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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel. |
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Why NRA failed with national address, per Alan Gura
Alan really breaks it down. They blew their chance to make gun rights a civil rights issue after listening to Alan in this video.
Which makes me wonder, why can't the NRA figure this **** out. http://youtu.be/P9rsVL-M5Jw (adding, I'm still a member and still urge people to be members) BUT WHAT THE HECK NRA, New messenger and knowledge of how pop culture reacts to scary things is needed.
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just happy to be here. I like talking about better ways to protect ourselves. Shop at AMAZON to help Calguns Foundation CRPA Life Member. Click here to Join. NRA Member JOIN HERE/ |
#2
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Dude the NRA has just begun the fight, they have been fighting for gun rights for 100 years I am sure they know what they are doing
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If you Are not behind us, then take your place in front of us" Devil Doc, Corpsman Up! Love My country and My fellow Vets R.I.P my brothers HM3 John D. House, HN Aaron A. Kent, HM2 Cesar O. Baez, HM3 Travis Youngblood, HM3 Christopher W. Thompson, HM2 Allan M. Cundanga Espiritu (True Heros) |
#3
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Why doesn't the NRA HIRE Mr. Gura?
Love the ending. God bless Mr. Gura.
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NO ISSUE / MAY ISSUE / SHALL ISSUE - LTC progress over time since 1986 |
#4
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NRA member Gun Facts PDF | Gun Safety Laws "You can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." -Robert Heinlein "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No man comes to the Father but through me." - Jesus in John 14:6 |
#5
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Oh please ...
As the often restated statement goes, "hindsight is 20/20". That's all Alan Gura is doing, giving hindsight. The truth is, and we all know this, the NRA is damned if they do, and damned if they don't. You can't have expected the NRA to come out and say anything that the anti's are going to accept during the emotional time after the CT shooting. |
#6
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The NRA leadership has done well for a very long time, and has been very effective since the Cincinnati revolt. I am not convinced that their leadership is prepared to operate effectively in a post Heller world.
This does not mean that we should abandon the NRA, but rather we should change the leadership to reflect today's challenges and opportunities. Regards, SwissFluCase
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"We don't discuss the governor's arsenal in detail" - Brown spokeswoman Elizabeth Ashford |
#7
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Without the NRA we would probably be all shooting singleshots or worse yet, slingshots. So many Calgunners are such whiners and forget what was done for them 5 mins ago...depressing on here sometimes...i want to believe, but ugh.... Ok, whining can proceed now.... |
#8
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Gura is absolutely right that the attack on video games and movies was stupid and little more than an "old guy" response. He's also right that the better approach would have been a rousing flag waving a civil rights and personal freedom speech. Where I partly disagree with Gura is that we need to empower teachers by allowing them to carry a concealed weapon.
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"Government is the great fiction, through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else." --FREDERIC BASTIAT-- Proud Life Member: National Rifle Association, the Second Amendment Foundation, and the California Rifle & Pistol Association |
#9
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"...That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government..." - Thomas Jefferson "Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people." - John Adams "A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the majority discovers it can vote itself largess out of the public treasury." - Alexis de Tocqueville Proud Contributing Member: |
#10
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Gura is absolutely correct in that trying to attack violent video games is seen by the anti gun crowd as "look, over there, someone else doing bad things".
Alan didnt give in at all and say "we need to ban assault weapons and magazines". You can have a firm position, and not give one inch without acting like Wayne did. It's almost as if the media knew wayne would do that, so they gave him this HUGE stage (EVERY single network I switched to that morning had his address) to let him come off like a loon on.
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just happy to be here. I like talking about better ways to protect ourselves. Shop at AMAZON to help Calguns Foundation CRPA Life Member. Click here to Join. NRA Member JOIN HERE/ |
#11
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Go Alan.
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"The California matrix of gun control laws is among the harshest in the nation and are filled with criminal law traps for people of common intelligence who desire to obey the law." - U.S. District Judge Roger T. Benitez |
#12
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Bull-Puckey!
I've played video games for a few decades now and I'll tell you for a FACT as each new generation of game comes out they are more violent, more graphic, the game play rewards more and more amoral actions and the people who say it has no influence are full of crap up to their brown eyes. The industry responds to what the market wants and as kids grow up 'stabbing the hooker to death so I don't have to pay her', and getting bonus points for it, they start looking for something 'edgier' because stabbing the hooker is just the norm. The original Texas Chainsaw Massacre was the most shocking, grotesque and graphically violent movie in history at the time of it's release. Now with all the slasher/torture/mutilation flicks kids are seeing Texas Chainsaw Massacre can be shown on public TV uncut! How much do Super Bowl commercials cost? Do you really think that people will pay tens if not hundreds of millions of dollars for 15-30 seconds of air time if it didn't affect and influence people? How many of the lying hypocrites telling us that their movies, TV shows or songs don't affect anyone have gone on to tell us as they win some award how proud they are that their art and talent has influenced so many people? The NRA didn't 'fail' and Wayne LaPierre didn't misspeak, he told the truth and even gun owners have hobby horses they are willing to blind themselves over.
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NRA Benefactor Life Member / CRPA Life Member / SAF Life Member Calguns.net an incorported entity - President. The Calguns Shooting Sports Assoc. - Vice President. The California Rifle & Pistol Assoc. - Director. DONATE TO NRA-ILA, CGSSA, AND CRPAF NOW! Opinions posted in this account are my own and unless specifically stated as such are not the approved position of Calguns.net, CGSSA or CRPA. |
#13
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just happy to be here. I like talking about better ways to protect ourselves. Shop at AMAZON to help Calguns Foundation CRPA Life Member. Click here to Join. NRA Member JOIN HERE/ |
#14
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Oh God,
Its the Conservatives vs Libertarians - again.
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"The California matrix of gun control laws is among the harshest in the nation and are filled with criminal law traps for people of common intelligence who desire to obey the law." - U.S. District Judge Roger T. Benitez |
#15
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Yeah, the conference was badly handled and exposed the deficiencies of the public face of the NRA.
Having said that, it's more important to be an NRA member now than ever. The stakes couldn't be higher, which is one of the reasons why folks are offering critiques for the NRA. |
#16
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Whether or not they did a poor job defending the 2A, the fact is, they did something. Do you think the press even listened or cared to listen to what the NRA had to say, let alone the fact that they already said they would not be entertaining questions? Last edited by NytWolf; 01-11-2013 at 2:39 PM.. |
#17
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Listen to him very closely.
He is criticizing how out of touch the NRA seems and how archaic they appear to a popular audience. Hindsight 20/20 sure but the NRA gave themselves ample time to have a more thoughtful response like the one Gura gave in this video. We need more polished speakers like Gura to represent us in the public eye. Although I still respect the NRA as leaders in our fight, their leaders seem to present a very polarizing picture at times. Could it have hurt them to have a woman speaking for them if not Gura? It would have softened the picture of the NRA as a bunch of old men fighting from a seemingly out of touch and OLD perspective.
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"When you get the (men) to the range, you just get the men. But when you bring the (women) to the range, you get the (whole family). And that's what's going to save our 2nd Amendment."--Dianna Liedorff "Since self-preservation is the 1st law of nature, we assert the...right to self-defense. The Constitution...clearly affirms the right of every American...to bear arms. And as Americans, we will not give up a single right guaranteed under the Constitution." --Malcolm X |
#18
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It's a mixed bag.
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Bill Wiese San Jose, CA CGF Board Member / NRA Benefactor Life Member / CRPA life member
No postings of mine here, unless otherwise specifically noted, are to be construed as formal or informal positions of the Calguns.Net ownership, The Calguns Foundation, Inc. ("CGF"), the NRA, or my employer. No posts of mine on Calguns are to be construed as legal advice, which can only be given by a lawyer. Last edited by bwiese; 01-11-2013 at 2:43 PM.. |
#19
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Obama's task force led by Biden is an even bigger joke. After 100's of years considering and implementing regulations aiming at reducing violence, suddenly a task force meets for a week or two, takes a couple of days of testimony and ouila! suddenly the solution is discovered and ready for implementation (starting next Tuesday). And I agree with Kes above. People don't think all of this carnage up on their own, the more examples one sees in the external world the more likely that scenario will pop into your mind. Look at Holmes "I am the Joker" and it is clear he intended to emulate the character and took actions that the character is portrayed as taking. |
#20
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Are many here saying that the NRA can't be criticized by our side, even constructively?
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"When you get the (men) to the range, you just get the men. But when you bring the (women) to the range, you get the (whole family). And that's what's going to save our 2nd Amendment."--Dianna Liedorff "Since self-preservation is the 1st law of nature, we assert the...right to self-defense. The Constitution...clearly affirms the right of every American...to bear arms. And as Americans, we will not give up a single right guaranteed under the Constitution." --Malcolm X |
#21
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WHAT? It's 2016 already? Elections? We lost again because we keep dividing the vote?
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NO ISSUE / MAY ISSUE / SHALL ISSUE - LTC progress over time since 1986 |
#22
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That means accepting certain risks—risks that can be partially mitigated by a functional civil right to bear arms.
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Matthew D. Van Norman Dancing Giant Sales | Licensed Firearms Dealer | Rainier, WA |
#23
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To my knowledge, there has yet to be a study that's cited any real kind of correlation between violent games or movies and more aggressive behavior in people. It hasn't been my personal experience, either. As a slightly off topic aside, "Killing a hooker so you don't have to pay her AND YOU GET BONUS POINTS" demonstrates a pretty clear disconnect in understanding from how modern games even work compared to older ones. |
#24
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Theoretically speaking, if you had replaced Wayne La Pierre's speech with Alan Gura's speech or something that he would have come up with, do you think the gun control agenda people would be swayed? Let's put this into perspective. Just for argument's sakes, let's put the gun control agenda at -10 (minus 10) on a number scale and put the NRA on +10 (plus 10). An equal compromise on both sides would bring the entire gun control argument to a 0 (zero). Now, knowing the pro gun control people is unlikely to budge, so their position stays at -10 (minus 10). Now to the million dollar question. Did La Pierre's speech move the NRA's position to any less than the +10 (plus 10) that they started? If Alan Gura had spoke in place of La Pierre, do you think the NRA's position would move to any less than +10 (plus 10)? |
#25
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Blaming video games is ignorant and completely out of touch.
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The player can do a lot of things in GTA because the game has a somewhat free-roaming structure. Does the fact that when given freedom in a game, the player can choose to do bad things surprise you? Hell, kids shouldn't even be playing GTA because the game is rated M. Why is the game's existence a problem for you, when it should be apparent that parents shouldn't let kids play those games in the first place? Or do you still subscribe to the mentality that "games are for kids" when the adult demography is incredibly huge? This new form of "blame the entertainment" rhetoric is getting REALLY old. Why am I even defending the First Amendment on a 2A forum? |
#26
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Time to invoke the Japanese idiom of "Shō ga nai"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shikata_ga_nai What's done is done. Unless someone plans on building a time machine, we need to move on and deal with it. |
#27
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Most schools are already far too prisonlike in nature. Anything that pushes them farther down that path wont help (not that all forms of armed presence would do that) Last edited by rkt88edmo; 01-11-2013 at 3:19 PM.. |
#28
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I think that we are doing a pretty good job of not letting the NRA go "gray". I'm 32, girlfriend is 26, many of the members here are in about the same age group as me, am I correct? We are youngish, play COD, and own guns..... and support the NRA.
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PRO PELLE CUTEM "Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just: that his justice cannot sleep forever"- Thomas Jefferson, 1785 Quote:
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#29
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I'm guessing you are referencing GTA with the hooker comment, that game is rated "M" and children shouldn't be playing it anyway. It's up to their parents to ensure that they don't.
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Last edited by mosinnagantm9130; 01-11-2013 at 3:22 PM.. |
#30
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First, I acknowledge Kestryl's disgust at violence in current games, as well as graphic torture pornography that we call movies. I don't play first person shooter games (although I appreciate the software engineering work that has went into them) for many reasons, their graphic nature a core one. I'd argue it isn't the stylized torture in Saw (never watched it, never will), but the "necessary evil" torture in 24 and movies like Taken that is most pernicious to society. I fell physically ill after watching the Taken torture scene: the real result would not have been a pin-point location but a tall yarn telling Neeson something that he wanted to hear, but that wasn't quite true (or even verifiable at all).
However, there are many legitimate reasons to display a torture scene in a movie: Pan's Labyrinth and even Reservoir Dogs have done this in a way that creates anti-torture opinions (people quoting Nice Guy Eddie during debates about this issue was actually useful: "if you beat this prick long enough, he'll tell you about the start of the Chicago fire"). Perhaps movie makers can agree that if a movie has a scene where torture yields useful information, it should be at least identified as such, so that parents could prevent their children's exposure to this morality if they so choose. Likewise, again, I can find plenty of justified examples of Violent Games as useful free speech -- in other words, I can make a moral (and not just a constitutional) case for both. It's up to the parents to inform themselves and decide (based on their child's development, mental health, academic performance, etc...) what games they should be allowed to play (I'll probably be "that dad" as my answer would be: any game you program yourself). Of course this doesn't touch on the point that "violent video games cause violence" is a statement akin to "conceal carry laws will lead to people shooting each other in bars": both make perfect sense to someone unfamiliar with the issue and both are utterly wrong. Facts simply don't agree with either of these sentiments: http://www.pbs.org/kcts/videogamerev...act/myths.html Practically speaking, I identify far more with Gura than I do with the NRA. However, I think Alan Gura may also be over-estimating how many principled liberals and libertarians there are: his arguments ring strong with the ACLU/EFF crowd (which includes me) that believes in principled individual rights, but disagrees with the proper size and scope of the government (liberals believing in a duty to provide a safety net, libertarians believing in a more minimal scope). However, there are just as many people calling themselves "liberal" or even "libertarian" (because there's no other political label applicable to them) who are more interested in equality aspect of gay-marriage (defending it on those grounds) and reproductive rights (which also have tangible societal benefits, beyond liberty or equality), disagree internally about the scope of the state (but generally based on "greater good" and not "duty to the poor" or "individual right to make choose" arguments) and don't mind the kind of Nanny-state that bans not wearing seat-belts (ACLU actually fought seat-belt laws in the 1999s on a principled stance -- they were some of the first laws that created unambiguously victimless crimes), transfat, sugary soda, and certain drugs. For them, the principled rights rhetoric doesn't mean much: I even know many who enjoy owning and shooting weapons, but just don't think ordinary civilians should own them. I am at a loss as to why that faction is rising in mindshare and how to best counter their arguments that seem to disregards rights of anyone but themselves. Last edited by strlen; 01-11-2013 at 3:42 PM.. |
#31
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Until you have solid evidence supporting your case, assigning blame to anything with the intent of restricting liberty is an inherently anti-liberty approach. Why do you think we're now having to fight for our most fundamental right? Look in the mirror. It's because there are millions of people out there who are taking the very same approach to guns that you are, here, with respect to video games. You of all people should understand the value and, yes, the risks, of the liberty of free speech. You can't pick and choose which rights you support and which ones you don't. They're a package deal, for if you can manage to take away the rights of someone else, they can turn around and take yours away as well, which is exactly what is being attempted at this very moment. Liberty itself is a package deal as well. Either take it or leave it.
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The Constitution is not "the Supreme Law of the Land, except in the face of contradicting law which has not yet been overturned by the courts". It is THE SUPREME LAW OF THE LAND, PERIOD. You break your oath to uphold the Constitution if you don't refuse to enforce unadjudicated laws you believe are Unconstitutional. The real world laughs at optimism. And here's why. |
#32
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Blaming video games for the acts of a madman makes no more sense than blaming guns.
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#33
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It needs to be made crystal clear to people that liberty is a two-way street, that what goes around comes around, and that they take away the liberties of others at their own peril. Finally, protection of liberty is precisely what this country was founded for: Quote:
Ask these people you speak of if they are truly interested in parting ways with the very foundational purpose of the country.
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The Constitution is not "the Supreme Law of the Land, except in the face of contradicting law which has not yet been overturned by the courts". It is THE SUPREME LAW OF THE LAND, PERIOD. You break your oath to uphold the Constitution if you don't refuse to enforce unadjudicated laws you believe are Unconstitutional. The real world laughs at optimism. And here's why. |
#34
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Sadly, that doesn't work as well as it should. A decade ago plenty of Second Amendment supporters were happy to cheer on the Administration as it trampled the Fourth and Sixth Amendments.
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#35
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What's most important is to the win the hearts and minds of the neutral parties. People who don't own guns, but still don't necessarily want them taken away. Ultimately, it's those people in the middle who are going to decide the direction this thing is going to go. |
#38
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His point was that there are some people out there that maybe could have been moved, not the hardcore anti-gun crowd, but some folks in the middle. The NRA probably did not successfully reach many of those people, and probably even alienated some... young gamers, for example. Quote:
I too would have liked to hear a more positive message about how "guns are about freedom" and "regular decent folks own and enjoy guns", instead of the suggestion that we all live in a war zone, where the bad guy is always coming with his guns, and especially without the blaming of video games and movies.
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pMcW |
#39
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The guys who say you can't have never actually attempted to engage such people in person. They remain huddled in their comfort zone, shaking their fists at the world.
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#40
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We need a big ****ing tent. |
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