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2nd Amend. Litigation Updates & Legal Discussion Discuss California 2A related litigation and legal topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #401  
Old 09-15-2017, 12:11 PM
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With all the complicating factors and irregularities Peruta became kind of a "messy" case and it could be they knew a clearer, simpler case was in the pipeline that would result in a clearer and simpler decision. That in turn would result in less wiggle room and fewer challenges down the road.


That's a nice thought and all, but such cases have already been presented to them on multiple occasions, with the result always being the same: denial of cert.

At this point, there is nothing that distinguishes these cases from ones they've already denied cert to. Norman is possibly the only exception to that, but the Peruta dissent to denial of cert, combined with the fact that Woollard was about pure carry such that the Court could have struck the open carry prohibition if it wanted to, gives sufficient reason to believe that the Court will deny cert to Norman as well.


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  #402  
Old 09-15-2017, 4:50 PM
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That's a nice thought and all, but such cases have already been presented to them on multiple occasions, with the result always being the same: denial of cert.


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Weren't those all pre-Gorsuch though? Some think that may be the tipping point and if Peruta hadn't been such a mess it would have been taken... as it was maybe they knew something cleaner was on it's way up and decided to wait.
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  #403  
Old 09-15-2017, 7:00 PM
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Weren't those all pre-Gorsuch though? Some think that may be the tipping point and if Peruta hadn't been such a mess it would have been taken... as it was maybe they knew something cleaner was on it's way up and decided to wait.
Gorsuch didn't change the balance. He replaced Scalia, thus maintaining the balance that was already there.

An actual change to the Court composition is what is required here. Until that happens, the Court simply isn't going to grant cert to a 2A firearms case.
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  #404  
Old 09-16-2017, 12:49 PM
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With all the complicating factors and irregularities Peruta became kind of a "messy" case and it could be they knew a clearer, simpler case was in the pipeline that would result in a clearer and simpler decision. That in turn would result in less wiggle room and fewer challenges down the road.
I meant what you call a "messy case". Could SCOTUS have been waiting for the DC Circuit to rule on Wrenn.
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  #405  
Old 09-16-2017, 9:07 PM
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Gorsuch didn't change the balance. He replaced Scalia, thus maintaining the balance that was already there.

An actual change to the Court composition is what is required here. Until that happens, the Court simply isn't going to grant cert to a 2A firearms case.
It's a race against time. Either mid terms or 2020 could tip the balance back to the Progs. Ginsberg is half dead and Kennedy has mentioned retirement. If these seats open, Trump could fill those vacancies and end up with a 2A court.
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  #406  
Old 09-17-2017, 6:40 AM
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I have always wondered if cert was denied simply because Peruta did not present a clear case in which SCOTUS should decide if concealed carry was protected by the 2A, when it wasn't clear that the state even had the right to intervene at the 9th. Notice I said "should" and not "could" decide, as I am thinking about doctrines of ripeness and judicial restraint.
I think they presented their case just fine, leaving room for the court to opt for CC where OC is not available. They didn't budge. We'll see if they budge with Norman, a case WITH a clear split.
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  #407  
Old 09-19-2017, 2:52 PM
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It's a race against time. Either mid terms or 2020 could tip the balance back to the Progs. Ginsberg is half dead and Kennedy has mentioned retirement. If these seats open, Trump could fill those vacancies and end up with a 2A court.
Kennedy won't leave - Trump pissed him off
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  #408  
Old 09-19-2017, 3:05 PM
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Kennedy won't leave - Trump pissed him off
And neither will Ginsberg - she is having too much fun.
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  #409  
Old 09-19-2017, 4:19 PM
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Default Peruta v. County of San Diego (CCW) [CERT *DENIED* 6/26/17] PART II

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Kennedy won't leave - Trump pissed him off


Trump has pissed everyone off at some point.


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  #410  
Old 09-19-2017, 4:20 PM
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And neither will Ginsberg - she is having too much fun.


Ginsberg won't walk out. She'll be carried out in a box.


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  #411  
Old 09-19-2017, 5:51 PM
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Ginsberg won't walk out. She'll be carried out in a box.


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It's probably already weekend at Bernie's for that one.
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  #412  
Old 09-19-2017, 10:42 PM
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It's probably already weekend at Bernie's for that one.


Yah Pelosi and Schumer will spend the 6 months hauling her around and propping her up.


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  #413  
Old 09-21-2017, 5:57 PM
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Ginsberg’s body will just be permanently placed somewhere. Kind of like a Halloween decoration.
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  #414  
Old 09-21-2017, 6:14 PM
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Ginsberg’s body will just be permanently placed somewhere. Kind of like a Halloween decoration.


They are going to prop her up on the whitehouse lawn.


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  #415  
Old 09-22-2017, 9:22 AM
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Ginsberg’s body will just be permanently placed somewhere. Kind of like a Halloween decoration.
You guys are mean.

I hope she lives the rest of her life in happiness, with her husband, in New Zealand...like she said she would!

Scram scarecrow!
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  #416  
Old 09-28-2017, 6:10 AM
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So is this dead or holding pattern?

Also how difficult is it to get a CCW in San Diego currently?
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  #417  
Old 09-28-2017, 6:25 AM
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Another question that I need clarification on.

2nd amendment says the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. Wouldn’t CCW and open carry be bearing of arms?
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  #418  
Old 09-28-2017, 9:43 AM
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Dead

Not "Princess Bride" dead - really dead.

Yes - both are bearing of arms. There are old SCOTUS precedents that upheld laws banning CCW - as long as open carry was allowed.

9CA has purposefully dodged this issue - with open carry now illegal, the State of CA has a policy preference for CCW. In either case, if the ability to exercise the right is not available as a practical matter (see original 3-judge panel decision in Peruta) that would be deemed to violate the 2A.

The 9CA simply doesn't recognize 2A rights - only 2A privileges.

And so far, for whatever reason, since McDonald, SCOTUS has not taken the opportunity to correct the splits that have developed in the Circuits below - some of which have refused to adhere to the clear language in Heller and McDonald.

In my opinion, since the Courts have refused to act, Congress should pass civil rights legislation essentially codifying Heller. 2A IS a fundamental, individual right. Anything that infringes on the core must be stricken. Anything outside the core must be subjected to truly heightened scrutiny (not rational basis dressed up as intermediate scrutiny) with narrow tailoring and a compelling government interest. Most of CA's more recent gun laws could never live up to this standard.
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  #419  
Old 09-28-2017, 9:51 AM
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Originally Posted by gryffinwings View Post
Another question that I need clarification on.

2nd amendment says the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. Wouldn’t CCW and open carry be bearing of arms?
Hmmm, great point, I had never thought of it that way. We should finally have a discussion about that
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  #420  
Old 09-28-2017, 10:32 AM
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The architects of the assault weapon bans ... are simply trying to fight the Culture War. And we can't win, not in California anyway because you guys, the ones with the most to lose, refuse to do what you need to do to win the Culture Wars, which is to make Calguns and the gun rights community a truly big tent and stop driving people away simply because they are different from you.
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  #421  
Old 09-28-2017, 10:33 AM
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Hmmm, great point, I had never thought of it that way. We should finally have a discussion about that
Honestly, there is historical precedent that points out that bearing arms includes carrying. I'll have to research what I've read about it to point it out, I'll likely do that this evening and post it.
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  #422  
Old 09-28-2017, 12:42 PM
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Look at the Ginsburg dissent in Heller
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  #423  
Old 09-28-2017, 3:28 PM
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Originally Posted by gryffinwings View Post
Honestly, there is historical precedent that points out that bearing arms includes carrying. I'll have to research what I've read about it to point it out, I'll likely do that this evening and post it.
I think you missed a certain amount of sarcasm in some responses. The subject has been discussed extensively here on Calguns (including in this thread), in popular press, law review articles, and court opinions. Look at the dissent from denial of cert on this very case just a few months back from Gorsuch and Thomas.

EDIT to add link to dissent: https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinion...6-894_p86b.pdf

Last edited by Cortelli; 09-28-2017 at 5:15 PM.. Reason: Edit to add link to Dissent on Denial of Cert
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Old 09-28-2017, 4:52 PM
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Cortelli is correct.
The historical precedent you likely saw gryffinwings is in the Heller decision; keep and bear are both individually defined on pages 8-18.
The sarcasm/ribbing is because you're preaching to the choir, but you're correct in your interpretation of the Second Amendment.
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The architects of the assault weapon bans ... are simply trying to fight the Culture War. And we can't win, not in California anyway because you guys, the ones with the most to lose, refuse to do what you need to do to win the Culture Wars, which is to make Calguns and the gun rights community a truly big tent and stop driving people away simply because they are different from you.
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  #425  
Old 09-28-2017, 6:57 PM
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Cortelli is correct.
The historical precedent you likely saw gryffinwings is in the Heller decision; keep and bear are both individually defined on pages 8-18.
The sarcasm/ribbing is because you're preaching to the choir, but you're correct in your interpretation of the Second Amendment.
Obviously I was preaching, but I was also making sure I wasn't going clinically insane due hearing and seeing so much insanity in this state since being stationed here.
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  #426  
Old 10-05-2017, 10:57 AM
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Obviously I was preaching, but I was also making sure I wasn't going clinically insane due hearing and seeing so much insanity in this state since being stationed here.
If you are like the rest of us sane individuals it could well be easy to feel in bizarro world to think after 200+ years that people could misinterpret the shortest Amendment in the Bill of Rights.
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Old 10-05-2017, 10:41 PM
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So now that DC is eating the loss do we have any indication if Peruta is going to petition rehearing of certiorari denial? I think Nichols is the cleaner case, so I'd understand focus on that but curious if anyone from the legal team can comment on this.
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The architects of the assault weapon bans ... are simply trying to fight the Culture War. And we can't win, not in California anyway because you guys, the ones with the most to lose, refuse to do what you need to do to win the Culture Wars, which is to make Calguns and the gun rights community a truly big tent and stop driving people away simply because they are different from you.
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  #428  
Old 10-06-2017, 7:31 AM
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We can pretty much put a fork into this case, it's done.
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Old 10-06-2017, 8:53 AM
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This case is done and there is nothing that can bring it back to life. The cycle ends at the Supreme Court with just one attempt. No second bite of the apple.

There are other cases coming up. Also, we can easily refile a case identical to Peruta. We can even use the same plaintiffs and exactly the same copy-paste language. It will get denied quickly due to Peruta and we'll have a fresh new loss at CA-9 to appeal to the Supreme Court.
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Old 10-06-2017, 10:22 AM
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...we can easily refile a case identical to Peruta. We can even use the same plaintiffs and exactly the same copy-paste language. It will get denied quickly due to Peruta and we'll have a fresh new loss at CA-9 to appeal to the Supreme Court.
I didn't know this. It would be nice if RBG does what she promised and moves to New Zealand since Trump got elected, then replace her and do exactly this.
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Old 10-06-2017, 1:07 PM
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Originally Posted by IVC View Post
This case is done and there is nothing that can bring it back to life. The cycle ends at the Supreme Court with just one attempt. No second bite of the apple.
Peruta is most likely over, and Nichols v Brown is probably the case to watch for 9th circuit. I agree other cases are far more likely but your statement above is factually incorrect. Denial of certiorari normally means a case is completely dead, but in some rare cases a petition for rehearing on certiorari denial has been accepted; second bites at SCOTUS do exist.
From Bruhl, Aaron-Andrew P., "When Is Finality... Final? Rehearing and Resurrection in the Supreme Court" (2011):
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A second interesting feature of finality in the Supreme Court -and another point of entry for judicial discretion- is that a denial of certiorari might itself turn out not to be truly final. That is because the Court's rules allow a disappointed litigant to file a petition for rehearing of the denial of certiorari. Many litigants file petitions for rehearing, and it is usually a futile gesture. But it sometimes bears fruit. Perhaps the most notable recent grant of rehearing was the Court's decision, in June 2007, to grant certiorari on rehearing in two Guantanamo detainee cases after the Court had denied certiorari a few months before. — (Bruhl 3)
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The architects of the assault weapon bans ... are simply trying to fight the Culture War. And we can't win, not in California anyway because you guys, the ones with the most to lose, refuse to do what you need to do to win the Culture Wars, which is to make Calguns and the gun rights community a truly big tent and stop driving people away simply because they are different from you.
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