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Centerfire Rifles - Semiautomatic or Gas Operated Centerfire rifles, carbines and other gas operated rifles.

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  #201  
Old 04-05-2018, 2:41 PM
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Originally Posted by guest1 View Post
Please correct me if my thought process is incorrect but wouldn't the rifle for the most part be featurless even of when you're in the "fixed magazine" mode? otherwise it's not really featureless if you still have all the evil features even if its for 3 seconds while changing your mag?
so basically this is a featurless rifle with a standard grip?
Yes, you would need to fix your stock, muzzle brake in lieu of flash hider, and no forward grip.
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  #202  
Old 04-05-2018, 2:46 PM
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Originally Posted by ColdDeadHands1 View Post
Yes, you would need to fix your stock, muzzle brake in lieu of flash hider, and no forward grip.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but If your breaking the action to release the mag you can have all the features.

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  #203  
Old 04-05-2018, 2:54 PM
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but If your breaking the action to release the mag you can have all the features.

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This particular discussion is about the Bear Flag folding grip / mag release device only. The principle of that is that you have a fixed mag rifle when the grip is down and a featureless rifle when the grip is folded up. Therefore, you cannot have the three "evil" features on your rifle in this particular configuration.
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  #204  
Old 04-05-2018, 2:59 PM
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Originally Posted by ColdDeadHands1 View Post
This particular discussion is about the Bear Flag folding grip / mag release device only. The principle of that is that you have a fixed mag rifle when the grip is down and a featureless rifle when the grip is folded up. Therefore, you cannot have the three "evil" features on your rifle in this particular configuration.
When the grip is folded up can you release the mag without breaking the action?

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  #205  
Old 04-05-2018, 3:01 PM
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saw the video again. Yeah its looks to be in violation if you have the evil features when the grip is up. Unless you have a fixed stock and a compensator instead of a flash suppressor

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  #206  
Old 04-05-2018, 3:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Coffeeandgunsandammo View Post
saw the video again. Yeah its looks to be in violation if you have the evil features when the grip is up. Unless you have a fixed stock and a compensator instead of a flash suppressor

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Its all moot with us limited to 10 round mags in a fixed magazine rifle. Just fix the magazine and use MA or BF-10 loaders.
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  #207  
Old 04-05-2018, 5:27 PM
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Thank You Swamp2! Very informative! Bill
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  #208  
Old 04-05-2018, 7:18 PM
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Originally Posted by guest1 View Post
Please correct me if my thought process is incorrect but wouldn't the rifle for the most part be featurless even of when you're in the "fixed magazine" mode? otherwise it's not really featureless if you still have all the evil features even if its for 3 seconds while changing your mag?
so basically this is a featurless rifle with a standard grip?
Correct.
For this to be legal, the pistol grip must be the only feature.
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  #209  
Old 04-06-2018, 9:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Whiterabbit View Post
Seeing as someone here suggested that being able to INSERT a magazine into the action when closed constitutes an AW, there are much, much bigger issues to contend with.



Frankly, if that statement amounts to truth, then the vast, vast majority of compliance devices are in fact non-compliant.


I’m sure has already been addressed, but this is a misunderstanding of the way the law is worded...big surprise...the acceptance of a magazine is not the issue at all. The issue is how the magazine is removed, hence disassembly of the action for removal. The point is further proven here that the legislation is too convoluted to be fully understood by anyone.


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  #210  
Old 04-06-2018, 10:16 AM
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I’m sure has already been addressed, but this is a misunderstanding of the way the law is worded...big surprise...the acceptance of a magazine is not the issue at all. The issue is how the magazine is removed, hence disassembly of the action for removal. The point is further proven here that the legislation is too convoluted to be fully understood by anyone.
Are you sure about that? Assault Weapon is defined in the statute as, "A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that does not have a fixed magazine but has any one of the following..."

If the semiauto rifle doesn't have any magazine in it at all, then it definitely doesn't have a fixed magazine, and would therefore precisely meet the statutory definition of an AW, unless the action is (and remains) disassembled while the magazine is absent.

I want you to be right, but I'm not sure you are. I think you may be thinking that the statutory language means that the rifle needs to have a "device installed that would fix a magazine in place, if there was one." But the statute doesn't say that. Having "a fixed magazine" means that 1) it has a magazine, and 2) the magazine is fixed - unless the action remains disassembled the whole time that the magazine is not installed.
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  #211  
Old 04-06-2018, 5:31 PM
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Originally Posted by cockedandglocked View Post
Are you sure about that? Assault Weapon is defined in the statute as, "A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that does not have a fixed magazine but has any one of the following..."

If the semiauto rifle doesn't have any magazine in it at all, then it definitely doesn't have a fixed magazine, and would therefore precisely meet the statutory definition of an AW, unless the action is (and remains) disassembled while the magazine is absent.

I want you to be right, but I'm not sure you are. I think you may be thinking that the statutory language means that the rifle needs to have a "device installed that would fix a magazine in place, if there was one." But the statute doesn't say that. Having "a fixed magazine" means that 1) it has a magazine, and 2) the magazine is fixed - unless the action remains disassembled the whole time that the magazine is not installed.
Read CA PC 30515 for the definition of "fixed magazine.
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  #212  
Old 04-09-2018, 5:47 AM
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Hey guys.

I’m going to do a live feed on instagram tomorrow night Monday April 9th around 7:00.

It’ll be my first feed and I’m ok with doing it for even 1 person but if you have questions join on in.

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  #213  
Old 04-10-2018, 5:46 AM
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So it looks like SDSU’s comment might’ve been missed.

Again, “Any word on the Raddlock Relock?”
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  #214  
Old 04-10-2018, 7:23 PM
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So it looks like SDSU’s comment might’ve been missed.

Again, “Any word on the Raddlock Relock?”
What word?
The DOJ will not tell us, and the law is not clear.
We will not know unless and until someone is arrested, tried, and either convicted or acquitted... and that assumes that they don't accept a plea bargain.
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  #215  
Old 04-10-2018, 7:26 PM
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Ya, we're on our own.

DOJ did say, in a roundabout way, that the Patriot mag lock "or similar devices" is compliant, in their AW faq on their website. Not sure if that statement really holds any water, legally speaking, but it's the closest we're ever going to get to a DOJ approval of anything.

Other than that, all we can do is use our best judgment and hope for the best, unless/until some case law sorts it out.
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  #216  
Old 04-10-2018, 7:57 PM
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Originally Posted by cockedandglocked View Post
Ya, we're on our own.

DOJ did say, in a roundabout way, that the Patriot mag lock "or similar devices" is compliant, in their AW faq on their website. Not sure if that statement really holds any water, legally speaking, but it's the closest we're ever going to get to a DOJ approval of anything.
Also supported by approved DROS transactions, in a similar manner that the Bullet Button was somewhat formalized as legal once the first AR15 DROS of 2014 was processed.
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A just gov't will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just gov't. If a small minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people the RKBA of the whole is our insurance against their success.
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  #217  
Old 04-11-2018, 3:15 AM
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Thanks guys.
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  #218  
Old 04-12-2018, 12:51 PM
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I need a little help understanding the ins and outs of mag locks. Something like a Maglatch which can only be removed by opening the action looks to be GTG, and something like an ARMAGLOCK which can be disassembled without the action being open thus allowing the mag to drop isn't GTG?

One of my rifles is a BB gun and I don't want to go through the hassle (and other things) of registering it or the expense of going featureless.
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  #219  
Old 04-12-2018, 1:12 PM
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There was a lot of speculation that ARmaglock might not be compliant, since it doesn't appear to exactly follow the letter of the law for the reason you mentioned, but it seems DOJ is letting it slide. Many AR's have been sold at gun stores with ARmaglocks, and DOJ says nothing. They have said on their FAQ that "Patriot mag locks and similar devices" are ok. The term "similar devices", of course, is open to interpretation.

And of course, compliance aside, I'd always recommend getting something besides an ARmaglock, if for no other reason than they're a terrible company.
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  #220  
Old 04-12-2018, 1:24 PM
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I guess that's the rub...letting it slide. I was in AMMO BROS today and they have been selling AR's with ARMAGLOCKS with no problems (for now I guess). I bought an EP ARMORY lock and am concerned that ( it being a similar device), ain't gonna make it.
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  #221  
Old 04-12-2018, 2:26 PM
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How is there speculation that AR Maglock is not compliant? Here are the installation instructions


If followed correctly how can it be disassembled?



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  #222  
Old 04-12-2018, 3:18 PM
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EPArmory bolt catch lock 4.99 & free shipping.

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  #223  
Old 04-13-2018, 9:20 AM
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How is there speculation that AR Maglock is not compliant? Here are the installation instructions


If followed correctly how can it be disassembled?



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Then why do they advertise the ability to remove it with an Allen wrench if you have a malfunction?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqHOxUdGTc8

Does it come drilled out on factory rifles that ship with it installed?

Last edited by WHH; 04-13-2018 at 9:22 AM..
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  #224  
Old 04-13-2018, 9:39 AM
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Then why do they advertise the ability to remove it with an Allen wrench if you have a malfunction?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqHOxUdGTc8

Does it come drilled out on factory rifles that ship with it installed?
because its a great option to have if you choose not to drill it out. why? no where in the regulations does it state that the maglock device needs to be permanent. only the magazine. if you want that added layer of drilling it out then go for it.

If you want to dance around the wording of the regulations thats fine. it just may point to the fact that the DOJ just loves to leave things ambiguous to create confusion. AR maglock has been selling for quite a while now with no issues so the fact that someone posted on here questioning it has fed into the fear that the device is non compliant.

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  #225  
Old 04-13-2018, 9:51 AM
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because its a great option to have if you choose not to drill it out. why? no where in the regulations does it state that the maglock device needs to be permanent. only the magazine. if you want that added layer of drilling it out then go for it.

If you want to dance around the wording of the regulations thats fine. it just may point to the fact that the DOJ just loves to leave things ambiguous to create confusion. AR maglock has been selling for quite a while now with no issues so the fact that someone posted on here questioning it has fed into the fear that the device is non compliant.
I didn't say it wasn't compliant, I'm just suggesting that they are being disingenuous. You can't advertise the product as correcting a huge safety hazard by allowing removal with a tool, but then say in the instructions that you should install it in a way that that destroys the ability to remove it with a tool. This suggests they are covering their *** because they know this is an issue.

This is related to the fact that in the malfunction clearing video, he clearly creates an illegal configuration in the process.

I'm not saying people shouldn't use this device. I think it can be used in a legal way, but they aren't being forthright about the issues.

And just to be clear, is the implication that ARmaglock would stand behind the product even if it weren't installed according to their instructions? It sounds like a window for them to say: "we say in the instructions to make the installation permanent by drilling out the screw head. Not our fault."
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  #226  
Old 04-13-2018, 10:04 AM
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Originally Posted by WHH View Post
I didn't say it wasn't compliant, I'm just suggesting that they are being disingenuous. You can't advertise the product as correcting a huge safety hazard by allowing removal with a tool, but then say in the instructions that you should install it in a way that that destroys the ability to remove it with a tool. This suggests they are covering their *** because they know this is an issue.

This is related to the fact that in the malfunction clearing video, he clearly creates an illegal configuration in the process.

I'm not saying people shouldn't use this device. I think it can be used in a legal way, but they aren't being forthright about the issues.

And just to be clear, is the implication that ARmaglock would stand behind the product even if it weren't installed according to their instructions? It sounds like a window for them to say: "we say in the instructions to make the installation permanent by drilling out the screw head. Not our fault."


Sure I understand that but ultimately the consumer can decide what the issues are.

If safety is their number one issue then they will choose to clear a double feed malfunction which can include taking a drill and drilling out their unuseable Allen wrench, Patriot Mag release metal plug or removing the roll pin with a punch to take off the Cal Catch, Juggernaut Tactical etc systems.

If following the law is their number one issue then they can unsafely clear a sprung bolt on a loaded chamber by removing the two takedown pins or shoving a screwdriver in the chamber to remove the malfunction.


In this case for me safety trumps the law. But that’s just me


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  #227  
Old 04-13-2018, 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by WHH View Post
I didn't say it wasn't compliant, I'm just suggesting that they are being disingenuous. You can't advertise the product as correcting a huge safety hazard by allowing removal with a tool, but then say in the instructions that you should install it in a way that that destroys the ability to remove it with a tool. This suggests they are covering their *** because they know this is an issue.

This is related to the fact that in the malfunction clearing video, he clearly creates an illegal configuration in the process.

I'm not saying people shouldn't use this device. I think it can be used in a legal way, but they aren't being forthright about the issues.

And just to be clear, is the implication that ARmaglock would stand behind the product even if it weren't installed according to their instructions? It sounds like a window for them to say: "we say in the instructions to make the installation permanent by drilling out the screw head. Not our fault."
As goes with anything. Even candle companies will tell you not to light a candle for more than 1 hour and without proper ventilation.

It's a caution that every single manufacturer for every single product does. You're obviously new... so instead of crudding up a good thread with your paranoia why don't you do some reading.
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Old 04-13-2018, 10:15 AM
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Sure I understand that but ultimately the consumer can decide what the issues are.

If safety is their number one issue then they will choose to clear a double feed malfunction which can include taking a drill and drilling out their unuseable Allen wrench, Patriot Mag release metal plug or removing the roll pin with a punch to take off the Cal Catch, Juggernaut Tactical etc systems.

If following the law is their number one issue then they can unsafely clear a sprung bolt on a loaded chamber by removing the two takedown pins or shoving a screwdriver in the chamber to remove the malfunction.


In this case for me safety trumps the law. But that’s just me


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Safety and the law are only in conflict here because you are artificially putting them in conflict. It could be the case that there is no safe and legal fixed mag configuration of an AR-15, in which case, people who care about being both safe and legal shouldn't use fixed mag AR-15s. I think a lot of people probably feel that way and are going featureless as a result. It is certainly my number one concern. I will be the first in line to buy a fixed mag device that I think solves these problems (i.e., being unambiguously legal while allowing for the safe, easy clearance of malfunctions). To my mind, something like a DFM with a floor plate that is easy to drop is probably the best bet, but maybe there are mag release options that can also do it. I just don't think we are there yet.

Again, I say all of this not to knock ARMaglock, but as a consumer who, like anyone who is trying to make an AR-15 compliant, wants peace of mind that they are clearly on the right side of the law, without jeopardizing their safety.
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  #229  
Old 04-13-2018, 10:20 AM
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As goes with anything. Even candle companies will tell you not to light a candle for more than 1 hour and without proper ventilation.

It's a caution that every single manufacturer for every single product does. You're obviously new... so instead of crudding up a good thread with your paranoia why don't you do some reading.
The equivalent of this would be saying that our candles burn without producing any carbon monoxide, but the instructions state you should never light them. I just don't get why you would go to the trouble of attaching a bunch of crap to your gun without thinking through whether or not it actually resolves any legal issues, but to each his own.

Seriously though, if there's some reading that resolves this issue, I would happily check it out.

Last edited by WHH; 04-13-2018 at 10:23 AM..
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  #230  
Old 04-13-2018, 10:29 AM
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Safety and the law are only in conflict here because you are artificially putting them in conflict. It could be the case that there is no safe and legal fixed mag configuration of an AR-15, in which case, people who care about being both safe and legal shouldn't use fixed mag AR-15s. I think a lot of people probably feel that way and are going featureless as a result. It is certainly my number one concern. I will be the first in line to buy a fixed mag device that I think solves these problems (i.e., being unambiguously legal while allowing for the safe, easy clearance of malfunctions). To my mind, something like a DFM with a floor plate that is easy to drop is probably the best bet, but maybe there are mag release options that can also do it. I just don't think we are there yet.



Again, I say all of this not to knock ARMaglock, but as a consumer who, like anyone who is trying to make an AR-15 compliant, wants peace of mind that they are clearly on the right side of the law, without jeopardizing their safety.


Search my posts. You’ll see that we ARE there. If you need a specific link I can PM it to you.


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  #231  
Old 04-13-2018, 10:35 AM
WHH WHH is offline
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Search my posts. You’ll see that we ARE there. If you need a specific link I can PM it to you.


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Thanks for the PM. The latest device looks pretty sweet.
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  #232  
Old 04-13-2018, 10:36 AM
eric_650 eric_650 is offline
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Seriously though, if there's some reading that resolves this issue, I would happily check it out.
You can happily check out the regs and find out that nowhere does the maglock have to be "permanent". In case you didn't know, there are other restricted states where this device can be applied. Thats why they put the note in step 10.
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  #233  
Old 04-13-2018, 10:39 AM
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Thanks for the PM. The latest device looks pretty sweet.


Thank you and appreciate the exchange.


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  #234  
Old 04-13-2018, 10:42 AM
WHH WHH is offline
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You can happily check out the regs and find out that nowhere does the maglock have to be "permanent". In case you didn't know, there are other restricted states where this device can be applied. Thats why they put the note in step 10.
I don't disagree about the permanence thing. I just mentioned it because the permanent attachment in the instructions was suggested as a way to make sure it was compliant. If it's already compliant, why suggest you attach it permanently as a way to make it "more" compliant. That's what felt like a slippery move.

My substantive issue is how in the videos showing removal of the device to clear double feeds, they end up with an illegal configuration, at least temporarily. In my mind, that defeats the purpose of a compliance device.

Protohyp clued me in on the latest version, which appears to not require removal of the mag lock to drop the mag in a double feed situation, and that's awesome. Seems like the best option out there. I'll almost definitely buy one.
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  #235  
Old 04-13-2018, 4:40 PM
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Cokebottle Cokebottle is offline
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Protohyp clued me in on the latest version, which appears to not require removal of the mag lock to drop the mag in a double feed situation
If the magazine can be removed without partial disassembly of the action, then it is not compliant.

There is a period at the end of that sentence.

The magazine latch is not required to be permanent, otherwise the FC Hook and Freedom Fighter would not be compliant.
The magazine itself does not need to be permanent... the legal requirement is "fixed" with "fixed" defined as not detachable without partial disassembly of the action, with the action defined as the bolt carrier and firing pin, and the example provided of breaking the upper open.

Obviously, any magazine catch can be defeated by drilling or breaking the part(s)... There have been a few who claimed that no external device was compliant because one can easily break the retention finger with a pair of pliers. I do not agree with THAT strict an interpretation.
But the "removable without the use of a tool" language is gone with the new laws.
Using a hex key to remove the screw that retains the part (without braking the upper open) is no different than using a bullet tip to release a bullet button.
Without drilling out the hex head, the device is not compliant. As demonstrated in the video, it is not compliant.
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A just gov't will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just gov't. If a small minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people the RKBA of the whole is our insurance against their success.

Last edited by Cokebottle; 04-13-2018 at 4:45 PM..
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  #236  
Old 04-13-2018, 4:52 PM
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If the magazine can be removed without partial disassembly of the action, then it is not compliant.

There is a period at the end of that sentence.

The magazine latch is not required to be permanent, otherwise the FC Hook and Freedom Fighter would not be compliant.
The magazine itself does not need to be permanent... the legal requirement is "fixed" with "fixed" defined as not detachable without partial disassembly of the action, with the action defined as the bolt carrier and firing pin, and the example provided of breaking the upper open.

Obviously, any magazine catch can be defeated by drilling or breaking the part(s)... There have been a few who claimed that no external device was compliant because one can easily break the retention finger with a pair of pliers. I do not agree with THAT strict an interpretation.
But the "removable without the use of a tool" language is gone with the new laws.
Using a hex key to remove the screw that retains the part (without braking the upper open) is no different than using a bullet tip to release a bullet button.
Without drilling out the hex head, the device is not compliant. As demonstrated in the video, it is not compliant.
if i'm using a tool such as a drill to drill out the hex head...i guarantee that i can use that same tool...yes they did teach us in shop class that a drill is a tool....to completely remove that drilled out screw and remove the whole entire device.
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  #237  
Old 04-13-2018, 5:44 PM
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if i'm using a tool such as a drill to drill out the hex head...i guarantee that i can use that same tool...yes they did teach us in shop class that a drill is a tool....to completely remove that drilled out screw and remove the whole entire device.
Like I said... I do not believe that being able to remove the magazine via destruction of the magazine catch creates a non-compliant condition.

Yes, the drill is a tool, just as the pliers that can break the locking finger are a tool, but in this case, the tool is being used to destroy the magazine catch... not to simply allow it to be operated in a non-compliant manner, to be later returned to service without replacement.

I'm good with the ARMaglock if the hex head is drilled so that it can not be loosened without destroying it.

If the hex head is not drilled, and the screw can be loosened using a hex key, in a manner that allows the magazine to be detached without separating the upper, then it is not compliant simply because the magazine can be detached without partial disassembly of the action.
The regs further state that a receiver with NO magazine release does not constitute a fixed magazine.

If you can get the magazine out without breaking the upper open (and without damaging the magazine release), it's not compliant plain and simple. I honestly don't understand how you can see that as being any different than a bullet button.
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Originally Posted by dantodd View Post
A just gov't will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just gov't. If a small minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people the RKBA of the whole is our insurance against their success.
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  #238  
Old 04-13-2018, 5:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Cokebottle View Post
Like I said... I do not believe that being able to remove the magazine via destruction of the magazine catch creates a non-compliant condition.

Yes, the drill is a tool, just as the pliers that can break the locking finger are a tool, but in this case, the tool is being used to destroy the magazine catch... not to simply allow it to be operated in a non-compliant manner, to be later returned to service without replacement.

I'm good with the ARMaglock if the hex head is drilled so that it can not be loosened without destroying it.

If the hex head is not drilled, and the screw can be loosened using a hex key, in a manner that allows the magazine to be detached without separating the upper, then it is not compliant simply because the magazine can be detached without partial disassembly of the action.
The regs further state that a receiver with NO magazine release does not constitute a fixed magazine.

If you can get the magazine out without breaking the upper open (and without damaging the magazine release), it's not compliant plain and simple. I honestly don't understand how you can see that as being any different than a bullet button.

I haven't fully checked the Cross Armory mag catch but when its installed is it via hex head as well?
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  #239  
Old 04-13-2018, 5:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cokebottle View Post
Like I said... I do not believe that being able to remove the magazine via destruction of the magazine catch creates a non-compliant condition.

Yes, the drill is a tool, just as the pliers that can break the locking finger are a tool, but in this case, the tool is being used to destroy the magazine catch... not to simply allow it to be operated in a non-compliant manner, to be later returned to service without replacement.

I'm good with the ARMaglock if the hex head is drilled so that it can not be loosened without destroying it.

If the hex head is not drilled, and the screw can be loosened using a hex key, in a manner that allows the magazine to be detached without separating the upper, then it is not compliant simply because the magazine can be detached without partial disassembly of the action.
The regs further state that a receiver with NO magazine release does not constitute a fixed magazine.

If you can get the magazine out without breaking the upper open (and without damaging the magazine release), it's not compliant plain and simple. I honestly don't understand how you can see that as being any different than a bullet button.

I haven't fully checked the Cross Armory mag catch but when its installed is it via hex head as well?

actually I just looked at their website and and see that there are 3 sets of hex heads...I think the other two are to tune it to function. could those not in theory be adjusted to release it?
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  #240  
Old 04-13-2018, 6:00 PM
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regardless I think I posted in a previous exchange with you that "because Cokebottle or Protohyp said so" is not a defense in court.

i suggest each and everyone of you guys read the regulations over to at least be able to speak with conviction what you believe those regulations to mean.
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