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  #1  
Old 05-17-2018, 2:05 PM
danielkwong5 danielkwong5 is offline
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Default AR Maglock permanent install

I just received my AR Maglock and the instructions state to use red loctite on the magazine catch and to use a drill bit to out the hex head bolt. I'm assuming this is to make the fixed magazine configuration permanent, but do we really need to drill out the hex head? Or is red loctite alone sufficient? The bolt also protrudes from the magazine catch slightly, allowing the user to potentially remove it later with needle nose pliers, yet directions don't mention to shave that down to make it permanent.

California Code of Regulations Title 11, Division 5, Chapter 39 states:

Registration of Assault Weapons Pursuant to Penal Code Section 30900(b)(1); Who Must Register.

"Any person who, from January 1, 2001, to December 31, 2016, inclusive, lawfully possessed an assault weapon that does not have a fixed magazine, as defined in Penal Code section 30515, including those weapons with an ammunition feeding device that can be readily removed from the firearm with the use of a tool (commonly referred to as a bullet-button weapon) must register the firearm before July 1, 2018."

Is it considered readily removed if it requires a hex key to remove the bolt?
Or is it better to just drill out the head to eliminate any doubt that it is a fixed magazine?
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Old 05-17-2018, 3:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danielkwong5 View Post
but do we really need to drill out the hex head?
No. You may safely just use with the ARMagLock loctite'd in. If you get a malfunction and need to remove it to clear the malfunction, you are not "removing the magazine with a tool" because you are actually disassembling the firearm at that point. Plus the fact it's not a "bullet button" at all or anything similar to such. Reinstall the maglock device before continuing to fire.

No one is going to be such a dick about it as to say you have an "assault weapon" for the time the maglock is removed. Except well, perhaps internet trolls will. No RSO is going to give two ****s if you remove the maglock to clear a malfunction to make your firearm safe. Reinstalling the maglock before firing more rounds shows intent that you mean to conform to the "assault weapon" regulations.
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Old 05-17-2018, 4:32 PM
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Originally Posted by firefly416 View Post
If you get a malfunction and need to remove it to clear the malfunction, you are not "removing the magazine with a tool" because you are actually disassembling the firearm at that point.
That would be precisely what you are doing... using a tool to detach the magazine. As many times as I've read the regs I haven't seen a clause which states "The regs don't apply in the event you have a malfunction as long as you make it compliant once the malfunction has been cleared."

Truth is, nobody knows if not drilling out the allen head is 100% gtg or not. CA does not define the level of permanence required to comply with their ill-written regs; that and the DOJ doesn't approve/deny devices.
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Old 05-17-2018, 5:17 PM
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Originally Posted by apbrian112 View Post
That would be precisely what you are doing... using a tool to detach the magazine. As many times as I've read the regs I haven't seen a clause which states "The regs don't apply in the event you have a malfunction as long as you make it compliant once the malfunction has been cleared."

Truth is, nobody knows if not drilling out the allen head is 100% gtg or not. CA does not define the level of permanence required to comply with their ill-written regs; that and the DOJ doesn't approve/deny devices.
Interpret how you wish, I will interpret the way my lawyer advised. With a bullet button, the firearm remains completely assembled when you use your "tool". With a maglock, your tool is being used to disassemble. Stark enough difference for me.
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Old 05-17-2018, 5:40 PM
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Originally Posted by firefly416 View Post
Interpret how you wish, I will interpret the way my lawyer advised. With a bullet button, the firearm remains completely assembled when you use your "tool". With a maglock, your tool is being used to disassemble. Stark enough difference for me.
Genuinely curious, how does removing the maglock using a allen key disassemble the firearm? It wouldn't have a fixed magazine at that point; and if it has any AW features would be considered an AW.

What you describe is specifically described as an AW in the regs.
CA PC 30900(b)(1);
(m)...An AR-15 style firearm lacking a magazine catch assembly (magazine catch, magazine catch spring and magazine release button) constitutes a detachable magazine.

Here's a link if you wanted to review:
https://oag.ca.gov/sites/all/files/a...let-button.pdf

I hope your lawyer isn't charging you too much...

Last edited by apbrian112; 05-17-2018 at 5:49 PM.. Reason: added link to regs
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Old 05-17-2018, 7:52 PM
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Similarly, I've heard both of these perspectives before and it still leads to confusion as to what should be done to make the rifle compliant.

I understand how from a safety perspective it's better to leave the hex head so it can be easily fixed if there is a malfunction. However, I can see from a legal perspective how it would be better to drill out the hex head, and Dremel the bolt flat to remove any possibility of reasonably removing the bolt. Though even by doing this, you could always drill out the bolt also.
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Old 05-18-2018, 5:45 AM
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One thing about this ARMaglock being "permanent" business. Better hope you never have to remove your trigger group ever again. Because that arm blocks were the hammer pin/punch needs to move.
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  #8  
Old 05-18-2018, 5:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Ki6vsm View Post
One thing about this ARMaglock being "permanent" business. Better hope you never have to remove your trigger group ever again. Because that arm blocks were the hammer pin/punch needs to move.
i've been able to get it out without removing the arm. once you get the pin started in either direction you can pull it out fairly easily.
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Old 05-18-2018, 6:12 AM
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Originally Posted by apbrian112 View Post
Genuinely curious, how does removing the maglock using a allen key disassemble the firearm? It wouldn't have a fixed magazine at that point; and if it has any AW features would be considered an AW.

What you describe is specifically described as an AW in the regs.
CA PC 30900(b)(1);
(m)...An AR-15 style firearm lacking a magazine catch assembly (magazine catch, magazine catch spring and magazine release button) constitutes a detachable magazine.

Here's a link if you wanted to review:
https://oag.ca.gov/sites/all/files/a...let-button.pdf

I hope your lawyer isn't charging you too much...
By doing so, the user would have disassembled the magazine retention assembly rendering the feeding of Ammo incapacitated.

But I see has this can be debated. I went with the MagLatch and a couple of ejection port Ammo loaders instead.
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Old 05-18-2018, 7:22 AM
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Originally Posted by protohyp View Post
i've been able to get it out without removing the arm. once you get the pin started in either direction you can pull it out fairly easily.
Ah, good point. Obviously you'd want it to come out on the left side. So maybe a stubby little 'elbowed' tool, like a cut down Allen wrench would get things started behind the arm. Not much clearance to work with, but doable.

.

Last edited by Ki6vsm; 05-19-2018 at 6:47 AM..
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  #11  
Old 05-18-2018, 7:33 AM
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If you can remove the magazine without "disassembling the action", it's not a fixed magazine. Besides, why would anyone support a company like ARmaglock? Their history of intentionally misrepresenting their product goes a long way in proving their lack of morals and ethics.
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  #12  
Old 05-18-2018, 9:36 AM
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Originally Posted by MarikinaMan View Post
By doing so, the user would have disassembled the magazine retention assembly rendering the feeding of Ammo incapacitated.
This actually was actually hashed out in the bullet button days. The fact that it doesn't have a fixed magazine is the issue, not that it won't hold itself in there. I literally quoted the regs which state as much. Not sure how that would be debatable, but sure.
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Old 05-20-2018, 9:00 PM
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Let's not confuse the tool needed to operate a bullet button with the tool(s) required to install or remove an ARMaglock.

If you are really paranoid about creating an AW while removing an ARMaglock just fully disassemble the upper and lower before doing so.

Lastly the permanence point is the key. Pretty well any level/version/state of legality that a rifle is in, can be turned into any other state with tools. One can't write a law to cover all uses of all tools for all manufacturing, assembly, maintenance and disassembly stages of the life of a rifle. Heck a milling machine is a tool... Even with the screw of an ARMaglock loctited and the head drilled out, a milling machine could carefully mill into the rifle and allow the magazine to be released. Or more simply one could just use a drill and an easyout to remove the drilled/loctited screw. Those are certainly tools in the general sense.

The actual DOJ regulation language is, ""Detachable magazine” means any ammunition feeding device that can be removed readily from the firearm without disassembly of the firearm action or use of a tool.""

Seems pretty clear the whole "tool" topic is based around redefining a bullet button rifle as having a detachable magazine. Unfortunately, "readily" is wide open to interpretation. Is the use of a hex key at your workbench "readily"? Is carrying and using a hex key to disassemble an ARMaglock during any sort of normal operating environment of a rifle in the field "readily".

Me personally, I am comfortable running an ARMaglock without a drilled head and only with very low strength blue loctite (as a form of good common sense rather than out of any sense of fear or compliance). There simply is no way to convert a normal magazine release to a fixed magazine than can not be undone by tools. Although I would not want to give too much if any "common sense" credit to LE or the courts/DOJ, I still believe an ARMaglock installed without a drilled head and without loctite still easily meets the "common sense" requirements of a fixed magazine. Undoubtedly others will disagree.
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  #14  
Old 05-20-2018, 9:59 PM
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Using a milling machine is a bad example. What is being debated, is not whether it is possible to remove the magazine ever (like through drilling it out), it is whether you actually do so. It is also illegal to put a short barrel upper onto a rifle lower. I have both, and could easily do so. But until I actually do, there is no crime. Having an armaglock neither loctited in, nor having the bolt drilled out, I think does not meet the definition of fixed magazine. Loctite alone I think is good enough. But if you choose to remove the armaglock and drop the magazine, do so at your own peril because you certainly just removed the magazine without disassembly of the action, which is clearly not legal. Doesn't matter if you have a doublefeed and can't disassemble. The fact armaglock advertises this as a "feature" is disingenuous. If you're gonna run a fixed magazine, use a factory 10 rounder so you can drop the floorplate out.
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Old 05-21-2018, 5:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by apbrian112 View Post
This actually was actually hashed out in the bullet button days. The fact that it doesn't have a fixed magazine is the issue, not that it won't hold itself in there. I literally quoted the regs which state as much. Not sure how that would be debatable, but sure.

The original question was, can the OP leave his Maglock serviceable.

The portion of the law you quoted is about the an AR15 rifle configured without a mag catch being defined as an AW.

I pose that shooting with a maglockd rifle and an AR without a mag catch are different matters.

Last edited by MarikinaMan; 05-21-2018 at 5:07 AM..
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Old 05-21-2018, 6:47 AM
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That's a fresh and interesting perspective there samp2. All this "permanent" stuff makes me think a little of, say, emissions controls equipment on cars/trucks. Sure, owners aren't supposed to "remove" that stuff and drive around, but this does not mean that the parts can't be unbolted and set aside for engine servicing and so on. The laws didn't require the automakers to weld all the parts onto the engines to make them more tamper-proof.
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Old 05-21-2018, 7:04 AM
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Originally Posted by CSACANNONEER View Post
...Besides, why would anyone support a company like ARmaglock? Their history of intentionally misrepresenting their product goes a long way in proving their lack of morals and ethics.


This.
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Old 05-21-2018, 10:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarikinaMan View Post
The portion of the law you quoted is about the an AR15 rifle configured without a mag catch being defined as an AW.

I pose that shooting with a maglockd rifle and an AR without a mag catch are different matters.

That's because I was responding to Firefly, not the OP. (which is why I quoted him and not the OP)
What he was suggesting then, and still contends was that it was legally ok to remove the maglock to clear failures by simply unscrewing the ARMaglock while the rifle is together. I quoted the PC because following his advice would result in that rifle becoming an AW.

Of course shooting with a maglocked rifle and a mag-catchless rifle are different matters.

And we could all argue until our faces turned blue about what is permanent or not but until someone gets popped and it's ruled on in court we won't know.
Swamp and SBO both bring up good points in regards to tools, common sense, advertising by ARMaglock, etc. but once again, we don't know.

Last edited by apbrian112; 05-21-2018 at 10:22 AM..
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Old 05-21-2018, 10:32 AM
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Not sure of current instructions but ARmaglock instructions used to read:
Step 10
Quote:
Using a 1/8" drill bit, drill out socket of the cap screw head. Thiss will ensure it is permanently installed and cannot be removed with a hex wrench or any other tool.
This could bite you in court. I know at least one well know CA gun lawyer who has said it should be drilled out.
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Old 05-21-2018, 11:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BONECUTTER View Post
Not sure of current instructions but ARmaglock instructions used to read:
Step 10


This could bite you in court. I know at least one well know CA gun lawyer who has said it should be drilled out.


If that lawyer can point out EXACTLY in the regulations that state ANY of the maglock devices need to be permanent I’d like to see it.

AR maglocks sell in other states believe it or not and maybe their regulations require permanence thus step 10 in the instructions but California doesn’t.

The funny thing is that AR Maglock has only one bolt people are losing it over but Cross Armory has 3 bolts that can release the magazine.




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Old 05-21-2018, 12:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by protohyp View Post
If that lawyer can point out EXACTLY in the regulations that state ANY of the maglock devices need to be permanent I’d like to see it.

AR maglocks sell in other states believe it or not and maybe their regulations require permanence thus step 10 in the instructions but California doesn’t.

The funny thing is that AR Maglock has only one bolt people are losing it over but Cross Armory has 3 bolts that can release the magazine.
The law is pretty clear in the PC as well as the Regs:

Quote:
For purposes of this section, “fixed magazine” means an ammunition feeding device contained in, or permanently attached to, a firearm in such a manner that the device cannot be removed without disassembly of the firearm action.
Sure the law doesn't say a maglock device needs to be permanent ...but the mag does. How can you convince a court that your magazine is permanently attached to, a firearm in such a manner that the device cannot be removed without disassembly of the firearm action when you can do so with an Allen Wrench (tool).

The cross would not meet the letter of the law either unless the bolts are drilled out. But ...Hey, I'm not a Lawyer...just a guy who doesn't have 10K for a legal defense and I have no desire to spend one night in jail.
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Old 05-21-2018, 12:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BONECUTTER View Post
The law is pretty clear in the PC as well as the Regs:







Sure the law doesn't say a maglock device needs to be permanent ...but the mag does. How can you convince a court that your magazine is permanently attached to, a firearm in such a manner that the device cannot be removed without disassembly of the firearm action when you can do so with an Allen Wrench (tool).



The cross would not meet the letter of the law either unless the bolts are drilled out. But ...Hey, I'm not a Lawyer...just a guy who doesn't have 10K for a legal defense and I have no desire to spend one night in jail.


Points well taken but unless a roll pin is, for lack of a better term, “welded” to the bolt catch receiver holes those devices such as cal catch, juggernaut, 33.3 Tactical etc would not be compliant either because a roll punch is just as much of a tool as an Allen wrench is.

I think even a bad lawyer can convince a jury that the regulations are vague and unclear (depending on the county you live of course!)

Here is my take.

I have been pushing like crazy the Kingpin with the AR Maglock device to law enforcement. Many are endorsing it as well and are purchasing it for their rifles. Many are choosing the other numerous systems out there for their own personal rifles because off duty they are citizens just like us.

The more they recognize systems out there and the more they’re educated on what is available the less likely they’re going to harass you. They’ll just say “heck man. I love the juggernaut system”!

Just ask Mark Haynie when police officers uninformed about the bullet button cost him some money and some grief.

They really should be our focus because they could essentially be our first line of defense. That includes Rangers for those that shoot on BLM and USFS land







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Old 05-21-2018, 1:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by protohyp View Post
Points well taken but unless a roll pin is, for lack of a better term, “welded” to the bolt catch receiver holes those devices such as cal catch, juggernaut, 33.3 Tactical etc would not be compliant either because a roll punch is just as much of a tool as an Allen wrench is.

I think even a bad lawyer can convince a jury that the regulations are vague and unclear (depending on the county you live of course!)
As the bolt catch devices could also be ruled not compliant.

Even a bad Lawyer will charge you 10K. Is it worth it to not damage the screw on a $50.00 product.

People can make what ever choice they want, and need to do what they are comfortable with. I'd rather not give advice that could have someone get in trouble.

Selling similar products does not put you in the unbiased category.

Spreading the word to LEO's helps but many don't even shoot unless they are qualifying.

Until court cases clarify I will continue to advise using as much caution as people can.
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Old 05-21-2018, 1:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BONECUTTER View Post
As the bolt catch devices could also be ruled not compliant.

Even a bad Lawyer will charge you 10K. Is it worth it to not damage the screw on a $50.00 product.

People can make what ever choice they want, and need to do what they are comfortable with. I'd rather not give advice that could have someone get in trouble.

Selling similar products does not put you in the unbiased category.

Spreading the word to LEO's helps but many don't even shoot unless they are qualifying.

Until court cases clarify I will continue to advise using as much caution as people can.


LEO’s don’t need to shoot. Remember what helped Mark Haynie is that the department realized they needed to open their eyes and be educated regarding a device that everyone questioned and then the bulletins went out regarding that particular device which was the bullet button. If any of these Maglock devices are already used by LEO you can’t convince me that that isn’t a good thing


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Old 05-21-2018, 1:42 PM
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If the intent of these stupid regs/laws are to slow down reloads, then removing the bolt on the ARmaglock mag catch arm is probably one of the slowest solutions out there.

I could load 10 rounds though the ejection port into a fixed mag faster.
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Old 05-21-2018, 1:46 PM
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I still dont get the attraction of using any of these “Mag Lock” compliant devices, further reducing the overall functionality of an AR, in order to retain “evil features”, multilating a perfectly good receiver, and becoming a potential legal test case. What happens when you get a mis feed and your BCG is half way into your buffer tube. You can clear it but it’s a major PIA. Is a flash hider that much more beneficial than a brake. Are you constantly adjusting your stock length. Is a pistol grip that much better than some of the newer compliant grips (resurgent or sparrow). Just go featureless and be done with it. Cost effective, legally acceptable, and inexpensive.
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Old 05-21-2018, 4:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Let's not confuse the tool needed to operate a bullet button with the tool(s) required to install or remove an ARMaglock.

If you are really paranoid about creating an AW while removing an ARMaglock just fully disassemble the upper and lower before doing so.

Lastly the permanence point is the key. Pretty well any level/version/state of legality that a rifle is in, can be turned into any other state with tools. One can't write a law to cover all uses of all tools for all manufacturing, assembly, maintenance and disassembly stages of the life of a rifle. Heck a milling machine is a tool... Even with the screw of an ARMaglock loctited and the head drilled out, a milling machine could carefully mill into the rifle and allow the magazine to be released. Or more simply one could just use a drill and an easyout to remove the drilled/loctited screw. Those are certainly tools in the general sense.

The actual DOJ regulation language is, ""Detachable magazine” means any ammunition feeding device that can be removed readily from the firearm without disassembly of the firearm action or use of a tool.""


Seems pretty clear the whole "tool" topic is based around redefining a bullet button rifle as having a detachable magazine. Unfortunately, "readily" is wide open to interpretation. Is the use of a hex key at your workbench "readily"? Is carrying and using a hex key to disassemble an ARMaglock during any sort of normal operating environment of a rifle in the field "readily".

Me personally, I am comfortable running an ARMaglock without a drilled head and only with very low strength blue loctite (as a form of good common sense rather than out of any sense of fear or compliance). There simply is no way to convert a normal magazine release to a fixed magazine than can not be undone by tools. Although I would not want to give too much if any "common sense" credit to LE or the courts/DOJ, I still believe an ARMaglock installed without a drilled head and without loctite still easily meets the "common sense" requirements of a fixed magazine. Undoubtedly others will disagree.
I see your problem. You are using outdated and obsolete information. The actual California Penal Code says "fixed magazine" and includes a definition of what a "fixed magazine" is.

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If that lawyer can point out EXACTLY in the regulations that state ANY of the maglock devices need to be permanent I’d like to see it.
There isn't a permanency requirement. However, there is a requirement that the magazine can NOT be removed without disassembling the action. If you leave an AR Maglock in such a way that it can be removed, the magazine can also be removed without disassembling the action. Thus, it would be an AW in CA.
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Old 05-21-2018, 4:30 PM
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I still dont get the attraction of using any of these “Mag Lock” compliant devices, further reducing the overall functionality of an AR, in order to retain “evil features”, multilating a perfectly good receiver, and becoming a potential legal test case. What happens when you get a mis feed and your BCG is half way into your buffer tube. You can clear it but it’s a major PIA. Is a flash hider that much more beneficial than a brake. Are you constantly adjusting your stock length. Is a pistol grip that much better than some of the newer compliant grips (resurgent or sparrow). Just go featureless and be done with it. Cost effective, legally acceptable, and inexpensive.
Going to a fixed magazine is fine for mall ninja range toys but, for practicality, going featureless has been the best way to do it for the last 14 years.
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Old 05-21-2018, 6:18 PM
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Going to a fixed magazine is fine for mall ninja range toys but, for practicality, going featureless has been the best way to do it for the last 14 years.
I would say that less than 1% of competitors using AR's that Ive seen in CA, actually use a featureless rifle. BB's abound.

Mall ninjas are also competing these days with fixed mag rifles. Thats all Im willing to say about that.
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Old 05-21-2018, 7:13 PM
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I would say that less than 1% of competitors using AR's that Ive seen in CA, actually use a featureless rifle. BB's abound.

Mall ninjas are also competing these days with fixed mag rifles. Thats all Im willing to say about that.
If the targets were shooting back, what would you rather have: a proper pistol grip or a functional mag release? Having tried out the latest crop of featureless grips, It’s not even a question to me.
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Old 05-21-2018, 7:17 PM
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Interpret how you wish, I will interpret the way my lawyer advised. With a bullet button, the firearm remains completely assembled when you use your "tool". With a maglock, your tool is being used to disassemble. Stark enough difference for me.
The law specifies that a semiautomatic rifle without a magazine release does not have a fixed magazine.

Jeez guys... this new law is more clear than any AW law than we have had before and people still can't understand plain language.

If you remove your magazine catch while the upper is still attached, you have manufactured an assault weapon.
That is not the only way to clear a malfunction.
Ditch the 10/20 and 10/30 magazines and use a magazine that allows you to easily drop the floorplate.
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Old 05-21-2018, 7:26 PM
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Come on folks, let's be honest, where do or better yet where can you draw a firm line in the sand differentiating between a a hex wrench, an Easyout, a drill and a milling machine? You can't. You could try "hand tools" but a drill and easyout are hand tools and can remove a drilled (and loctited) hex head screw very quickly and effectively. There is no way to modify a firearm such that the magazine is irreversibly attached to the rifle in such a manner that the device cannot be removed without disassembly of the firearm action. We get right back to the fact that any process of welding, screwing, gluing, etc, can all be reversed with some tool(s). However, the law says permanently, not irreversibly (just where I wrote irreversibly above).

If you dig around there is actually a pretty thorough discussion here on calguns about the difference between permanent and reversible. I don't recall the exact context but pretty sure it was not SB 880/PC §30515. Permanence just means to be present at all times, it does not mean non-reversible. It actually strikes me that ARMaglocks advise on drilling/loctiting stems from this very confusion in terms. Perhaps it is just an overabundance of caution since the DOJ rarely "blesses" and compliance type products. There is nothing wrong with an overabundance of caution, and in general, I do try to follow the letter of the law. I only say "try" because the laws are pretty well always open to some interpretation due to being vague.

@broadside and Blade Gunner: Solutions such as Kingpin+ARMaglock basically take us back to the intended speed and functionality of the AR-15 platform BEFORE the bullet button! "Evil" features such as pistol grips/foregrips/muzzle brakes have definitive functions and certainly tons of preference. One look at this video should be all it takes to convince one that we are now way better off with the innovation sparked by these terrible new laws as compared to the days of bullet buttons. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hhk6d8v2jY

Last edited by swamp2; 05-21-2018 at 8:03 PM..
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Old 05-22-2018, 3:20 AM
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While i think the kingpin/armaglock combo is absolutely epic, when transporting/in public areas/storage im still leaning towards the DFM so there's absolutely no questions
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Old 05-22-2018, 4:42 AM
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If the targets were shooting back, what would you rather have: a proper pistol grip or a functional mag release? Having tried out the latest crop of featureless grips, It’s not even a question to me.
Come and join a match. They’re very informative.
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Old 05-22-2018, 11:06 AM
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Come on folks, let's be honest, where do or better yet where can you draw a firm line in the sand differentiating between a a hex wrench, an Easyout, a drill and a milling machine? You can't. You could try "hand tools" but a drill and easyout are hand tools and can remove a drilled (and loctited) hex head screw very quickly and effectively. There is no way to modify a firearm such that the magazine is irreversibly attached to the rifle in such a manner that the device cannot be removed without disassembly of the firearm action. We get right back to the fact that any process of welding, screwing, gluing, etc, can all be reversed with some tool(s). However, the law says permanently, not irreversibly (just where I wrote irreversibly above).

If you dig around there is actually a pretty thorough discussion here on calguns about the difference between permanent and reversible. I don't recall the exact context but pretty sure it was not SB 880/PC §30515. Permanence just means to be present at all times, it does not mean non-reversible. It actually strikes me that ARMaglocks advise on drilling/loctiting stems from this very confusion in terms. Perhaps it is just an overabundance of caution since the DOJ rarely "blesses" and compliance type products. There is nothing wrong with an overabundance of caution, and in general, I do try to follow the letter of the law. I only say "try" because the laws are pretty well always open to some interpretation due to being vague.

@broadside and Blade Gunner: Solutions such as Kingpin+ARMaglock basically take us back to the intended speed and functionality of the AR-15 platform BEFORE the bullet button! "Evil" features such as pistol grips/foregrips/muzzle brakes have definitive functions and certainly tons of preference. One look at this video should be all it takes to convince one that we are now way better off with the innovation sparked by these terrible new laws as compared to the days of bullet buttons. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hhk6d8v2jY
The video shows him closing the action without a magazine being inserted into the magwell. Each time he does that, he is manufacturing an AW.
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Old 05-22-2018, 11:30 AM
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Yeah there will be some fun test cases...

Honestly I see some LEOs overlooking the hex screw cause their quick first impression will be them unable to release the mag unless the action is disassembled.

But if I were an LEO and trained that new regulations require disassembly of the action and no longer by use of a tool to remove the magazine, Id see that hex screw and wonder if that allows magazine removal without disassembling the action, it does.

Don't get me wrong Im all for pushing the limits and trying to get around the bogus policies of this state, that's why I love the kingpin, but I realize that there is risk in fighting back. Can see the say the kingpin doesn't disassemble the action enough and let you go through the court process.
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Old 05-22-2018, 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Lightstrider View Post
Yeah there will be some fun test cases...

Honestly I see some LEOs overlooking the hex screw cause their quick first impression will be them unable to release the mag unless the action is disassembled.

But if I were an LEO and trained that new regulations require disassembly of the action and no longer by use of a tool to remove the magazine, Id see that hex screw and wonder if that allows magazine removal without disassembling the action, it does.

Don't get me wrong Im all for pushing the limits and trying to get around the bogus policies of this state, that's why I love the kingpin, but I realize that there is risk in fighting back. Can see the say the kingpin doesn't disassemble the action enough and let you go through the court process.
true but multiple pins accomplish the same thing that the kingpin does which is 'minimal' opening.
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Old 05-22-2018, 11:40 AM
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Originally Posted by CSACANNONEER View Post
The video shows him closing the action without a magazine being inserted into the magwell. Each time he does that, he is manufacturing an AW.


i'm glad you pointed that out because you're ABSOLUTELY WRONG.



I am actually closing the upper after i've inserted the magazine when i'm reaching forward to put my support hand back on the front of the rifle.



you just dont see it because i'm so damn fast because of the system!



Its obvious you dont understand how this pin system works so dont get ahead of yourself.

and this is exactly what i'm doing in the video.
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Last edited by protohyp; 05-22-2018 at 12:00 PM..
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Old 05-22-2018, 12:21 PM
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i'm glad you pointed that out because you're ABSOLUTELY WRONG.



I am actually closing the upper after i've inserted the magazine when i'm reaching forward to put my support hand back on the front of the rifle.



you just dont see it because i'm so damn fast because of the system!



Its obvious you dont understand how this pin system works so dont get ahead of yourself.

and this is exactly what i'm doing in the video.
Out of curiosity, have you guys confirmed that the rifle doesn’t function when the Kingpin is engaged? I wouldn’t want to be the one to do it, but it seems important. If the BCG can make it into the buffer tube, it seems like it could cycle (although maybe not reliably).
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Old 05-22-2018, 12:23 PM
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no it will not go into the buffer tube because the back of the BCG hits the buffer tower much like all the other minimal opening systems.
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