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Centerfire Rifles - Semiautomatic or Gas Operated Centerfire rifles, carbines and other gas operated rifles.

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Old 04-02-2018, 7:20 PM
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Default Thordsen Gen II vs. Sparrow Dynamics vs. Strike Industries grip comparison

This is going to be a looooong post with lots of photos. It's going to be spread out over several posts because the forum only allows five photo uploads per post. I’ll try to offer as much useful information and opinion as I can, but feel free to ask questions. Other than that, I hope everyone enjoys the reviews and I hope my opinions help a few people looking at converting to featureless. As with any of my opinions, your satisfaction is guaranteed or your money back.

For a really comprehensive list of featureless products, check out MudCamper's compilation thread.


Flavors of Featureless: A Taste Test

The featureless bug bit me at the beginning of the year and I’ve collected and tried numerous featureless setups in just three short months. I thought I’d offer my opinions and photos of three of my favorite setups to help others who might be on the fence about their featureless configuration.
We’re going to take a look at three featureless grip/stock/safety setups today:
  1. The Thordsen Customs Gen II stock with Seekins Precision ambi safety
  2. The Sparrow Dynamics Grip with Sparrow Dynamics ambi safety and Magpul ACS/Strike Industries Stock Stop
  3. Strike Industries Megafin grip with Strike Industries Strike Switch

GENERAL THOUGHTS
I’ve also tried multiple kydex-wrapped grips, the Strike Industries Simple Grip, and the Monsterman grip, among others. The three configurations above were my favorite, but I’m still tinkering with the combos.

Out of all the different parts I’ve tried, I wanted to specifically call out the Sparrow Dynamics ambi safety for exceptional design. The idea is so simple that I’m really surprised no one has made such a versatile and configurable safety before. In my opinion, it’s an evolutionary step forward from the 45- and 60-degree short throw safeties currently on the market. I was really, really impressed with how simple it made my manual of arms.

I prefer a configuration where my trigger finger has access to as many operational controls as possible so that my off hand is free to manipulate everything else in my workspace and environment. I run Magpul B.A.D. levers on all my ARs for that reason. The Sparrow safety takes that one step further by making it much easier to manipulate the safety as well.

I have big hands. I wear a size “L” glove when I buy nitrile work gloves at Harbor Freight. Here is a photo of my hand next to a Sharpie and a can of beans for reference:

DSC_6509.jpg

Thordsen Customs Gen II stock with Seekins Precision ambi safety:

DSC_6482.jpg

DSC_6488.jpg

I really like the hand ergonomics of this setup. As you can see from the pics, it puts my trigger finger in an optimal position relative to the trigger. My thumb can still easily operate the left side safety lever, so an ambi safety isn’t a necessity like other featureless setups. I will eventually replace the bullet button with an extended mag release on this gun. My finger juuuuuust gets on the mag release right now. Thordsen Customs even includes a dehorned end plate to improve comfort as you choke up on your grip. This is a company that’s really paying attention to the little details.

DSC_6501.jpg

I’ve seen some complaints about how thin the grip area is, but I don’t think it’s any thinner than your standard A2 grip. You can always build up the grip with tennis racquet wrap or put on Talon grip tape. For guys shooting 3-Gun, or for anyone using this for home defense, weapon retention and control is going to be a really big consideration when selecting a featureless grip. The Thordsen stock provides the highest level of retention and control, in my opinion.

DSC_6502.jpg

The narrow cheek weld and lack of adjustability in the stock was a drawback, but not a dealbreaker. I think cheek weld will really come down to user preference, but I prefer wider stocks like the Magpul STR and ACS. The length of pull is the same as an A2 stock, which isn’t optimal for guys who like their nose to the charging handle. Look to the Gen III Thordsen if you want more LOP adjustability.

It is the most expensive configuration in this review, at $144 for the enhanced Thordsen stock kit and $40 for the Seekins safety when buying from the manufacturers. Cost will be a major factor for folks with multiple rifles to convert.

See next post for the Sparrow Dynamics Grip with Sparrow Dynamics ambi safety and Magpul ACS/Strike Industries Stock Stop.

Last edited by Wombats Are Dangerous; 04-02-2018 at 9:27 PM..
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Old 04-02-2018, 7:26 PM
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Default Sparrow Dynamics Grip - Sparrow Dynamics ambi safety - Strike Industries Stock Stop

Sparrow Dynamics Grip with Sparrow Dynamics ambi safety and Magpul ACS/Strike Industries Stock Stop:

DSC_6479.jpg

Sparrow Dynamics is a relatively new entry into the compliance product industry, but these guys have clearly done their homework. Their grip has great ergonomics, using a very similar grip angle to the Thordsen stock, but the wider design really fills the hand nicely. It was easy to reach all of my controls with my trigger finger, although my thumb had some trouble actuating the safety. This isn’t a problem if you use the Sparrow ambi safety, but more on that later.

DSC_6481.jpg

Aesthetically, I think this is as close as you can come to the look of a standard AR grip. The FDE is a spot-on match to the Magpul stock. My only complaint, and this is really minor, is that my massive hands rubbed against the castle nut, and one of the notches chewed up my thumb joint. Two quick layers of electrical tape took care of that comfort issue. Smaller, skinnier hands won’t have this problem. I’m also using a Thordsen dehorned end plate on this gun, which further helps with comfort.

DSC_6498.jpg

What I REALLY want to talk about is the Sparrow Dynamics ambi safety. This is simply an amazing safety design. It starts by offering 90- or 60-degree throw, visibly marked on the shaft to take all the guesswork out of installation. Next, the lever mount design provides next-level versatility by allowing SIX different mounting positions for each lever—at 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, and 12 o’clock. As you can see in the photos, I have my right-side lever mounted at the 4 o’clock position. When I’m ready to shoot, a quick upward flick of my trigger finger turns it off and I’m off to the races!

DSC_6497.jpg

Sparrow Dynamics really put some good thinking in this safety. All of the edges are nicely rounded for comfort. The sides of the levers have ribbing to improve tactile feel. The design is really aesthetically pleasing. It’s my new favorite ambi safety and I’m going to put it on ALL of my ARs, including the other two lowers in this comparison.

I only had one complaint and that’s the color. The hard anodizing didn’t match the Magpul FDE I already had on the gun, so I paid a visit to Gunfighter Tactical on Miramar Rd. and they gave it a fresh cerakote along with the other controls on the lower. Some people might not mind the color variation in the anodizing, but I thought it should be pointed out.

DSC_6499.jpg

I’m using a Strike Industries Stock Stop to “pin” my Magpul ACS in place. It’s a cheap, quick fixed stock solution that lets you keep your existing adjustable stock and it’s practically idiot proof. You just cut on the pre-marked lines on the Stock Stop. The default stock position in their instructions is position five of a six-position buffer tube. If I remember correctly, this will be A1 length when using a Magpul MOE carbine stock. Feel free to correct me if I’m mistaken.

This entire setup is the middle ground when you factor affordability, ergonomics, and aesthetics. The Sparrow Dynamics grip is $44.95 while their ambi safety will run you $59.95. That is $100 cheaper for the grip compared to the Thordsen, and $20 more expensive for the safety when compared to the Seekins. I will say, however, that the extra $20 is well worth the extra versatility for the Sparrow safety. I think it’s THAT good.

The Strike Industries Stock Stop ran me $6.95 at Gunfighter Tactical in San Diego (IIRC).
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Old 04-02-2018, 7:33 PM
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Default Strike Industries Megafin grip with Strike Industries Strike Switch

Strike Industries Megafin grip with Strike Industries Strike Switch:

DSC_6494.jpg

DSC_6491.jpg

Of these three setups, this is my least favorite. This particular rifle is only ever shot off a bench, either on a rest or on bags, so I thought a fin grip or kydex-wrapped grip would be comfortable, since I shoot benchrest with my thumb up anyway. I just haven’t gotten comfortable with this grip.

My sense is that this is built for a very specific hand size. The front strap feels thin in my hands, and the left side of the grip has a ridge that stops your fingers from reaching past the grip profile. Longer fingers may need to actually grip the ridge instead of the checkered grip. This ridge forces the palm of my hand further back on the right side, with the fleshy part of my palm sitting well back on the fin. The backstrap slopes towards the fin at a 45 degree angle, and while it is ribbed, I don’t think it provides a good grip on the gun. I think a sharper 90-degree corner to the backstrap would lead to a firmer grip. I might try adding some rubber Talon grip to see if that helps improve the feel.

DSC_6506.jpg

I never use the thumb rest. It’s a great idea in theory, but the vast majority of ambi safetys on the market will rub against your thumb or push your thumb out to the edge of the rest. I don’t use the rest for my particular use case, but a lot of people will likely look at the Megafin thinking the thumbrest will improve grip control. I’m going to purchase another Sparrow ambi safety and try out various lever positions with the Megafin. I have a strong feeling that the Sparrow safety will really help thumbrest fin grips shine by getting that lever out of the way.

DSC_6508.jpg

Speaking of safeties, I’m a big fan of the Strike Switch. It’s FAST. Lightning fast. I think competition shooters will find a lot to like about this safety. Lots of purchase area and long levers provide plenty of leverage to make this the most effortless safety I’ve ever tried. This safety was really, really great with non-thumbrest fin grips like the Strike Industries Simple Grip, or a munkeeboi-wrapped grip. Push down on the rear lever to turn it off, and push forward on the front lever to turn it on. It offers both 60- and 90-degree throw, and comes with end caps for the shaft if you want to install it as a traditional single-lever safety. This kit lets the user set this up as a single left or right safety, or with both levers as an ambi safety. Great thinking on Strike’s part.

The aesthetics will turn a lot of traditionalists off, but I really don’t mind it because it improves safety operation so much. I’ve gotten a lot of curious questions at the range about it and quite a few compliments from people who have fondled it on my gun.

DSC_6504.jpg

I am currently pondering how I want to change up this particular configuration. I’m leaning toward installing a Sparrow ambi safety to go with the Megafin. If that fails, I may reinstall the Strike Switch and go back to the Strike Industries Simple Grip, which I think is the better grip from their lineup. There’s just not enough ergonomic improvement in the Megafin to warrant its higher price over the Simple Grip.

The Strike Industries Megafin will run you $39.95, while the Strike Switch is $65.95. My honest two cents is that if you have multiple guns to convert, and you prefer the fin-style grip, go with the Strike Ind. Simple Grip for $9.95.

Last edited by Wombats Are Dangerous; 04-03-2018 at 12:34 PM..
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Old 04-02-2018, 10:12 PM
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Very nice write up and feedback, much appreciated..

I’m looking for the most comfortable and as close to a grip as one would have sans pistol grip- would like to get feed back on the grip wraps.

I only have exprience with the Exile Machine grip fin which is great, but quite thick in the area my palm/thumb would rest on the shelf. The SI simple grip to me is bang for the buck, but doesn’t allow my palm to sink as deep into the grip and my thumb hanging doesn’t feel comfortable..just my experiences and I have small hands - Operating room Glove size 7.5 with size 8 over, double gloved or just mostly medium nitrile examination gloves
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Old 04-03-2018, 7:15 AM
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Good write up. I love that JD bronze lower you have there. What happened to that Spikes lower? It looks like it came out of the trash.

So far that Thordson grip feels best to me, too bad you can't cut it off and use a normal stock. I don't like the stock/grip combo design.

I also have Sparrows here and so far they are the winner of the bunch. It was the only option my wife could operate as she has small hands.
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Old 04-03-2018, 7:20 AM
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Awesome comparison.

I think the Thordson is the most comfortable but I wish they made a version with a shorter length of pull. I usually have my Magpul CTR fully collapsed when I'm wearing all my gear. The Thordsen looks like it would be the same length as my CTR on the 2nd notch.
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Old 04-03-2018, 8:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vg247 View Post
I’m looking for the most comfortable and as close to a grip as one would have sans pistol grip- would like to get feed back on the grip wraps.

I only have exprience with the Exile Machine grip fin which is great, but quite thick in the area my palm/thumb would rest on the shelf. The SI simple grip to me is bang for the buck, but doesn’t allow my palm to sink as deep into the grip and my thumb hanging doesn’t feel comfortable..

Kydex grip wraps will give you a similar experience to the Simple Grip, IMO. I found that none of them really offer enough space for my palm to wrap the grip. My palm inevitably ends up resting against the fin. You might want to contact munkeeboi on this forum and see if he can custom mold you a kydex wrap for your favorite pistol grip and request a little bit more offset for whatever hand you use.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimi Jah View Post
Good write up. I love that JD bronze lower you have there. What happened to that Spikes lower? It looks like it came out of the trash.
LOL! I guess that's sort of what I was going for. The cerakote scheme is supposed to look like an old, beat-up copper penny. It looks great when the rifle is assembled. One of the guys at Gunfighter Tactical has his personal Glock done in this scheme and it's totally the tits. I had to try it on a black rifle. They really nailed the copper oxidation. I'll try to post a photo of the whole rifle next time I'm downstairs at my safe.

https://www.facebook.com/GunfighterT...type=3&theater


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Originally Posted by teflondog View Post
I think the Thordson is the most comfortable but I wish they made a version with a shorter length of pull. I usually have my Magpul CTR fully collapsed when I'm wearing all my gear. The Thordsen looks like it would be the same length as my CTR on the 2nd notch.
Check out their Gen III stock. It uses spacers to adjust LoP. Their website lists the Gen II with a 14" LoP which is A2 LoP. I'm not sure what LoP at the second notch with a CTR is, but if you're shooting nose-to-charging-handle, that's most likely shorter than A2 LoP, unless you're a giraffe with gorilla arms.
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Old 04-03-2018, 8:38 AM
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Also, thanks for the compliments, gents! I had a lot of fun writing this.
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Old 04-03-2018, 8:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wombats Are Dangerous View Post
Check out their Gen III stock. It uses spacers to adjust LoP. Their website lists the Gen II with a 14" LoP which is A2 LoP. I'm not sure what LoP at the second notch with a CTR is, but if you're shooting nose-to-charging-handle, that's most likely shorter than A2 LoP, unless you're a giraffe with gorilla arms.
Oh cool! It looks like the Gen III stock fits the bill. I like having a short 11.5" LOP. Thanks!
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Old 04-03-2018, 9:44 AM
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Fantastic detailed review! And great photos too. It is nice in a review to get hand size and shape for ergonomics reference.

I like how the FDE Cerakote turned out on our safety, the Odinworks extended mag release, and the B.A.D. lever... and how well it all matches our grip and the stock. That is an awesome build!

As a side note... on our website we have a note about colors of our safeties. We basically say that our colors don't match FDE or ODG, but do "coordinate" with those colors. But since you did a true FDE build, I feel you made the right choice to Cerakote those parts to match.

Nice job, and thank you taking the time to do this.
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Old 04-03-2018, 10:48 AM
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Nice review, I have tried all three styles myself. One thing that I wish the thordson would do is release a stock much like the magpul SGA, with a thicker grip and a steeper angle for the hand. I have average sized hands, but I found the grip way too skinny for my liking.
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Old 04-03-2018, 4:13 PM
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Nice review, I have tried all three styles myself. One thing that I wish the thordson would do is release a stock much like the magpul SGA, with a thicker grip and a steeper angle for the hand. I have average sized hands, but I found the grip way too skinny for my liking.
I heard their Gen III has a fatter grip, but I haven't tried one myself. I'm tempted to order one, but I'm running out of rifles to install them on!
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Old 04-03-2018, 4:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Sparrow Dynamics View Post
Fantastic detailed review! And great photos too. It is nice in a review to get hand size and shape for ergonomics reference.

I like how the FDE Cerakote turned out on our safety, the Odinworks extended mag release, and the B.A.D. lever... and how well it all matches our grip and the stock. That is an awesome build!

As a side note... on our website we have a note about colors of our safeties. We basically say that our colors don't match FDE or ODG, but do "coordinate" with those colors. But since you did a true FDE build, I feel you made the right choice to Cerakote those parts to match.

Nice job, and thank you taking the time to do this.
You're very welcome! I enjoyed putting all these products through their paces and writing this. I took every setup through a whole bunch of mock manipulation drills, slowly and at speed--house clearing, malfunction drills, switching shooting hands around barricades, dropping to prone, and numerous reloads standing, kneeling and while prone. I couldn't tell a difference between your grip and a regular pistol grip once muscle memory kicked in. It really is a natural, comfortable shooting grip.
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Old 04-08-2018, 1:54 AM
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I was looking at the Thordsen for a while, but the Sparrow Dynamics (thanks to this review) has jumped in front, if nothing else because of apparent ease of installation (no need to disassemble buffer tube). I'm thinking of Replacing the CA legal M&P Sport II flap/fin grip, which includes an ambi safety. Will I need to replace that with Sparrow's clocked safety because of the thumb placement?

Also was wondering how Sparrow Dynamics compares to Resurgent Arms' solution.
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Old 04-08-2018, 6:43 AM
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OP.......nice review.

This is what makes California retarded. As if any of those change the performance of a weapon
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Old 04-08-2018, 8:10 AM
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Good review. I'm currently using the Thordsen and Sparrow and I'm happy with both.
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Old 04-08-2018, 8:29 AM
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Good review. I'm currently using the Thordsen and Sparrow and I'm happy with both.
Which one did you find easier to install? And did you go with the Sparrow safety?
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Old 04-08-2018, 8:30 AM
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Thanks for the review.
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Old 04-08-2018, 9:55 AM
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Which one did you find easier to install? And did you go with the Sparrow safety?
The Sparrow is a little easier since it's just a grip, and I haven't got the safety yet.

obligatory Sparrow pic:

thumbnail-12.jpg
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Old 04-08-2018, 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by eswrite View Post
I was looking at the Thordsen for a while, but the Sparrow Dynamics (thanks to this review) has jumped in front, if nothing else because of apparent ease of installation (no need to disassemble buffer tube). I'm thinking of Replacing the CA legal M&P Sport II flap/fin grip, which includes an ambi safety. Will I need to replace that with Sparrow's clocked safety because of the thumb placement?

Also was wondering how Sparrow Dynamics compares to Resurgent Arms' solution.
If it helps at all, the Thordsen install doesn't necessarily require disassembly of the buffer tube if you don't want to use their dehorned end plate. It's a "nice to have" part, but I don't think it's essential for comfort. YMMV. Without the end plate, all you need for the buffer tube is to slide on and screw in their buffer tube cover.

To answer your safety question, I think safeties are very much a personal preference based on the setup, your hand size, and your tolerance for minor annoyances. The Sparrow design gives you more options. You can set the levers up like a traditional 60/90 ambi safety, or you can rotate them into five other positions to suit your ergonomic preference. So, I think you have to ask yourself if it's worth $60 to have those options.

I'm impressed enough with the versatility of the Sparrow safeties lever mounting options that I will definitely be buying a couple more. With the Sparrow grip, I couldn't reach the left side lever without changing my shooting grip. With fin grips, I can't reach the left lever at all. The Sparrow safety lets me actuate the safety without changing my grip with any style of grip.

I hope that helps!
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Old 04-08-2018, 12:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by colossians323 View Post
This is what makes California retarded. As if any of those change the performance of a weapon
Indeed. My manual of arms has gotten more efficient by going featureless. Having a regular mag release is an absolute game changer.
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Old 04-08-2018, 12:47 PM
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hand size does matter a lot for preference of the different grips. I have little girly hands apparently, and I like the Strike Megafin. I paired it with a BAD ambi safety, and used the "short, thin" lever for the thumb side, and it isn't in the way at all. I also have the Exile Backfin, and it is only ok, the thumb rest is too fat for me.
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Old 04-08-2018, 1:09 PM
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Well... while looking for something else at Turner's, I stumbled onto the Sparrow Dynamics grip. Did the change in about five minutes, counting the time it took me to get my tools out and put them back. It's a little gappy in a couple of spots, but nothing major, and it feels very solid and comfortable. Now I can actually rack the charging handle with my left hand while holding to the handle/grip with my right, which didn't feel safe at all with the flap/fin grip my S&W M&P 15 Sport II came with. [And, BTW, that's one of the things that bothers me about most of these "alternative" (featureless) grip solutions: they risk dropping or mishandling of a weapon. I thought CA really cared about gun safety... ]

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Old 04-08-2018, 4:00 PM
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How is the Thordsen not a thumbhole stock? It functions the same way.
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Old 04-08-2018, 4:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Featureless View Post
How is the Thordsen not a thumbhole stock? It functions the same way.
because it's not a stock with a hole in it?

It's two independent pieces, the stock (lower piece) and a buffer tube cover (top piece)
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Old 04-08-2018, 4:34 PM
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I'm going by the definition of a thumbhole stock per CA Code of Regulations Section 978.20 (f):

"“thumbhole stock” means any stock with any opening that enables the firearm to be grasped, controlled, and fired with one hand."

It looks like, according to that definition, that both the Thordsen and the Sparrow fit the description.

I am not a lawyer and this is not a legal opinion, am I missing something?
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Old 04-08-2018, 5:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Featureless View Post
I'm going by the definition of a thumbhole stock per CA Code of Regulations Section 978.20 (f):

"“thumbhole stock” means any stock with any opening that enables the firearm to be grasped, controlled, and fired with one hand."

It looks like, according to that definition, that both the Thordsen and the Sparrow fit the description.

I am not a lawyer and this is not a legal opinion, am I missing something?
The stock is the part that goes against your shoulder. No more, no less.

On the Thordson, the "stock" is the lower part. The upper part is a "buffer tube". The buffer tube is required for the bolt to move to the rear (inside the tube) as the rifle fires. Notice how the buffer tube does not attach to the stock, and you don't put your shoulder against the buffer tube.

The Thordson stock does not include a buffer tube in the package (at least mine didn't).

Since there isn't a hole in the stock, it can't be a thumbhole stock.

The sparrow is a "grip". This grip isn't attached to the stock. The stock on the sparrow-equipped rifles is connected to the buffer tube, as opposed to a the Thordson where the stock does not attach to the buffer tube. Since the stock on the sparrow-equipped rifles (the part on the end of the buffer tube) does not have a hole in it where your thumb can go through, it also can't be a thumbhole stock.
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Last edited by unusedusername; 04-08-2018 at 5:42 PM..
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Old 04-08-2018, 6:35 PM
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How is the Thordsen not a thumbhole stock? It functions the same way.
Awwwwwww, you see the retardedness
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Old 04-08-2018, 6:36 PM
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on.

I am not a lawyer and this is not a legal opinion, am I missing something?
pretty much, you're way late to the game
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Old 04-08-2018, 7:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Featureless View Post
I'm going by the definition of a thumbhole stock per CA Code of Regulations Section 978.20 (f):

"“thumbhole stock” means any stock with any opening that enables the firearm to be grasped, controlled, and fired with one hand."

It looks like, according to that definition, that both the Thordsen and the Sparrow fit the description.

I am not a lawyer and this is not a legal opinion, am I missing something?
By that logic any rifle (say the Winchester 1873) fails the same way, because the one handed grip (or even two-handed) is indistinguishable. Yes, old time shooters shot thevWnchester one-handed in a pinch. On the other hand, we could notice the rear hand grip on the Thordsen and Sparrow grip is in distinguishable from that on a "regular" rifle or shotgun, and to boot, there is nothing that qualifies as a "thumb hole" physically speaking.

BTW, firing an AR one-handed without a pistol grip is silliness.
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Old 04-08-2018, 9:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Featureless View Post
I'm going by the definition of a thumbhole stock per CA Code of Regulations Section 978.20 (f):

"“thumbhole stock” means any stock with any opening that enables the firearm to be grasped, controlled, and fired with one hand."

It looks like, according to that definition, that both the Thordsen and the Sparrow fit the description.

I am not a lawyer and this is not a legal opinion, am I missing something?

With all due respect, you are almost 20 years behind with your thumbhole stock definition. I’m not trying to be rude but to clarify. California’s laws and definitions are often confusing and we need to be extra careful when quoting them in a public forum.

Please read this from the SB23 Final Statement of Reasons

978.20(e) - Thumbhole Stock
The proposed definition originally noticed to the public defined a thumbhole stock as “any stock with any opening that enables the firearm to be grasped, controlled and fired with one hand.” Comments received during the initial comment period (December 31, 1999 through February 28, 2000) stated that the term “any stock with any opening” is overly broad and ambiguous. The Department agrees that any opening can include openings other than thumbholes. As a result, the Department changed “any stock with any opening” to “a stock with a hole.” Significant public input received during the initial comment period also addressed the subjectivity of the phrase “fired with one hand.” It appears from the comments that it could be an arbitrary standard that requires consideration of physical characteristics such as strength and dexterity that vary from person to person. The Department accordingly determined its use would add confusion rather than clarity to the definition. The definition was revised to specify the physical characteristic of a thumbhole stock as “a stock with a hole that allows the thumb of the trigger hand to penetrate the stock,” and was noticed during the first 15-day comment period (May 10 through May 30, 2000). The comments received during this 15-day notice raised additional challenges regarding the definition of the term “penetrate.” In an effort to further clarify the definition, the Department added the phrase “into or through” to the phrase “penetrate the stock.” The final revised definition: “thumbhole stock means a stock with a hole that allows the thumb of the trigger hand to penetrate into or through the stock” was noticed during the second 15-day comment period (July 12 through July 31, 2000). Although additional comments were received, none resulted in substantial revision to the definition. However, the Department made a non-substantial revision by adding “while firing” to make it explicit in the definition that the placement of the thumbhole must allow the thumb of the trigger hand to penetrate into or through the stock while firing.

https://oag.ca.gov/sites/all/files/a.../regs/fsor.pdf


It has been that same definition since then.

Here is the latest definition after the bullet button fiasco, and the definition of Thumbhole Stock has not changed since the last one in 2000.

FINAL TEXT
California Code of Regulations Title 11, Division 5
Chapter 39 Assault Weapons and Large-Capacity Magazines
§ 5471
(qq) “Thumbhole stock” means a stock with a hole that allows the thumb of the trigger hand to penetrate into or through the stock while firing.

https://oag.ca.gov/sites/all/files/a...let-button.pdf

I hope this clarifies things. The Thordsen is not a thumbstock and neither is our CRG-15. And thankfully, neither is a Winchester 1873.
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Old 04-09-2018, 7:43 AM
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i use them all .
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Old 04-09-2018, 8:25 AM
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By that logic any rifle (say the Winchester 1873) fails the same way, because the one handed grip (or even two-handed) is indistinguishable.
The Win 1873 can't "fail(s) in the same way" because it isn't a semi-auto and it has a tubular magazine.

Let's try to make an effort to not lump all rifles in with "assault weapon" regulatory requirements. Others will do that for us.
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Old 04-09-2018, 8:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Featureless View Post
I'm going by the definition of a thumbhole stock per CA Code of Regulations Section 978.20 (f):

"“thumbhole stock” means any stock with any opening that enables the firearm to be grasped, controlled, and fired with one hand."

It looks like, according to that definition, that both the Thordsen and the Sparrow fit the description.

I am not a lawyer and this is not a legal opinion, am I missing something?
1. As noted, you're reading the old definition.
2. You need to go back and review the parts of the AR platform, paying particular attention to the terms, "grip", "stock", and "buffer tube." The reason they have different names is because they are different parts. Thus, "stock" is not a "grip", nor is a "grip" a "stock".

The Sparrow Grip is a grip, not a stock.

The Thordsen is a stock. If you remove it from the Rifle, there is no hole through it, so it can't be a "thumbhole" stock. Arguably, if the shoulder rest of the Thordsen is attached to the buffer tube (not just meeting it), this would constitute a thumbhole stock, as the two pieces would then be contiguous, creating a hole. So, don't do that.

A CEQA stock slides over the buffer tube. The stock is a thumbhole stock, but the buffer tube is still the buffer tube. When you remove the stock from the gun, the buffer tube remains on the gun. The separated stock retains a thumbhole.
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Old 04-09-2018, 9:14 AM
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Thanks for taking me to the woodshed over this I guess my first mistake was trying to apply any form of logic to the endless, capricious
gun laws handed down by our hoplophobic state legislature. The 1873 Winchester comparison made that very clear.

I've converted all my EBR's to featureless simply so that I can take them to the range (for now) without openly defying any of the myriad, everchanging, and foolish edicts that come down from Sacramento. I fully expect that before this year is up, those of us attempting to comply by eliminating any evil features will be slapped down with further restrictions.

Again, apologies for not researching this more before speaking.
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Old 04-09-2018, 9:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Dvrjon View Post
The Win 1873 can't "fail(s) in the same way" because it isn't a semi-auto and it has a tubular magazine.

Let's try to make an effort to not lump all rifles in with "assault weapon" regulatory requirements. Others will do that for us.
I took it as a funny and sarcastic remark.
It could have been similarly stated that a Ruger Mini-14 has a thumbhole stock under that older and poorly written definition.
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Old 04-09-2018, 11:27 AM
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Thanks for taking me to the woodshed over this
Gosh, that really wasn't the intent. You were making confused conclusions based on a reading of outdated regulations. As others noted, those are 20 years old, and you are behind the power curve. My comments were meant to provide you with a "Cliffs Notes" update of two years of discussions to bring you up to speed. I had no intention of taking you to the woodshed or anywhere else.
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Originally Posted by Featureless View Post
Again, apologies for not researching this more before speaking.
Don't apologize for not knowing...the way this crap changes, you can't know what you don't know.

Here's the current regulation on assault weapon definitions: https://govt.westlaw.com/calregs/Doc...ta=(sc.Default)

It's a bit longer than my previous posts.

And, of course,

Welcome to Calguns.
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Old 04-09-2018, 11:49 AM
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I took it as a funny and sarcastic remark.
It could have been similarly stated that a Ruger Mini-14 has a thumbhole stock under that older and poorly written definition.
Now I'm really confused. I can't locate, "...any opening that enables the firearm to be grasped, controlled, and fired with one hand."
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Ruger mini 14.jpg (35.6 KB, 1023 views)
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Old 04-09-2018, 11:57 AM
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I took it as a funny and sarcastic remark.
It could have been similarly stated that a Ruger Mini-14 has a thumbhole stock under that older and poorly written definition.
Which stores sell your grip?
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Old 04-09-2018, 2:16 PM
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Great write up! Thank you for your effort. I really like Featureless, and I use the Sparrow grip on my featureless AR15



My other featureless:



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