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California handguns Discuss your favorite California handgun technical and related questions here. |
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#122
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For every time you name, the military, who actually studied this for years, can show you many more where the 9mm was a better choice. Nothing is perfect and if you cherry pick, you can always find the exception, but overall, 9mm is the right choice for a general service pistol. And combat has proven that over and over.
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#123
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Can you show me stories or studies or statistics showing Glocks plastic frames have failed or reached the end of life? I'm just curious here. Prove me wrong and I'll admit it. |
#124
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#125
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You mean pictures with blown up Glock frames?
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#126
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Not so . I qualified that with "an effective killer" which .22LR is certainly not but 9mm is. Ballistic tests put penetration and killing power of 9mm, 40, and 45 very, very close.
And, BTW, the perp in the FL incident you mentioned was using .357 magnum, not some sissy .45 ACP. So if you hold that up, I hear you really saying we need a .357 Sig pistol for the general service pistol (ballistically equivalent to a .357 magnum with 155 grain bullets).
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#128
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Polymer doesn't have to match steel or even aluminum exactly in every single parameter. We can design it to achieve the same lifespan. |
#130
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FBI agents used .38 and 9mm mostly, which wasn't very effective. .45ACP ballistics looks much better.
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#131
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I really doubt you can design a polymer with the lifespan on aluminum for this particular purpose. You'd become the richest man in the world, if you succeeded.
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#132
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Only in the laboratory under controlled circumstances. If what you state was true, when the average police officer stepped down from .357 Magnum to 9mm or .40, their lethality should have dropped as well. It didn't. At all. The caliber debate 9 vs 40 vs 45 has legs but the reality is settled: for most circumstances 9mm is every bit as effective and most of it's failure are more a failure to put a round on target than the caliber. The one weakness of 9mm is it glances off car windshields and doesn't penetrate barrier as well as 40 or 45, other than that, it a very effective round 99% of the time.
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Benefactor Life Member NRA, Life Member CRPA, CGN Contributor, US Army Veteran, Black Ribbon in Memoriam for the deceased 2nd Amendment |
#135
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Give them something in polymer, enough making them lug around metal framed pistols already.
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Host of the FAST OC podcast. |
#136
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And you'd be biased and wrong if you did that.
But some people fixate on some simple way to make a differentiation—even if it is not realistically valid because they need simplicity. Just like anti-gun people decide black rifles are scary and therefore must be banned even though all rifles kill a tiny number of people every year. You need to try to be more rational and use measurable and objective standards to make your judgment, not what feels macho or feels better for your ego. If you did, you'd realize that 9mm in the field is every bit as effective as .45 ACP. But if carrying a bigger caliber makes you feel more of a man, knock yourself out—just realize there is no objective factual support for it over 9mm—just your ego. But it's a free country, carry what floats your boat.
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Benefactor Life Member NRA, Life Member CRPA, CGN Contributor, US Army Veteran, Black Ribbon in Memoriam for the deceased 2nd Amendment Last edited by advocatusdiaboli; 04-25-2014 at 4:11 PM.. |
#137
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With my limited knowledge in guns, I know a Glock slide is riding on steel guides embedded into the polymer frame. The recoil spring is between a steel locking block(?) and the steel slide. The steel locking block/insert is somehow wedged against the polymer frame. That pressure can be designed to spread across a relative large area to decrease stress on the polymer frame. The polymer frame itself is relatively strong and more flexible than steel, which may be a good thing. The accuracy of a pistol is from the barrel and the slide fit. The frame can be bent and the pistol can still remain accurate. I again ask for some numbers of Glock failures from material exhaustion. I want to know why other nations are so stupid in copying the Glock design and adopting Glocks for use in militaries and police use. Personally, I'm not a fan of polymer guns. I have a Glock 19 but don't really enjoy it. I enjoy my P226 way more, and am much more accurate with it. I'm merely thinking in terms of a very large organizational purchase. |
#138
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Benefactor Life Member NRA, Life Member CRPA, CGN Contributor, US Army Veteran, Black Ribbon in Memoriam for the deceased 2nd Amendment Last edited by advocatusdiaboli; 04-25-2014 at 4:28 PM.. |
#139
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Have you ever run into a brick wall? Not a good thing. What if you run into a wall that gives, like the boards in a hockey rink? Less damage to you. Sometimes it might be better to not have structural rigidity. Glocks have been around for 30 years and adopted by many militaries and police agencies around the world. Steyr AUG is combat proven by the Australians. HK Mk 23 is chosen by our own Special Operations. They must know something. |
#140
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Those nations under-fund their military and, while their people are darn good operators, I have the feeling they get inferior equipment because they are called on to do far less than ours are. I admit that is more personal point of view than objective fact, but steel is certainly more abrasion and compression resistant (as well as tension resistant) than polymer. Color me skeptical but open-minded. But where my life would be in the balance, open-minded can get you killed.
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#142
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We know a Sig will fail at the frame rail. That's the weakest part of the entire gun. The rail will actually start to split from the frame. That's when the gun has to be retired, provided all other wearable parts are replaced at recommended intervals. I wouldn't call Aussies underfunded or deployed less often than our guys. They are responsible for the south Pacific and participate in many combat operations around the world with UN and NATO and our guys. They might be the 2nd or 3rd most often deployed UN contingent behind the Canucks. |
#144
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I think M11 would be ideal. Many military organizations already use it, and I'd take it over a M9 every day of the week.
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#146
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Giddy Up! Go West and use plastics in your pistols young man! You'll get rich and soldiers will die but what do you care? Go now!
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Benefactor Life Member NRA, Life Member CRPA, CGN Contributor, US Army Veteran, Black Ribbon in Memoriam for the deceased 2nd Amendment Last edited by advocatusdiaboli; 04-25-2014 at 6:14 PM.. |
#148
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At least both are steel. I'd rather trust my life to steel than plastic.
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Benefactor Life Member NRA, Life Member CRPA, CGN Contributor, US Army Veteran, Black Ribbon in Memoriam for the deceased 2nd Amendment |
#150
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Polymer do fail. The BP dude fell off ATV and broke the handle of his P2000.
At the same time, AL bike frames do fail with fatigue cracks. http://loadoutroom.com/3817/when-pol...fail-hk-p2000/ |
#152
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#153
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M9 and P226 frames are AL while Glock is polymer. More food for thought is that Glock rails are steel embedded in the polymer while the M9 and P226 rails are AL. Note that the Walther P38/P1 has AL frame cracks from where the barrel slams against it. It was reinforced in the late production P1 and the follow-on P4 with a steel cross pin. Admittedly, this is more of an engineering boo-boo than a material problem. So the question is, does any slamming happen to my P226 frame? I don't think so. The forces are taken by the steel piece that Sig calls the "Front Chassis", similar in idea to the steel cross pin in the P1/P4s. Last edited by penguin0123; 04-25-2014 at 6:49 PM.. |
#154
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Glock slides might be steel but the other side of that load bearing contact (with equal pressure on it) is a flimsy piece of steel embedded in the polymer frame. And that is sketchy. It won't stand up to real punishment like all steel and you know it.
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Benefactor Life Member NRA, Life Member CRPA, CGN Contributor, US Army Veteran, Black Ribbon in Memoriam for the deceased 2nd Amendment |
#155
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Only safe guns. I hear kalifornia has a nice list of safe guns.
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NRA Life Member since 1990 They're not liberals, they're leftists. Please don't use the former for the latter. Liberals are Locke, Jefferson, Burke, Hayek. Leftists are progressives, Prussian state-socialists, fascists. Liberals stand against the state and unequivocally support liberty. Leftists support state tyranny. |
#156
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Yep. All tyrants set themselves up as the authority when they start to disarm the populace "for the good of the people and the children". They know what is safe though, with proper exemptions or previously owning it, you can still have odd-Roster guns and use them legally.
The Roster is not about pistol control, it's about people control—who can buy a pistol and their plan is working the way they envisioned: the Roster is shrinking daily. And soon there will be few pistols left on it.
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Benefactor Life Member NRA, Life Member CRPA, CGN Contributor, US Army Veteran, Black Ribbon in Memoriam for the deceased 2nd Amendment |
#158
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They also buy MK25s by the gross. They buy specific tools for operational needs. So what. When that tiny bit of polymer that holds the rails for the slide cracks due to the side stresses on it in combat, you'll get your 21 rounds and your mom/widow will get the brass and the flag. No thanks.
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Benefactor Life Member NRA, Life Member CRPA, CGN Contributor, US Army Veteran, Black Ribbon in Memoriam for the deceased 2nd Amendment Last edited by advocatusdiaboli; 04-25-2014 at 7:50 PM.. |
#159
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No so what, just pointing out a polymer framed pistol in use by our armed forces. Hk45ct/Mk24. Before that, the mk23. As you mentioned, they also buy metal framed mk25's and metal framed M11's, and metal framed sig 239's. The point is, both metal and polymer framed handguns are being put to the test by our best. If the were failing, they wouldn't be using them.
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#160
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