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Centerfire Rifles - Manually Operated Lever action, bolt action or other non gas operated centerfire rifles.

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  #41  
Old 05-16-2018, 5:29 AM
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Originally Posted by ar15barrels View Post
With most stocks, a medium palma or rem varmint will balance better than an M24 or M40 unless you cut the M24 or M40 really short.

You need a really heavy stock to balance a heavier barrel.
The barrel length plays into this as well as the stock weight and stock CG.
There's no single right answer as all the parts depend on each other.

A 20" M24 or M40 barrel balances significantly different than a 26" M24 or M40 barrel given the same stock.

A 26" Rem Varmint or Medium Palma might balance really similar to a 20" M24 or M40 though.
Randall, from your experience, how much does overall balance play into larger builds that will always be shot prone or from bench. Reason I'm asking is I'm starting a build in either 338 Lapua or 300 Norma. Initial thought is that to help maintain site picture and also my degrading shoulder, contours such as Heavy Varmint would make sense. What balance issues could I run into when pairing this barrel setup (say 26") with stocks such as a McMillan A% or Manners T4?
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  #42  
Old 05-16-2018, 6:19 AM
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Kblack583
A front end heavy gun will shoot just as good as a balanced gun BUT it is so much work to shoot it isn't worth it.
The barrel contours and length you are talking about are relatively light for a competition rifle but seem extremely heavy if your used to a hunting type rifle.
I have zero experience with the stocks you mentioned but the picture is of a Tooley MBR stock Remington 700 action and a 28 inch max heavy varmint barrel in 338 Lapua Ackley Improved.
I am inletting the stock by hand so no recoil lug in the picture and lots of tape.
If it doesn't balance I will remove the buttpad and fill with lead shot and epoxy until it does.
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  #43  
Old 05-16-2018, 10:41 AM
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Originally Posted by kblack583 View Post
Randall, from your experience, how much does overall balance play into larger builds that will always be shot prone or from bench. Reason I'm asking is I'm starting a build in either 338 Lapua or 300 Norma. Initial thought is that to help maintain site picture and also my degrading shoulder, contours such as Heavy Varmint would make sense. What balance issues could I run into when pairing this barrel setup (say 26") with stocks such as a McMillan A% or Manners T4?
I have seen such heavy barrels used with lightweight stocks to the point that the stock only had a few ounces keeping it from teetering on the bipod and going muzzle down on the bench/ground.

You want the back of the gun to be heavy enough to sit still.
If you don't have enough weight in the back, don't go with too much weight in front...
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  #44  
Old 05-16-2018, 12:32 PM
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The Markansamafterwork youtube guys add weight to the back with a piece of solid steel roundbar cut to fit the stock as a bagrider. Dual purpose low cost accessory.
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  #45  
Old 05-16-2018, 5:33 PM
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Here is one of my heavygun stocks setup for a 1.750 diameter barrel 34 inches long showing the round stainless bars. They add weight but they also keep the gun from rocking side to side. If your stock has a flat bottom banging the bolt open and closed will make the sand buildup in the middle of the bag and hurt accuracy.
By placing two points apart from each other sand buildup in the middle doesn't allow any rocking motion.
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  #46  
Old 05-16-2018, 6:17 PM
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Originally Posted by LynnJr View Post
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Kblack583
A front end heavy gun will shoot just as good as a balanced gun BUT it is so much work to shoot it isn't worth it.
The barrel contours and length you are talking about are relatively light for a competition rifle but seem extremely heavy if your used to a hunting type rifle.
I have zero experience with the stocks you mentioned but the picture is of a Tooley MBR stock Remington 700 action and a 28 inch max heavy varmint barrel in 338 Lapua Ackley Improved.
I am inletting the stock by hand so no recoil lug in the picture and lots of tape.
If it doesn't balance I will remove the buttpad and fill with lead shot and epoxy until it does.
Thanks Lynn. Damn, I thought I was going really heavy with the Bartlein Heavy Varmint at 7.5 lbs. Guess I need to get to one of your shoots above Clear Lake and check out what setups are being used.
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  #47  
Old 05-16-2018, 6:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ar15barrels View Post
I have seen such heavy barrels used with lightweight stocks to the point that the stock only had a few ounces keeping it from teetering on the bipod and going muzzle down on the bench/ground.

You want the back of the gun to be heavy enough to sit still.
If you don't have enough weight in the back, don't go with too much weight in front...
Thanks Randall. Gives me some more to think about on the build.
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  #48  
Old 05-17-2018, 12:12 AM
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Kblack583
One of our shooters has some barrels 2.5 inches in diameter that are 45 or 48 Inches long weighing 67-69 pounds just for the barrel.
The picture is of my 338 Lapua Ackley Improved with a 1.750 Lilja barrel 34 inches long and the gun weighs around 45 pounds.
You can hang a 1.250 straight cylinder barrel 30 inches long off of a Remington 700 action.
If you go larger you need a barrel block or the action will flex and ruin the bedding and that will wreck your accuracy.
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Last edited by LynnJr; 07-04-2018 at 10:41 AM..
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  #49  
Old 07-11-2018, 10:20 PM
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Just a quick update. I ordered a shouldered barrel from patriot valley arms today. I ordered it in a m24 contour with a 26 finished length. My action is still on track to ship mid next month. The wait sucks, but I should have all of my parts ready when I get it out of dros. All thats left is a trigger. Im gonna use my pst gen 2 until I save up for a better scope.
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  #50  
Old 07-11-2018, 10:43 PM
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I ordered a shouldered barrel from patriot valley arms today.
I ordered it in a m24 contour with a 26 finished length.
My action is still on track to ship mid next month.
The wait sucks, but I should have all of my parts ready when I get it out of dros.
Is your action shipping to patriot valley arms so they can thread the barrel and chamber the barrel to match your action/bolt and then they are shipping the barreled action on to your FFL?
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  #51  
Old 07-11-2018, 11:58 PM
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Originally Posted by ar15barrels View Post
Is your action shipping to patriot valley arms so they can thread the barrel and chamber the barrel to match your action/bolt and then they are shipping the barreled action on to your FFL?
no, he's prefitting the barrel. He said that since bighorn/zermatt makes such consistent actions, he's able to chamber and thread it. He said that of the hundreds of tl3s that he's measured, they were all within .0003" of each other and that the new origins will be held to the same standards. We'll how it goes, he has a really good reputation.
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  #52  
Old 07-12-2018, 10:33 AM
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Wonder if that's also true of most/all custom actions.
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  #53  
Old 07-12-2018, 10:44 AM
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Originally Posted by sigstroker View Post
Wonder if that's also true of most/all custom actions.
In my experience, it's not.
It's common for actions to be within 0.003" across a model, but 0.0003" is exceedingly rare as most companies simply don't work to those tolerances as there is little to be gained from doing so.
BAT machine is the only one I have run into with consistent headspace across multiple copies of a single model.

I could probably go look at some of my TL3 build sheets and see if they are consistent as well though.
It's entirely possible that they are and I just didn't notice as I measure every one right before I fit a barrel and I don't need to remember the dimensions since they are written down.
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  #54  
Old 07-12-2018, 11:36 AM
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This is a good educational thread! Thanks Krilla for posting it. I'm kinda in the same boat. looking to order a barreled action from PVA. I'm leaning towards the ARC Nucleus, with heavy palma and shouldered install with Barloc. PVA is offering 3 extra barrels for a lower price. i may go that route.

Just need to save some more $ and wait 'til all the kinks get worked out on manufacturer's end.
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  #55  
Old 07-12-2018, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by kriller134 View Post
no, he's prefitting the barrel. He said that since bighorn/zermatt makes such consistent actions, he's able to chamber and thread it. He said that of the hundreds of tl3s that he's measured, they were all within .0003" of each other and that the new origins will be held to the same standards. We'll how it goes, he has a really good reputation.
Even with headspace being consistent, you can't index the bore runout to 12:00 with a pre-fit barrel like a high-end barrel fitting job.
That can only be done when the barrel is fitted to a specific action.
Pre-fit barrels also have to be fitted looser to ensure they will actually thread-in to the reciever.
Lapped fits like how a benchrest gun are built are not possible with a pre-fit barrel.
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  #56  
Old 07-12-2018, 3:09 PM
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Originally Posted by sigstroker View Post
Wonder if that's also true of most/all custom actions.


From my understanding, zermatt is an iso certified aerospace machine shop first and foremost. Being iso certified, they are held to certain standards and that translates into their actions. If you listen the precision rifle media podcast Josh from pva goes over it a bit.
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  #57  
Old 07-12-2018, 3:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ar15barrels View Post
Even with headspace being consistent, you can't index the bore runout to 12:00 with a pre-fit barrel like a high-end barrel fitting job.

That can only be done when the barrel is fitted to a specific action.

Pre-fit barrels also have to be fitted looser to ensure they will actually thread-in to the reciever.

Lapped fits like how a benchrest gun are built are not possible with a pre-fit barrel.

If it turns out that this barrel is a dud, Ill be bringing you a blank for you to spin on for me. Then you can tell me I told you so and Ill humbly take it
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  #58  
Old 07-12-2018, 8:08 PM
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Originally Posted by kriller134 View Post
From my understanding, zermatt is an iso certified aerospace machine shop first and foremost. Being iso certified, they are held to certain standards and that translates into their actions. If you listen the precision rifle media podcast Josh from pva goes over it a bit.
It depends on what kind of iso certification it is. There are lots of different types. I was in an iso certified place while they were getting certified. Their emphasis was on consistency of methodology. That doesn't mean the end product is necessarily good, just that the methodology getting there is the same every time.
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  #59  
Old 07-12-2018, 9:37 PM
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It depends on what kind of iso certification it is. There are lots of different types. I was in an iso certified place while they were getting certified. Their emphasis was on consistency of methodology. That doesn't mean the end product is necessarily good, just that the methodology getting there is the same every time.
Exactly.
ISO is mostly about documentation, specifications and checking that parts meet specifications.
You can correctly document and make crap as long as the crap you make meets the crappy specs you claim.
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