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  #1  
Old 12-14-2018, 9:37 PM
urduja urduja is offline
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Default Storing Off Roster guns

My husband is permanently stationed out of state and is about to go on a long deployment. I stayed in CA because we have a small child and for family support. He is often away, so it made no sense to relocate. Anyways, he lives off base, but because he is going to be gone so long he doesn't want to leave his guns and wants to bring them here to store. I have my FSC finally. So, my question is, can he store them here? And, with his permission, can I borrow them once in awhile to shoot at the range? He is leaving behind the high capacity magazines, but wants to bring just the guns. Handguns.
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  #2  
Old 12-14-2018, 10:29 PM
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Pretty sure Librarian or Quiet would chime in, but in summary my understanding is the pistols would be fine but the magazines must be blocked
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Old 12-14-2018, 10:44 PM
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I think you can store them, but you can't have access to them. They probably should be stored in a safe. New CA laws state that you cannot lend firearms out to anyone, unless the gun owner is present with the firearm. But, as a spouse, the firearms may be community property. Id check with a lawyer or read up on it. there is a book on CA guns laws.
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Old 12-15-2018, 6:44 AM
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Possibly importation issues.

Last edited by Monkeywrench; 12-15-2018 at 6:46 AM..
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Old 12-15-2018, 7:00 AM
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LIBRARIAN WILL CHIME IN WITH PROPER INFO. ANYONE WHO SAYS i THINK AS AN ANSWER IS USUALLY WRONG.
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Old 12-15-2018, 7:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by urduja View Post
My husband is permanently stationed out of state and is about to go on a long deployment. I stayed in CA because we have a small child and for family support. He is often away, so it made no sense to relocate. Anyways, he lives off base, but because he is going to be gone so long he doesn't want to leave his guns and wants to bring them here to store. I have my FSC finally. So, my question is, can he store them here? And, with his permission, can I borrow them once in awhile to shoot at the range? He is leaving behind the high capacity magazines, but wants to bring just the guns. Handguns.


Unfortunately that is a sticky situation. I believe the only solution would be for him to transfer them to you, through a dealer, in order to legally have them here. The law says he can bring them to Kalifornia if he is moving back into the state and notifies DOJ within a required timeline. The only way a firearm doesn’t go though a dealer is when moving and notifying DOJ. He cannot bring “Large Cap Mags” into the state either. You would be exempt from the roster but not the 1 in 30 day rule so it could take a long time if he has a lot of guns. Hope this helped

PS: you would be exempt from “borrowing” the guns as you are his wife, only if the guns were in Kalifornia


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Old 12-15-2018, 8:27 AM
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If he was a Ca resident there may be issues's bringing them into Ca thanks to CPC section 27585. Prior to attempting to bring them into Ca, you may want to consult with an attorney, instead of relying on info from the internet.
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Old 12-15-2018, 8:49 AM
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@ OP - there is a member here under the user name audiophil2 who offers firearms storage services as a licensee.
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Old 12-15-2018, 9:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by urduja View Post
My husband is permanently stationed out of state and is about to go on a long deployment. I stayed in CA because we have a small child and for family support. He is often away, so it made no sense to relocate. Anyways, he lives off base, but because he is going to be gone so long he doesn't want to leave his guns and wants to bring them here to store. I have my FSC finally. So, my question is, can he store them here? And, with his permission, can I borrow them once in awhile to shoot at the range? He is leaving behind the high capacity magazines, but wants to bring just the guns. Handguns.
To answer your question some additional information is needed. Did he acquire these handguns in CA or a different state? If a different state, was he a CA resident under CA law when he acquired them? Is he presently a CA resident under CA law?
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Old 12-15-2018, 9:43 AM
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Yeah, the situation is really convoluted.
I was hoping someone would have run into a similar situation.
The 'high capacity' magazines law is clear, so for that, he is going to leave them or sell them to his buddies in VA, and just get them back or buy them again when he gets back from deployment.

So, he doesn't want to just leave them at some buddies house in VA or even unattended locked up in his apartment. He has some roommates, but they are also in the Navy and can be deployed at any time, so he figured the safest place would to bring them back home. Eventually, he would be coming home and when his orders are for here, at which time, he would be able to register them here as a CA resident.

Even though his home is here in California, he is not considered a CA resident because his permanent order are for VA and he has about 3 more years in that station unless things change.
I know there is that law here that i found https://oag.ca.gov/firearms/pubfaqs#6
that allows him to give me his guns and I can give them back, but I don't know if that applies to him not even being an official CA resident.

Then, we considered what if we did an intra-familial, but the law states parent-child, but doesn't mention spouse (but then CA is a community state, so that got a bit grey there too). Even though there is the #6 as stated above.

So, then the question of storing them here and again another grey area. Considering he is storing them at his primary residence, his home, and the house he pays mortgage on, it should be considered ok. But, because he has been stationed out, he is not home majority of the year. Every leave time he gets though, he comes home.

So, I do have my Safety Certificate, and I own my own handguns AND we have a safe AND gun locks AND my own range membership. And the guns that are on the CA roster, we can do PPT if we need to. It is the off-roster handguns that we are beating our heads over. They are legal guns, just not on the roster.
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Old 12-15-2018, 10:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by urduja;

So, I do have my Safety Certificate, and I own my own handguns AND we have a safe AND gun locks AND my own range membership. And the guns that are on the CA roster, we can do PPT if we need to. It is the off-roster handguns that we are beating our heads over. They are legal guns, just not on the roster.

Even on roster firearms physical transfer would be restricted due to the fact that currently you and your husband are technically residents of two different states. PPT by its definition will not be applicable in this scenario since that is for in-between CA resident transfers.

Transfers between residents of two different states must use an FFL. There are some reading references here but unable to currently verify if they’ve been updated.

http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/in...Family_Members

https://oag.ca.gov/sites/all/files/a...df/cfl2016.pdf
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Old 12-15-2018, 10:40 AM
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Originally Posted by tencreations_ar888 View Post
Even on roster firearms physical transfer would be restricted due to the fact that currently you and your husband are technically residents of two different states. PPT by its definition will not be applicable in this scenario since that is for in-between CA resident transfers.

Transfers between residents of two different states must use an FFL. There are some reading references here but unable to currently verify if they’ve been updated.

http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/in...Family_Members

https://oag.ca.gov/sites/all/files/a...df/cfl2016.pdf
Yes, the on-roster guns are no problem.
The headache is in the off-roster guns.
Eventually he will be coming back home, and that will be fine, but that scenario will be after this year+ long deployment. A few months and that would be fine, but this long, we are both a bit hesitant to leave them

I posted this similar dilemma in the ladies thread hoping some other military wife has had this headache and can share their experiences.
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Old 12-15-2018, 12:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by urduja View Post
Yes, the on-roster guns are no problem.
The headache is in the off-roster guns.
Eventually he will be coming back home, and that will be fine, but that scenario will be after this year+ long deployment. A few months and that would be fine, but this long, we are both a bit hesitant to leave them

I posted this similar dilemma in the ladies thread hoping some other military wife has had this headache and can share their experiences.

I believe that he could do an interstate intrafamily transfer of all of the guns. IF the feds deem him a resident where he is stationed, pursuant to federal law any transfer to you would have to be through an CA FFL. However, under California law this should merely be an intrafamily transfer between spouses which is exempt from the roster. And since the 1 in 30 does not apply to such transfers, he could transfer all of them to you using a single DROS. The two of you need to find a FFL close to you that understands and ask if he will accept the handguns if they are shipped by your husband, if not your husband needs to find a FFL that will ship them for him. He should include a copy of his military ID or DL and a letter stating that he is gifting them to you.

PS this also applies to the on roster guns.

Last edited by BAJ475; 12-15-2018 at 12:28 PM.. Reason: minor correction
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Old 12-15-2018, 1:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BAJ475;
He should include a copy of his military ID

Copying government ID’s (I.e military ID) is not allowed.
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Old 12-15-2018, 2:00 PM
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Originally Posted by tencreations_ar888 View Post
Copying government ID’s (I.e military ID) is not allowed.
I just had this super long discussion with him about this too.
"Honey, I'll need a copy of your id"
"I am telling you I CAN NOT give you a copy of my id"
"Then why do they always ask for a copy of your military id"
"Because they don't know any better"

This was the short version of us trying to figure it all out. My thought is, fly in with all the guns during leave and go straight to the FFL from the airport. yeesh.

And I know this is preaching to the choir, but this is yet another of those instances where people trying to follow the law are being penalized by headaches in trying to do the right thing.

Last edited by urduja; 12-15-2018 at 2:02 PM..
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Old 12-15-2018, 2:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by urduja;
My thought is, fly in with all the guns during leave and go straight to the FFL from the airport. yeesh.

Verify and make arrangements with the FFL well in advance, not all are familiar and/or comfortable with intra-familial transfers. Not all will process a walk-in intra-familial transfer both parties being present. Obtain a list of all documents the FFL needs to process the transfer.
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Old 12-15-2018, 2:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BAJ475 View Post
I believe that he could do an interstate intrafamily transfer of all of the guns.

IF the feds deem him a resident where he is stationed, pursuant to federal law any transfer to you would have to be through an CA FFL.

However, under California law this should merely be an intrafamily transfer between spouses which is exempt from the roster.

And since the 1 in 30 does not apply to such transfers, he could transfer all of them to you using a single DROS. The two of you need to find a FFL close to you that understands and ask if he will accept the handguns if they are shipped by your husband, if not your husband needs to find a FFL that will ship them for him. He should include a copy of his military ID or DL and a letter stating that he is gifting them to you.

PS this also applies to the on roster guns.
This looks like the simplest Way Through The Maze. The husband-wife thing is authorized in a different place
Quote:
husbands and wives can give guns to each other, in an 'operation of law' called 'transmutation' (Family Code 850)
Don't know how to go around the copy of the ID - perhaps he has a VA Driver License?
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Last edited by Librarian; 12-15-2018 at 2:30 PM..
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Old 12-15-2018, 3:43 PM
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Originally Posted by tencreations_ar888 View Post
Verify and make arrangements with the FFL well in advance, not all are familiar and/or comfortable with intra-familial transfers. Not all will process a walk-in intra-familial transfer both parties being present. Obtain a list of all documents the FFL needs to process the transfer.
Yes, actually i was going to go to my local (San Diego) FFL tonight and see what we might need ahead of time. If they can't get it done, then we have time to find another FFL who understands the situation.
This is another one of those funky things, where it seems like depending on the FFL, it can be a yes or a no. I was reading how some people would have to go around to different ones before they can find someone who knows the law and can process what they need.

He can show his id, he just can't give a copy. His DL is CA, but he can show and give his permanent station orders for VA because apparently that just shows where he is supposed to be at and doesn't have information that potentially reveals any secret clearances etc... *sigh*
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Old 12-15-2018, 3:47 PM
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The ffl will want a copy of his id to do dros must have something with picture. No way to submit dros without some id.
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Old 12-15-2018, 4:36 PM
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Originally Posted by urduja View Post
My thought is, fly in with all the guns during leave and go straight to the FFL from the airport.
That would not be a good idea because if CA considers him a CA resident, he would be importing an off roster handgun, a crime. He needs to ship it to the FFL. Just find a local one that understands and will work with you. FFLs can accept firearms shipped to them by non license holders, but many will not because the shipper may not include everything the FFL needs. Good luck
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Old 12-16-2018, 9:31 AM
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Originally Posted by BAJ475 View Post
That would not be a good idea because if CA considers him a CA resident, he would be importing an off roster handgun, a crime. He needs to ship it to the FFL. Just find a local one that understands and will work with you. FFLs can accept firearms shipped to them by non license holders, but many will not because the shipper may not include everything the FFL needs. Good luck
How would that be importing if we are going straight to FFL. Isn't that going to be the same thing except no shipping charge?
I read in other threads of people bringing in guns to gift their child/parents instead of shipping since they are already coming over.
But, I guess it comes down to whether or not he is a CA resident. However, as a CA resident he wouldn't be able to buy the gun in the first place... so grey.
This way, if it doesn't pan out well, he can just take it back with him again, and we had a chance to play with it at the range before he takes it back.

Anyways, I think we did our best to try to uphold the law and doing this the best we can. We will leave it up to the FFL if they can do the transfer/gift whatever needs to be done and go from there.

Thanks all for the input. It really seems to be a matter of how we end up interpreting the law. I guess that is why the lawyers get paid all the big bucks.
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Old 12-16-2018, 11:06 AM
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Originally Posted by urduja View Post
How would that be importing if we are going straight to FFL. Isn't that going to be the same thing except no shipping charge?
I read in other threads of people bringing in guns to gift their child/parents instead of shipping since they are already coming over.
But, I guess it comes down to whether or not he is a CA resident. However, as a CA resident he wouldn't be able to buy the gun in the first place... so grey.
This way, if it doesn't pan out well, he can just take it back with him again, and we had a chance to play with it at the range before he takes it back.

Anyways, I think we did our best to try to uphold the law and doing this the best we can. We will leave it up to the FFL if they can do the transfer/gift whatever needs to be done and go from there.

Thanks all for the input. It really seems to be a matter of how we end up interpreting the law. I guess that is why the lawyers get paid all the big bucks.
California has some screwed up way of thinking where you mention he is paying a mortgage here. He still has a valid CA license? California seems to always seem ownership of a person as primary no matter where they are currently living. I'm curious if the DOJ will question the validity of off roster handguns purchased in another state? Or does military orders negate residency?

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Old 12-16-2018, 11:19 AM
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Wouldn't PCS orders be enough to prove that he is a permanent resident of VA despite the CA DL?
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Old 12-16-2018, 12:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by urduja View Post
1)How would that be importing if we are going straight to FFL. Isn't that going to be the same thing except no shipping charge?

I read in other threads of people bringing in guns to gift their child/parents instead of shipping since they are already coming over.

2) But, I guess it comes down to whether or not he is a CA resident. However, as a CA resident he wouldn't be able to buy the gun in the first place... so grey.

This way, if it doesn't pan out well, he can just take it back with him again, and we had a chance to play with it at the range before he takes it back.

Anyways, I think we did our best to try to uphold the law and doing this the best we can. We will leave it up to the FFL if they can do the transfer/gift whatever needs to be done and go from there.

Thanks all for the input. It really seems to be a matter of how we end up interpreting the law. I guess that is why the lawyers get paid all the big bucks.
(1)The terms of 27585
Quote:
27585.

(a) Commencing January 1, 2015, a resident of this state shall not

import into this state,
bring into this state, or
transport into this state,

any firearm that he or she purchased or otherwise obtained on or after January 1, 2015, from outside of this state

unless he or she first has that firearm delivered to a dealer in this state

for delivery to that resident pursuant to the procedures set forth in Section 27540 and Article 1 (commencing with Section 26700) and Article 2 (commencing with Section 26800) of Chapter 2.
say the CA resident may not bring the gun in him/herself.

(2) is the really confusing bit; there have been no cases prosecuted under this law, so far as I have heard, but it seems to be true that it is possible for CA to believe one is (still) a CA resident, while the BATF Federal law regarding military simultaneously makes that person a resident of a different state for gun-buying purposes.
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Old 12-16-2018, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by BlueOvalBandit View Post
Wouldn't PCS orders be enough to prove that he is a permanent resident of VA despite the CA DL?
No.

Military with PCS orders are, by federal law and BATF regulation, residents of the state where they are stationed. (ETA for gun-buying purposes)

CA has the same provision, for military stationed in CA.

But whether one might also be a CA resident when stationed out of CA is the unanswered question.
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I've been saying that for years ...

There is no value at all complaining or analyzing or reading tea leaves to decide what these bills really mean or actually do; any bill with a chance to pass will be bad for gun owners.

The details only count after the Governor signs the bills.

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Last edited by Librarian; 12-16-2018 at 1:06 PM..
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Old 12-16-2018, 12:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tencreations_ar888 View Post
Copying government ID’s (I.e military ID) is not allowed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by urduja View Post
I just had this super long discussion with him about this too.
"Honey, I'll need a copy of your id"
"I am telling you I CAN NOT give you a copy of my id"
"Then why do they always ask for a copy of your military id"
"Because they don't know any better"

This was the short version of us trying to figure it all out. My thought is, fly in with all the guns during leave and go straight to the FFL from the airport. yeesh.

And I know this is preaching to the choir, but this is yet another of those instances where people trying to follow the law are being penalized by headaches in trying to do the right thing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by edgerly779 View Post
The ffl will want a copy of his id to do dros must have something with picture. No way to submit dros without some id.
All,

There is a lot of bogus information in circulation regarding the legality of photocopying a U.S. Government ID document. Most of the BS in circulation is being passed by folks who read or hear of a general statement to that effect and then circulate it as gospel without paying full attention to what the law really says.

An FFL, if acting in accordance with a statutory, or regulatory, requirement to record a copy of an ID used in a firearm transfer, may legally photocopy a government or military ID card.

The prohibition on photocopying government identification cards is found in 18 USC 701. Here is the text of the law:

"Whoever manufactures, sells, or possesses any badge, identification card, or other insignia, of the design prescribed by the head of any department or agency of the United States for use by any officer or employee thereof, or any colorable imitation thereof, or photographs, prints, or in any other manner makes or executes any engraving, photograph, print, or impression in the likeness of any such badge, identification card, or other insignia, or any colorable imitation thereof, except as authorized under regulations made pursuant to law, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than six months, or both."

Please note that the prohibition includes a clear exception for cases where the photocopying is permitted by law or regulation.
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Old 12-16-2018, 1:29 PM
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The only exemption explicitly outlined by the DOD for the photocopy of military ID’s is for the purposes of medical care and insurance and by civilian or military medical providers.

DOD Instruction 1000.13, Section 6.1.7

Recommendations have previously been made to provide other forms of photo ID to be copied such as a state ID, etc.

Please note it does not mean the military ID CANNOT be shown as proof of identity, simply that it cannot be copied.
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  #28  
Old 12-16-2018, 1:45 PM
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Originally Posted by tencreations_ar888 View Post
The only exemption explicitly outlined by the DOD for the photocopy of military ID’s is for the purposes of medical care and insurance and by civilian or military medical providers.

DOD Instruction 1000.13, Section 6.1.7

Recommendations have previously been made to provide other forms of photo ID to be copied such as a state ID, etc.

Please note it does not mean the military ID CANNOT be shown as proof of identity, simply that it cannot be copied.
That's cool, but FFL's are not bound by DoD instructions. They're bound by the U.S. Code and the Code permits photocopying if permitted by stature or regulation.
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Last edited by RickD427; 12-16-2018 at 1:59 PM..
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Old 12-16-2018, 1:46 PM
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Originally Posted by RickD427 View Post
All,



There is a lot of bogus information in circulation regarding the legality of photocopying a U.S. Government ID document. Most of the BS in circulation is being passed by folks who read or hear of a general statement to that effect and then circulate it as gospel without paying full attention to what the law really says.



An FFL, if acting in accordance with a statutory, or regulatory, requirement to record a copy of an ID used in a firearm transfer, may legally photocopy a government or military ID card.



The prohibition on photocopying government identification cards is found in 18 USC 701. Here is the text of the law:



"Whoever manufactures, sells, or possesses any badge, identification card, or other insignia, of the design prescribed by the head of any department or agency of the United States for use by any officer or employee thereof, or any colorable imitation thereof, or photographs, prints, or in any other manner makes or executes any engraving, photograph, print, or impression in the likeness of any such badge, identification card, or other insignia, or any colorable imitation thereof, except as authorized under regulations made pursuant to law, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than six months, or both."


Please note that the prohibition includes a clear exception for cases where the photocopying is permitted by law or regulation.


I just had a DOJ inspection last week and they told me NOT to photocopy a Federal ID but rather to write down all the information shown front and back and keep it with the DROS


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Old 12-16-2018, 1:57 PM
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Originally Posted by emgee00 View Post
I just had a DOJ inspection last week and they told me NOT to photocopy a Federal ID but rather to write down all the information shown front and back and keep it with the DROS


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And that may be the most appropriate course of action. Please note that my post was simply to correct those making an excessively global conclusion that a U.S. Government ID could not lawfully be photocopied when there was a very clear exception to the prohibition.

I'm not an FFL and I'm not conversant with the regulations governing FFLs. On the other hand, I do attempt to remain conversant with the criminal provisions of the U.S. Code. I am not asserting that there is, or is not, a regulation that requires the photocopying of the ID as part of an FFL transaction. My posting was toward the mis-statement of law that the document could not be photocopied.
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Old 12-16-2018, 6:37 PM
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I'm confused.

in which state were the handguns purchased?
what state is his permanent residence? (usually the state in which he pays state/local income taxes)
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  #32  
Old 12-16-2018, 7:57 PM
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Yes, actually i was going to go to my local (San Diego) FFL tonight and see what we might need ahead of time. If they can't get it done, then we have time to find another FFL who understands the situation.
Since you are in SD, I highly recommend a conversation with the guys at Gunfighter Tactical, on Miramar across from the base. They are former Military, and seem more familiar with the edges and corners of the law than most FFL's, and will try to find a way to get what you need done when others might dismiss you as too much trouble to work with.
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