the Ten Commandments are against the U.S. Constitution?

If so... let's consider them (I'll used simplified versions to keep this post short):

1. Don't serve other gods
2. Don't have idols
3. Don't take God's name in vain
4. Keep the Sabbath day holy
5. Honor your mother and your father
6. You shall not murder
7. You shall not commit adultery
8. You shall not steal
9. You shall not bear false witness
10. You shall not covet

I'd say nos. 5-10 are clearly not in conflict with the U.S. Constitution, correct? That's 60% (or a majority) of the Ten Commandments. Unless you can demonstrate that two of commandments 5-10 are unconstitutional, brando's statement is incorrect. I'd also argue commandments nos. 1-4 aren't in conflict with the Ten Commandments, as they're commandments (in context) given to those following the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. In other words, they're "religious" commandments. They weren't given to the whole world... just to those following the God of the Bible. That said, if you are an atheist, or a Shintoist, or a Buddhist, or a Taoist, or whatever, these aren't commandments to you. Given that, how can they be unconstitutional? Now, on the other hand, if the Ten Commandments were imposed on the U.S. population at large, that would be unconstitutional. But they're not, and that scenario is quite a leap from what was being discussed when brando originally made the comment.
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Old 08-21-2014, 8:43 PM
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The founding fathers attempted to found a nation based on what I call "Universal Ethics". Some of these are found in the Christian Bible - and some of them are not. ALL of them can be found in non-Biblical sources.

One particular religion's BOOK wasn't - and isn't - of concern.
whose universal ethics? See without a document like the bible, there are no universal ethics. Cannibalism is ethical in some parts of the world, orgies and selling kids in to the sex slave is ethical in some parts of the world. I ask again, whose universal ethics are you referring to?
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Old 08-21-2014, 9:13 PM
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whose universal ethics? See without a document like the bible, there are no universal ethics. Cannibalism is ethical in some parts of the world, orgies and selling kids in to the sex slave is ethical in some parts of the world. I ask again, whose universal ethics are you referring to?
So before the Bible there were no ethics and everyone killed raped and did other bad stuff?????? You know christianity was not the first religion to teach ethical behavior right?
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Old 08-21-2014, 9:14 PM
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Here's a news story that is a perfect example that "Universal Ethics" don't compute: http://www.businessinsider.com/richa...yndrome-2014-8.

A quote from the article: "Scientist Richard Dawkins apologized on Thursday for causing a "feeding frenzy" on Twitter after he said it would be immoral not to abort a fetus with Down's Syndrome."

If "the sanctity of life" isn't a "Universal Ethic", what is?

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Old 08-22-2014, 7:42 AM
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1. Don't serve other gods
2. Don't have idols
3. Don't take God's name in vain
4. Keep the Sabbath day holy
5. Honor your mother and your father
6. You shall not murder
7. You shall not commit adultery
8. You shall not steal
9. You shall not bear false witness
10. You shall not covet

I'd say nos. 5-10 are clearly not in conflict with the U.S. Constitution, correct?
I'd drop 5, 7, and 10 from your list.

I have no problems with people observing the Decalogue (I don't - "not my union") - but it would be wrong to impose anything but 6,8, and 9 on the general populace. These 3 are "Universal Ethics".

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Old 08-22-2014, 7:45 AM
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whose universal ethics? See without a document like the bible, there are no universal ethics. Cannibalism is ethical in some parts of the world, orgies and selling kids in to the sex slave is ethical in some parts of the world. I ask again, whose universal ethics are you referring to?
You are making the usual mistake of confusing "Morals" with ETHICS. Morals are rule-based, and vary from person to person, place to place, culture to culture. ETHICS are based on "who gets hurt?". Morals seem to be based on "who will be offended?" - which is why I have little use for morals, and attempt to live my life by ethics instead. I don't need BOOKs, in other words.

But I'm not saying living by ethics is easy - its not!

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Old 08-22-2014, 7:59 AM
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Here's a news story that is a perfect example that "Universal Ethics" don't compute: http://www.businessinsider.com/richa...yndrome-2014-8.

A quote from the article: "Scientist Richard Dawkins apologized on Thursday for causing a "feeding frenzy" on Twitter after he said it would be immoral not to abort a fetus with Down's Syndrome."

If "the sanctity of life" isn't a "Universal Ethic", what is?
He didn't say a word about "ethics", he used "morals".

As for abortion, people's OPINIONS shouldn't be legislated into the law of the land either. Christians seemingly are of the OPINION that life starts at conception. The reality is that no-one truly knows - there only a ton of strongly held OPINIONS on the subject. Thus, this needs to be left to each individual and their God(s).
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Old 08-22-2014, 8:00 AM
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So before the Bible there were no ethics and everyone killed raped and did other bad stuff?????? You know christianity was not the first religion to teach ethical behavior right?
They think they invented everything. I even read an article once that said that Christians invented hospitals!

Riiiiiiiight.
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Old 08-22-2014, 8:32 AM
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So before the Bible there were no ethics and everyone killed raped and did other bad stuff?????? You know christianity was not the first religion to teach ethical behavior right?
Of course I know that. The fact that there is natural law is evidenced by our creator.

This is why we know there are absolutes

Such as murder is wrong. Zorba is trying to say it is alright because some cultures such as in the middle east say it is alright.

IF you have no definition other than some sort of "univeralism" who is he to say murder is ethically wrong? In America we have began to legalize assisted murder. Is that some how ethically right?
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I dream about the day that the average would-be rapist is afraid to approach a woman who's walking alone at night. I dream of the day when two punks talk each other out of sticking up a liquor store because it's too damn risky.
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Old 08-22-2014, 8:33 AM
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They think they invented everything. I even read an article once that said that Christians invented hospitals!

Riiiiiiiight.

You're funny. I hope your posts are meant for laughs, because you are truly delivering
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I dream about the day that the average would-be rapist is afraid to approach a woman who's walking alone at night. I dream of the day when two punks talk each other out of sticking up a liquor store because it's too damn risky.
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Old 08-22-2014, 8:35 AM
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You are making the usual mistake of confusing "Morals" with ETHICS. Morals are rule-based, and vary from person to person, place to place, culture to culture. ETHICS are based on "who gets hurt?". Morals seem to be based on "who will be offended?" - which is why I have little use for morals, and attempt to live my life by ethics instead. I don't need BOOKs, in other words.

But I'm not saying living by ethics is easy - its not!
Actually you are confusing. if a cannibalistic culture views it as ethical, who are you to say it is not. that has nothing to do with morals
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Old 08-23-2014, 12:34 AM
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I rather live in a nation guided by Bible than not and here's why:

God laws and His word - Never change = Stable and Orderly.

Secular - Changeable laws based on human's opinion = Chaos and Unstable.
Examples: Federal says marijuana is illegal - States say it's legal.
School can take students to get an abortion w/o parents'
consent yet they need parents' consent to take tylenol.
Killing babies (abortion) in okay but capital punishment
is not!
Same sex marriage is legal but not polygamy!
Etc. etc. etc. etc.
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Old 08-23-2014, 8:06 PM
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I rather live in a nation guided by Bible than not and here's why:

God laws and His word - Never change = Stable and Orderly.

Secular - Changeable laws based on human's opinion = Chaos and Unstable.
Examples: Federal says marijuana is illegal - States say it's legal.
School can take students to get an abortion w/o parents'
consent yet they need parents' consent to take tylenol.
Killing babies (abortion) in okay but capital punishment
is not!
Same sex marriage is legal but not polygamy!
Etc. etc. etc. etc.
Dictatorships are also stable and orderly provided nobody deposes the despot, this is not a positive feature of government in and of itself. Reason and logic are also stable and orderly but survive past any single individual and, unlike religion, are open ended: things can be improved upon over time. This is the crucial ingredient of a republic which makes it work, as culture evolves so too can popular governance.

You're providing examples of things changing over time as though this is a bad thing. I'd remind you that over a thousand years of God's laws presided over countries having absolutely nothing to do with our idealized way of life and that this government was brought about through the Enlightenment's secular logic...not religious scripture.

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Old 08-23-2014, 8:35 PM
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The Enlightenment was a distinctly Christian en devour. Galileo was a Christian. Yes he had to deal with Rome. So did Martin Luther. Adam Smith the Father of free markets was a Prebyterian. Isaac Newton was a Puritan. So when we point out that the Founders were Christian we also are familiar with the fact that the Enlightenment founders were also quite Christian. It was we Christians that brought Europe out of the dark ages of medieval Roman thought. To pretend that it was non-Christian secularism is to deny historical.fact. Christians drove the Enlightenment and the founding of American liberty by it.
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Old 08-23-2014, 8:50 PM
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It was we Christians that brought Europe out of the dark ages of medieval Roman thought
If you want to be more specific, it was the Catholics. You're also ignoring the huge impact that Arabic philosophy and science had on the entire endeavor.

Also, Barang: Of course God's law changes. Compare the Old Testament with the New Testament. Do you really think Jesus would have supported the evil crap that God the Father did back in the day?
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Old 08-23-2014, 8:53 PM
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The Enlightenment was a distinctly Christian en devour. Galileo was a Christian. Yes he had to deal with Rome. So did Martin Luther. Adam Smith the Father of free markets was a Prebyterian. Isaac Newton was a Puritan. So when we point out that the Founders were Christian we also are familiar with the fact that the Enlightenment founders were also quite Christian. It was we Christians that brought Europe out of the dark ages of medieval Roman thought. To pretend that it was non-Christian secularism is to deny historical.fact. Christians drove the Enlightenment and the founding of American liberty by it.
You still don't seem to get it. You're intent on pitting two things against one another which can happily coexist, secularists can be Christian without logical conflicts. Why is this so hard a concept for you to digest?

Indeed the two philosophies parallel one another throughout our history, witness the many quotes of our Founding Fathers in this very thread. Politically speaking secularism is simply governing through logic and ethics rather than specific religious decree. There is absolutely nothing anti-religious about it.
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Old 08-23-2014, 9:21 PM
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If you want to be more specific, it was the Catholics. You're also ignoring the huge impact that Arabic philosophy and science had on the entire endeavor.

Also, Barang: Of course God's law changes. Compare the Old Testament with the New Testament. Do you really think Jesus would have supported the evil crap that God the Father did back in the day?
When I said Rome I meant Catholics. Headed by Rome. Sorry if I confused you.

I'm not ignoring anything. God's law did not change from New to Old Testament. God didn't do anything EVIL in the Old Testament. Jesus said,
Luke 13:1
Now there were some present at that time who told Jesus about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. 2 Jesus answered, “Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? 3 I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. 4 Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them—do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? 5 I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.”

All people have what God did to those unregenerate people in the Old Testament coming to them. In this age as well. I deserve it too. God does not do evil.

The question is, if anyone could come up with the Enlightenment then why didn't they? No one in history did except for Christians. For 500 years Augustine's thoughts drove the church. Then Aquinas's thought drove it for then next 500 years. Many tried to change things but the Papacy would not have it. Then Luther and Calvin came. They both said that their ideas were not theirs. They were merely re introducing the the thoughts of Augustine. Thanks to Gutenberg's printing press the ideas of the Reformation overcame Rome's rule on thought and the Renaissance exploded. The ideas of the Enlightenment flourished and guided the ideas of the Founders. Science and mathematics exploded. All new thought lead and guided by Christians.
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Old 08-23-2014, 10:44 PM
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God's law did not change from New to Old Testament.
Horse. Crap.

Look at the kosher standards. Before Jesus, you *had* to keep kosher. Christians are no longer bound by those laws.

Quote:
I deserve it too.
Bull. Crap. A topic that's been covered elsewhere, but no man alive today (with the sole exception of maybe Kim Jong Un) has done anything even close to the horrors inflicted by God in the Old Testament.
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Old 08-23-2014, 10:58 PM
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The idea that a morality that can change is "chaotic" is a common point made by the religious.

Really, if our morality didn't evolve, we'd still own slaves and still drown witches, have public executions, etc.

A secular morality isn't a completely subjective morality. There are many talks about secular morality that can explain why that's so.
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Old 08-23-2014, 11:21 PM
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Horse. Crap.

Look at the kosher standards. Before Jesus, you *had* to keep kosher. Christians are no longer bound by those laws.



Bull. Crap. A topic that's been covered elsewhere, but no man alive today (with the sole exception of maybe Kim Jong Un) has done anything even close to the horrors inflicted by God in the Old Testament.
bigmike82 - I believe we've touched on this elsewhere. Your claims above indicate that you are not familiar with many relevant parts of the Scriptures. For example, the Levitical dietary restrictions (which, by the way, differ from modern Kosher regulations) were commanded only to the Israelites, not to anyone else (including gentile followers of Christ). Acts 15 records how leaders of the early church met to discuss this very topic and exactly what is applicable to gentile Christians.

Christ claimed to be one with the Father (ref. John 10:30). They are in perfect agreement with one another. The Scriptures clearly teach that the God of the Old Testament is the same as the God of the New Testament. If you claim otherwise, you're incorrect.

The first step to accepting the gospel of Christ is for a person to admit that he or she has sinned against God and is deserving of death and destruction. This first step involves sincerely humbling oneself before God and admitting one's unrighteousness and total inability to please God. Until you come to that point, you won't understand the Scriptures and you specifically won't understand how truly gracious and kind God is toward humanity, both in the New Testament AND in the Old Testament.
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