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  #41  
Old 12-17-2012, 12:20 PM
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ZombieTactics ZombieTactics is offline
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I am unaware of any special "rate card" for instructors based upon their past acts of derring-do or military qualifications. Did I not get the memo or something? Last time I checked, its was pretty much a free-market thing ... whatever the market will bear. If you can get the rate, get it. Or perhaps an alternate business plan calls for a different student-to-instructor ratio and charges accordingly. That's a business decision, not an indicator of anyone's "awesomeness".

The notion of a "Tier One" background being a singular qualifier for fitness to teach strikes me odd, especially if the subject is self-defense in non-military circumstances. Of course, it's alternately suggested that only champion competition shooters can lay claim to that mantle. Check some of the competition forums and see how they make fun of what they call "Tactical Timmies" ... apparently being a genuine war hero means nothing as long you can shoot paper targets like a pro? Seems like a lot of adolescent posturing to me, and neither position seems to hold much logical weight.

I can't think of a single area of human endeavor - athletic or otherwise - where the very best performers usually make the very best teachers or coaches. Often the best teachers and coaches turn out to be so-so performers or have little in the way of awesome credentials ... aside from the fact that they can bring out the best in their students.

Béla Károlyi was a hammer-thrower and a boxer, and failed miserably at meeting even minimal low-level, standards at gymnastics ... I guess he wasn't "Tier One" enough to coach Nadia Comăneci, Mary Lou Retton, Betty Okino, Teodora Ungureanu, Kim Zmeskal, Kristie Phillips, Dominique Moceanu, and Kerri Strug, huh?

My kid's soccer trainer was a pro player of little renown ... pretty good trainer. Their coach is just an adult enthusiast ... and a much better teacher. I guess all those district cup wins are meaningless, not enough "Tier One" instruction.

Bobby Jackson used to be a neighbor of mine. Awesome skills, helluva decent guy ... could not coach basketball to save his life, from what I've witnessed personally.

Martina Navratilova's tennis coach never won anything of note as a player, from what I am told ... and that's far more common story in most sports than the opposite.

What is so special and unique about firearms training that only awesome death dealers need apply? Why is it different than anything and everything else? There are heroes on every police force (my nephew gave his all, thanks) and great shooters on every range. My training checkbook gets opened for educational value, not the chance to "stand in the presence of awesome".

I have no doubt that the likes of Vickers and others are excellent instructors, as they've gained reputations as instructors. Is there anything so unique about what they teach that their methods are completely unknown to anyone else ... or impossible to be taught except by those with Tier One experience? Believe or not, they have their detractors as well ... full of venom and spite, for reasons every bit as oblique and unfathomable. I can't say I place much faith in content-less, snarky attempts at character assassination ... regardless of source or target.
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Last edited by ZombieTactics; 12-17-2012 at 5:24 PM..
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  #42  
Old 12-17-2012, 5:32 PM
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ZT, you are more gracious than I.... and appreciate you taking the time to entertain Paul's hating.
I know a lot of guys with "cool t-shirt" backgrounds that suck as instructors. You'll note that most don't enter the instructor field, despite the tons of people eager to say they trained with someone with Tier 1 Experience. I also know a lot of guys with no background who are great instructors.

***


Paul, you are very confused about a lot of things. Your hate has made you drift a bit.... your post is inaccurate and baiting and I don't have time for either this evening. If you have anything to ask about the home study course, feel free to ask.

****

Ram,

You've got my answers. CFS class is a pre-requisite. It is so for both safety and efficiency.

-RJP
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  #43  
Old 12-17-2012, 11:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Rob Pincus View Post

Ram,

You've got my answers. CFS class is a pre-requisite. It is so for both safety and efficiency.
Got it.

Unfortunately, the Fundamentals of Combat Focus Shooting course is not offered in SoCal in 2013 prior to the APH in Los Angeles in August 2013.

I don't see Jeff Varner or much of anything from 10X Defense any more.
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  #44  
Old 12-17-2012, 11:33 PM
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Rob Pincus should be allowed to market his wares just like anyone else no matter if you agree with him or not. Larry Vickers said it best on M4C:

Quote:

You guys need to remember that Rob Pincus markets to a different audience - years ago Ken and I talked about it and he reminded me and now I am reminding all of you that the mere fact that you visit a tactical firearms and training forum like M4C puts you in a very select category - there are untold thousands of shooters that never visit a firearms forum

Think of it is this way ; how many NASCAR fans do you think there are ( some I'm sure even on M4C ) vs how many fans regularly visit a NASCAR Internet forum to discuss all the details of the sport ?

Pincus is marketing himself to a totally different audience and frankly Im sure he could care less that serious shooters on M4C don't like his training techniques

Obviously his approach is not my cup of tea but it is a free country - he is free to do and say what he wants ; as are all of you

Be safe

LAV
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  #45  
Old 12-18-2012, 8:26 AM
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Originally Posted by ZombieTactics View Post
I am unaware of any special "rate card" for instructors...
I took Paul's comment as being you don't go to those trainers because you are worried about price, you go to them because of what they have done and what you can learn from them. If you are climbing Everest you don't ask the REI guy what to wear, you go to the SME's that have actually been there and done it. Now if you are going for a day hike you could ask the REI guy and be fine. I'm sure the Everest dude would yield more though even for the same task...

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Originally Posted by ZombieTactics View Post
...snarky attempts ...
The 20 student thing is an obvious attempt. Paul merely returned accurate and effective fire.


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Originally Posted by Ramzar
I don't see Jeff Varner or much of anything from 10X Defense any more.
In some of the CFS videos on youtube the main instructor I think was Omari Broussard.
http://www.vikingcombatives.com/Pers...alifornia.html
--edit-- oh wow I guess it was a 2011 schedule, didn't see that. Nevermind!

Last edited by GM_77; 12-18-2012 at 8:29 AM..
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  #46  
Old 12-18-2012, 8:43 AM
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Originally Posted by GM_77 View Post
In some of the CFS videos on youtube the main instructor I think was Omari Broussard.
http://www.vikingcombatives.com/Pers...alifornia.html
--edit-- oh wow I guess it was a 2011 schedule, didn't see that. Nevermind!
I was going to say 2011 but you corrected it.

They currently have no CFS Intro or Fundamentals classes scheduled for SoCal in 2013:

http://combatfocusshooting.com/calen...n/3/California

Also, that Jeff Varner guy is no longer an active CFS instructor:

http://combatfocusshooting.com/instructors
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  #47  
Old 12-18-2012, 9:36 AM
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Originally Posted by GM_77 View Post
... If you are climbing Everest you don't ask the REI guy what to wear, you go to the SME's that have actually been there and done it. Now if you are going for a day hike you could ask the REI guy and be fine. I'm sure the Everest dude would yield more though even for the same task ...
This is an excellent analogy for the most part, but I think it actually serves to make my point. The "Tier One" trainers suggested are undeniably SMEs in various kinds of team tactics and military techniques. If that's what you want to learn or experience, then you have found your instructors. Who could argue otherwise?

But it's an open question as to which of them are SMEs for the types of self-defense situations most likely to be encountered by civilians, lacking team support or combat load-outs. Certainly that's not a pejorative question or observation, or is it?

It's kind of drag-racing vs. F1 vs. NASCAR, isn't it? It doesn't make sense to say that someone who is a respected NASCAR figure can't teach NASCAR, because they never won a drag race.

Like it or not, Pincus does indeed have the respect of many important and established authorities in the self-defense training field. If you consider the opinions of people like Mike Seeklander, Mas Ayoob, Claude Werner, etc. to be "worthless", then I leave you to your rarefied sensibilities. What it means in any specific case is open to interpretation.

I don't consider myself to be a "defender" of Rob Pincus.I absolutely disagree with some of what he teaches. That's a subject for conversation, research and further study. Rational people don't start feuds over such things. In that respect, you have to admire the professional bearing of someone like LAV concerning these kinds of questions. Nobody is the "all seeing, all knowing" guru on these matters ... not even guys with Tier One military experience.

I take issue with baseless bashing and unnecessary drama, however. Maybe a little more mutual (even if grudging) respect and "staying in your own damned lane" is called for.
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Last edited by ZombieTactics; 12-18-2012 at 11:06 AM..
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  #48  
Old 12-18-2012, 11:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZombieTactics View Post
This is an excellent analogy for the most part, but I think it actually serves to make my point. The "Tier One" trainers suggested are undeniably SMEs in various kinds of team tactics and military techniques. If that's what you want to learn or experience, then you have found your instructors. Who could argue otherwise?

But it's an open question as to which of them are SMEs for the types of self-defense situations most likely to be encountered by civilians, lacking team support or combat load-outs. Certainly that's not a pejorative question or observation, or is it?

It's kind of drag-racing vs. F1 vs. NASCAR, isn't it? It doesn't make sense to say that someone who is a respected NASCAR figure can't teach NASCAR, because they never won a drag race.

Like it or not, Pincus does indeed have the respect of many important and established authorities in the self-defense training field. If you consider the opinions of people like Mike Seeklander, Mas Ayoob, Claude Werner, etc. to be "worthless", then I leave you to your rarefied sensibilities. What it means in any specific case is open to interpretation.

I don't consider myself to be a "defender" of Rob Pincus.I absolutely disagree with some of what he teaches. That's a subject for conversation, research and further study. Rational people don't start feuds over such things. In that respect, you have to admire the professional bearing of someone like LAV concerning these kinds of questions. Nobody is the "all seeing, all knowing" guru on these matters ... not even guys with Tier One military experience.

I take issue with baseless bashing and unnecessary drama, however.
First of all your comments are either woefully ignorant or you are purposefully trying trivialize the training, skills, and capabilities of true Special Operations personnel. I’ve noticed many times that guys who would like to discount or trivialize SO experience often reference only “Team Tactics” & “Military Support”. Same reason they use passive-aggressive quotes “ “ around the word “Tier 1”. They are trying to infer that all they did is dress in black and fast rope out of helicopters. Unfortunately for them and our nation’s enemies this is absolutely false. They receive extensive training & operational experience in extremely hostile environment covert/concealed carry, diplomatic security, low vis (Blending in) operations, etc, etc, etc. They regularly operate in extremely small groups or even alone. Help (QRF) might be hours away or even days away.

You don’t have to be the sharpest tool in the shed to realize these skills correlate directly to civilian training classes; covert/concealed carry = civilian concealed carry, diplomatic security = personal defense/defense of family, Low Vis Operations = civilian concealed carry, CQB = Home Defense, etc, etc.

Not to forget their adherence to very high accuracy standards in classes verses “Fighting” = “Good Enough” accuracy. If you are forced to defend your home with your family in the next room or forced to defend yourself in a crowded mall do you want to have been trained by one of the world’s finest handgun shooters or a guy who shoots into a berm to avoid showing you he has boringly average weapon skills?

Hint #1: The topic of this thread isn’t about a standard how to shoot Handgun or Carbine class. It’s about “Counter-Ambush”. A rather specialized topic if you ask me.

Hint #2: I only got involved because I noticed the names being thrown around are friends & business associates of mine. Rest assured they will not be used to sell somebody else’s classes.

Hint #3: My statements were spot on. Trust me.

I am done with this conversation.
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Last edited by va_dinger; 12-19-2012 at 11:43 AM..
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  #49  
Old 12-18-2012, 11:20 AM
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I believe its a question of credibility. Can an firearm instructor teach without ever seeing combat? Sure of course he can. Could be a good one too. But if that instructor invents or adopts out of the norm techniques or tactics or creates a program that is beyond his knowledge base than anyone has a right to question it. That is fair. I'd rather learn about business from Warren Buffet than the local community college business professor who's never run a business.

As for ZT's coach analogy, I can say Freddy Roach was a lousy boxer and he has trained many a champion, David Ledbetter (to my knowledge) never amounted to much as a golfer but he (at least when I was following golf over a decade ago) was one of the most sought after coaches in golf. All the top players including Tiger (when he was unstoppable) seeked him out. The difference between sport coaches and firearm instructors is night and day. If Tiger or Pac-Man receive poor training or some new invented technique what happens? They lose a large purse, metal, belt, ranking and so on. Ultimately its not a big deal in the grand scheme of things. If one receives poor instructor of some unproven technique in firefight, that is something entirely different. That can cost you or someone around you their life. At minimum it could cost you your financial livelihood or freedom. Therein lies the difference so I don't think the analogy is a good one.

Again its credibility, those listed on the this post (Lamb/ defoor/ LAV etc) have it. They have it because of the teams they were on and the combat experience the have under their belt. Does being on a team make a good instructor? Of course not. But link me one bad AAR to this thread on any of those instructors mentioned. I doubt there are many. Also many of those listed have teaching experience whether it was because the wore a green beret (which is one of their main duties teaching guerilla armies) or were a senior instructor on their team or because Tigerswan or Blackwater hired them. I could be wrong but Hackathorn has no combat experience, but I'd train with him. Why? Because he has credibility and as such is endorsed by the likes of LAV and Howe among others.

As for pricing, Pincus can demand anything he wants. My comment earlier was mentioned because its out of whack with the marketplace. Imagine if someone was looking to buy a high end car in the $100K range. What would people look at? Benz S class, BMW 7 series, Audi, Lexus, and so on. What if while looking at those cars some one mentioned that KIA had a new luxury car that was $120K. You'd do a double take and say WTF?

As for the question whether military combat equates to self defense instruction. that's a legit question. I say yes. Those with military combat experience can teach us civies a thing or two. Obviously, most if not all of us will never take on a guy with a RPG, or have to take cover from a mortar attack. But one thing these guys can tell us is mindset (its the same whether taking on a bunch of drugged out somalies or a whacko breaking into your house). They can tell you what its like to fight through the fear and overcome it. They can tell you about how you'll get tunnel vision and your eyes will poop out of your socket when you get shot at or someone is pointing a gun at you. It goes on.

I'm not sure why this question is even asked. Does one actually believe one is getting the "Delta" or "SEAL" or "SF" way when taking a course from these guys? Of course not. The tactics even in an advance course is really not much. Its basic stuff still- how to approach a corner, which knee to take, how to enter a room, etc. Pretty basic stuff for an assaulter. You don't learn about stacking up or flank an enemy's position etc. At least I haven't seen it. When I took a class with Howe he made mention in one instance this is a military scenario, now you can't do that if you're LEO or civie so this is what you have to do if you're those....

Everyone is different and is free to use their money as they see fit but for me I only have so much time and money I can spend on training. I want vetted, combat tested techniques so in the unlikely event I need to use them I will at least be confident I have a good chance of surviving. I do not need any theoretical untested fluff invented by someone who never even tried it in a competition let alone a fight. I don't have Ram's training budget nor he's incredibly impressive ammo budget to just go see for myself. I'll have to rely on reputation and the various AAR throughout the web to see who gets my money.

Back to credibility, I'll let these videos speak for themselves:


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  #50  
Old 12-18-2012, 1:57 PM
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Originally Posted by va_dinger View Post
First of all your comments are either woefully ignorant or you are purposefully trying trivialize the training, skills, and capabilities of true Special Operations personnel.
Jeez Paul, calm down a bit, OK? Whether I am ignorant or not is open to debate, but I can say with a straight face that some of my sources - from which I form my opinions - are a few steps up the chain of command from the people you promote. If they are wrong, perhaps they are ignorant as well, who knows? I tend to think people with stars ion their lapels might know a thing or two. There is no "trivializing" of anything, but rather an attempt to thoughtfully put things in a rational context. How is there any harm or insult in that, unless the expectation is unquestioning, obsequious hero worship?

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Originally Posted by va_dinger View Post
I’ve noticed many times that guys who would like to discount or trivialize SO experience often reference only “Team Tactics” & “Military Support”. Same reason they use passive-aggressive quotes “ “ around the word “Tier 1”. They are trying to infer that all they did is dress in black and fast rope out of helicopters.
I make no such implication and resent the attempt to completely mistake my comments as such. Without trivializing anything or anyone, I'd note that which should e obvious: they are all men, not deities. I'm certain they put their big-boy pants on one leg at a time like all of the rest of us. If you are suggesting some kind of worship, based upon their past deeds ... sorry, I bow to no man and only one God. His name isn't any of those you've noted.

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Originally Posted by va_dinger View Post
Unfortunately for them and our nation’s enemies this is absolutely false. They receive extensive training & operational experience in extremely hostile environment covert/concealed carry, diplomatic security, low vis (Blending in) operations, etc, etc, etc ...
It's just bizarre that you feel it necessary to include the first "Unfortunately for them and our nation’s enemies ..." ... this is a conversation, not a recruitment poster. When I need the benefit of "extensive training & operational experience in extremely hostile environment covert/concealed carry, diplomatic security, low vis (Blending in) operations" for my trip to the local mall, I'll concede your point in this regard. Until then, I'll simply note that you are actually making my case: that the training and operational experience of those you promote may have little to do with the requirements of civilians seeking training for self defense. It's still damned interesting, and it's till something I want exposure to, but it's also still a different lane. For my money, I think the experience of someone who has been an undercover narcotics agent for 10+ years might be a closer match. That's one of my instructors ... another was on a high-incident SWAT team for 20 years ... but not good enough I guess? Give it a rest.

Quote:
You don’t have to be the sharpest tool in the shed to realize these skills correlate directly to civilian training classes; covert/concealed carry = civilian concealed carry, diplomatic security = personal defense/defense of family, Low Vis Operations = civilian concealed carry, CQB = Home Defense, etc, etc.
I think you're "shoe-horning" the argument here. That's just an opinion, but you offer no compelling reasoning to believe otherwise. It's probably the case that there is overlap, but not really responsible (IMHO) to suggest that they are the same thing(s), owing to vast differences context and operational scope. However, I'm open to correction. Tell me one or two things which ONLY one of your instructors could teach me, relating directly to a citizen self-defense skill set. Is it one guy or the other one who alone knows the super secret method to surviving an armed robbery attempt? Please be specific. I'm no virgin in this respect. I've had a gun pushed up to my neck twice, and I'm still here. Wanna talk?

Quote:
If you are forced to defend your home with your family in the next room or forced to defend yourself in a crowded mall do you want to have been trained by one of the world’s finest handgun shooters or a guy who shoots into a berm to avoid showing you he has boringly average weapon skills?
See my comments earlier regarding performers vs coaches. You've given no reason to believe it works any differently in this case, aside from an unsupported assertion that it must be so. If someone is a good instructor, and teaches skill which are useful, that's the only requirement as far as am concerned. What else is required? Do my rounds get extra stopping power if I have an Alias patch on my range bag? If not, please stow the self-aggrandizing hyperbole. The experience and reputation of your associates speak for themselves, trying to oversell it doesn't do you or them proud.

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I only got involved because I noticed the names being thrown around are friends & business associates of mine. Rest assured they will not be used to sell somebody else’s classes.
Where did anyone's name get used to sell something? The names you reference were only noted by others as offering superior value or better training (than Pincus) by those who believe it to be so. You'd be better off letting them speak for themselves than trying to ride in like some kind of "white knight and defender of the faith". You and I have traded a bit of email and we had one (pleasant enough, I thought) conversation over the phone. You didn't strike me as unhinged at the time, so I have to admit that this side of you is unexpected.

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Originally Posted by va_dinger View Post
My statements were spot on. Trust me. ...
You are welcome to your opinion, and it will be considered as such. When you back it up with something aside from insults, character assassination and unsupported-assertions-presented-as-fact. they will be considered as such in that case also. Perhaps in your role as a promoter it might do you well to first note the difference.

Paul, as far as I know you are a good guy running a successful business. I have no idea why you've chosen to insert yourself into a side issue having almost nothing to to do with the nature of your business, or the very excellent people you represent. The vitriol and nastiness is unnecessary and unprovoked. It's enough that you do good work, nothing else is necessary.
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Last edited by ZombieTactics; 12-18-2012 at 6:10 PM..
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  #51  
Old 12-18-2012, 6:23 PM
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So, my full CAT package will take a little longer to get to me due to my Post Office box versus UPS delivery (part of my personal counter ambush if you will to not have physical addresses as much as possible).

I did review Rob's introductory video on his CAT material as far as how it's about concepts, perceptions and awareness plus geared towards teaching you the how and why for CAT. Good explanation and best to watch before purchasing.



Quote:
The CAT Program is not a replacement for in-person or live fire training, it is a supplement that is meant to educate people interested in personal defense in the most efficient ways to approach the problem.
He does drop a bunch of names: Col. Grossman, Tom Givens and Ken Murray.

The skeptic in me is having a hard time justifying the $268.61 I paid on Nov. 27th but I'll judge it after completing the course.
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Old 12-19-2012, 10:26 AM
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Still looking forward to your complete review, Ramin. It will form a big part of my yes/no purchase decision.
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Old 12-30-2012, 11:21 PM
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Paul Hotaling, are you always so obnoxious? What are YOUR qualifications, to be so judgmental about instructors? What military experience or law enforcement experience do you have? From what I can find, you don't have any. You are just a middle man for actual instructors who do have such experience. So please don't attempt to evaluate the abilities of instructors.

I'm sorry, I just couldn't read any more of Paul's rants without dropping the hammer on him.
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Old 12-31-2012, 12:53 AM
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Amazing just amazing .....Paul.....LOL
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Old 12-31-2012, 6:29 AM
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Paul ,

Keep going . Your on a roll.

It's always good to get bag of popcorn and watch Paul go .

LOL
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Old 12-31-2012, 8:52 AM
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Paul is a good guy, just passionate about his cadre of instructors. You can't fault a person for that. While I don''t ascribe to the "military experience = awesome civilian instructor" credo, (or the notion that only tier one military types are well qualified to teach) you cannot deny that Alias represents excellent instructors.
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Old 02-13-2013, 3:39 AM
Rob Pincus Rob Pincus is offline
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So, Ramzar, did you get through the CA Material? Love to see your thoughts....
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Old 02-13-2013, 8:18 AM
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ramzar ramzar is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Pincus View Post
So, Ramzar, did you get through the CA Material? Love to see your thoughts....
Sorry dude but I have not. Got the full CA kit over the holidays and then forgot. Thanks for the reminder. I'll get to it this month and will post a review here.
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Old 02-13-2013, 10:12 AM
Rob Pincus Rob Pincus is offline
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Awesome... looking forward to it.
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