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Centerfire Rifles - Semiautomatic or Gas Operated Centerfire rifles, carbines and other gas operated rifles.

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  #1  
Old 12-09-2012, 8:08 AM
Remus Remus is offline
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Default Same gun different stringing

Was at a gun range (out of California) and this other shooter had a "custom"-built FAL chambered in 308. He had a nice muzzle brake, a built in adjustable monopod support in the butt-stock, and something on the underside of the forward rail, and a 16X scope. He was using a non-padded shooting rest (what was at the range). Ammo was PMC, he had already fired through his Winchester ammo IIRC.

Ok, on with the story. We were shooting at 100 yards, and after observing me out shooting him with my irons he asked if I could shoot his gun for a second opinion. I fired two ten round groups of the PMC ammo and noted that both times I had a spread of about 2-3 inches wide and 8 inches high. Maybe four rounds out of the ten were in a 1.5" group (I believe the first 4 of 6) the dispersion got real bad with the remainder. What struck me is that when he went to shoot the PMC next his group was horizontally strung about 8 inches and about only 4 inches vertically. The Winchester ammo looked equally as bad - the owner reported that he had tried many other brands and none would group.

The "gunsmith" that he had build the gun (2-3k btw) claimed it shot 1 MOA for him. The owner had already sent it back to the smith to be looked at, but the smith claimed not the gun's fault.

So anyone with an opinion as to what is going on?

And just to answer a few questions that I may receive:
-I had him remove the whatever the heck it was from the front rail prior to me shooting.
-I attempted to shoot it with and without the rear monopod
-I waited a minimum of ten seconds prior to firing the subsequent round
-Yes it was pretty sweet gun, but a bit heavy with that optic on it.
-My first experience with a modern military spinoff rifle
-The gunsmith wont be named, as I am not the owner and cannot state 100% it was the fault of the assembler.
-I observed the owner shoot a second rifle and can say we have not eliminated his human element from the equation.
-I shoot an unbraked, unpadded 30-06 with a 7x scope and have groups of 1.5 inches.
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  #2  
Old 12-09-2012, 8:59 AM
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-hanko -hanko is online now
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Default Vertical stringing FAL...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Remus View Post
...The Winchester ammo looked equally as bad - the owner reported that he had tried many other brands and none would group.

The "gunsmith" that he had build the gun (2-3k btw) claimed it shot 1 MOA for him. The owner had already sent it back to the smith to be looked at, but the smith claimed not the gun's fault.

So anyone with an opinion as to what is going on?

And just to answer a few questions that I may receive:

-The gunsmith wont be named, as I am not the owner and cannot state 100% it was the fault of the assembler.
-I observed the owner shoot a second rifle and can say we have not eliminated his human element from the equation.
This is an easy one, it's happened before...

Issue is poor fit between the bolt carrier and upper receiver, and/or between the bolt carrier and bolt. Fix is to replace what's not fitting, whether it be the carrier or the bolt. A locking shoulder around 0.002" smaller may also have a positive effect, but the carrier and bolt should be checked first. Obviously, rechecking the headspace is needed when these parts are replaced.

I'd get the weapon back to the "gunsmith" for a fix...NO WAY did the "gunsmith" get moa results in his testing...issue is one directly related to building the rifle...not the shooter, ammo, or magazine.

The user issue is always a possible contribution, that's why is was good of you to shoot the gun for a 2nd data point.

PLEASE name the smith...doing so may save others here a couple' grand or two.

hth

-hanko
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Old 12-09-2012, 9:35 AM
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Default

Was the scope he was using the same one that the smith used?

Could it be glass issues?

Did it have BUIS that could have been used to verify the stringing.

I don't know anything about Fals so just speaking to general possible issues.
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Old 12-09-2012, 4:24 PM
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Test has a flawed premise to begin with: MOA Fal. Combine this with plinking or NATO spec ammo (Winchester white box I am guessing?) and the idea of shooting MOA becomes even LESS likely especially given the platform.
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Old 12-09-2012, 4:51 PM
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Anyone trying to diagnose this matter without a hands-on inspection and firing is just flappIn' his gums.
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Old 12-09-2012, 4:56 PM
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Loose scope?
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Old 12-09-2012, 7:28 PM
robert101 robert101 is offline
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I'd start with the suspect scope and mouting. Shooting off of a hard surface is not a good thing either. A bipod, prone, with solid mounted scope would be my suggestion for a starting point. If any rifle in a good solid configuration with 5 shots will not consistantly group within 2 to say 2.5" in 100 yards, I'd get it fixed or run over it with a 1 ton truck. I prefer my rifles bolt or auto to be 1.5 MOA max.
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Old 12-09-2012, 8:37 PM
Remus Remus is offline
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Thanks for the feedback guys, I brought up the scope with him first thing too; his smith used a different scope, he assured me that his scope was on tight. Ammo was one of Winchester's hunting bullets, I believe silvertip. I agree the PMC is garbage, one of the first rounds I fired the ejector ripped the rim off of the case - Ive never had anything of the sort happen to me.

The smith is a Calguns sponsor, as I said before I'm not going to name names because its not my gun, I can only attest that it shot like a gun worth 10% of its cost for the both of us, and for whatever reason I strung my groups vertically and he strung his horizontally. All this and he bucked up some additional money for some special barrel for it. If I get an update from him that his smith stiffed him... I'll update accordingly.

I'm thinking something loose, that exacerbated errors in our firing tendencies. Insofar as it all being lipservice... Partially true, but if you ever felt like you botched something and/or just didn't get a job done sometimes you want to try and figure out what went wrong.. That peace of mind stuff.
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Old 12-09-2012, 8:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by killshot44 View Post
Anyone trying to diagnose this matter without a hands-on inspection and firing is just flappIn' his gums.
Oh come on, it's the Internet.
Any diagnosis by someone who has never seen/touched the gun has to be accurate if the poster has enough posts...
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