Rob Pincus Counter Ambush Training DVD & Home Study Course

[ramzar]

I got an emailed newsletter from the Rob Pincus I.C.E. Training outfit regarding a new program of his for "Counter Ambush" Training:

Announcement: New Counter Ambush Training book & home study course

Order: Counter Ambush by Rob Pincus

Counter Ambush: 5-Disc DVD Box Set: $147.

Counter Ambush: Certified Training Course: $247.

Has anyone tried these?

[ZombieTactics]

Not sure what to think of it yet. I appreciate Pincus' skill as a presenter and find myself in agreement with much of his training philosophy. I somewhat flinch (a pun if you think about it) at anything associated with USCCA or Tim Schmidt, though.

[ramzar]

I just ordered the full Counter Ambush: Certified Training Course. Hopefully, there are some nuggets of good packaged knowledge therein.

[GM_77]

You take his course yet?

[ramzar]

Originally Posted by GM_77

You take his course yet?

If you're asking me, not yet. I have a very open mind so I'll be taking the Advanced Pistol Handling course in L.A. on August 8-9, 2013 taught by Rob Pincus himself.

[Clee]

Originally Posted by ramzar

If you're asking me, not yet. I have a very open mind so I'll be taking the Advanced Pistol Handling course in L.A. on August 8-9, 2013 taught by Rob Pincus himself.

$600!!! Yikes.

2 day courses from:
Vickers/Pannone/Hackathorn/McPhee/McNamara $525
Defoor/Harrington/Howe $450
Proctor $475

Seems a bit overpriced compared to other instructors with more real world experience.

Ram you're way more open minded than I'll ever be!

[GM_77]

Originally Posted by ramzar

If you're asking me, not yet. I have a very open mind so I'll be taking the Advanced Pistol Handling course in L.A. on August 8-9, 2013 taught by Rob Pincus himself.

Cool, hope you make some new friends ha-ha. Did you take a Tactical Response yet?

[ramzar]

Originally Posted by GM_77

Cool, hope you make some new friends ha-ha. Did you take a Tactical Response yet?

TR and James Yeager are a definite no due to the photographer downrange issue and Yeager's highly elevated obnoxiousness.

I did take classes with ADE when I didn't know any better back in 2007 and they were not reckless back then.

I even took classes with Suarez Int'l - once.

I try almost anything once

[Rob Pincus]

Hey guys... Thanks for the interest in the new book/DVD/Home Study Course.

It is a new program that I developed in conjunction with USCCA to give people a better understanding of HOW to train and why I think that a "counter ambush" approach is the best way for those interested in Personal Defense to approach the problem (as opposed to training in a way that presumes being "on balance" and "ready").
This is the first time that I am offering any type of distance learning course formally. I think this topic is important enough to justify it. I understand why people aren't as likely to take the time/effort/energy to attend a multi-day lecture series on the topic, but I think it is possible to take the lecture DVDs, the book and the home-study workbook and learn enough about the topic to pass the test we have prepared as a demonstration of successful completion. We'll see once people start taking the actual test, but I am expecting great feedback and results!

As for the pricing, you might be comparing Apples & Oranges. My fundamental 2 day course is $500... the APH is an advanced course and we cover quite a lot more material in that time period. The 2 day Combat Focus Shooting is a pre-requisite, and there are still some places we offer it for less from time to time because of existing relationships with the hosts that keep costs down.

-Rob

[ramzar]

Originally Posted by Rob Pincus

APH is an advanced course and we cover quite a lot more material in that time period. The 2 day Combat Focus Shooting is a pre-requisite.

Any chance of attending APH without the prerequisite CFS course?

For APH Course Eligibility it says:

Must have completed a minimum of a one-day Fundamentals of Combat Focus Shooting course to be eligible.

[Clee]

Originally Posted by Rob Pincus

As for the pricing, you might be comparing Apples & Oranges. My fundamental 2 day course is $500... the APH is an advanced course and we cover quite a lot more material in that time period. The 2 day Combat Focus Shooting is a pre-requisite, and there are still some places we offer it for less from time to time because of existing relationships with the hosts that keep costs down.

-Rob

Actually the instructor prices I quoted are also advanced course pricing with the exception being Vickers CQB courses which are significantly higher or McPhee Aerial shooting courses which obviously demand a higher cost.

[ramzar]

Originally Posted by Clee

Actually the instructor prices I quoted are also advanced course pricing with the exception being Vickers CQB courses which are significantly higher or McPhee Aerial shooting courses which obviously demand a higher cost.

This is true. Both the Ken Hackathorn Advanced Handgun in October 2012 (AAR) and the Kyle Defoor Advanced Handgun in September 2012 (AAR) that I completed cost only $450 for 2 days.

[GM_77]

Originally Posted by ramzar

TR and James Yeager are a definite no due to the photographer downrange issue and Yeager's highly elevated obnoxiousness.

I did take classes with ADE when I didn't know any better back in 2007 and they were not reckless back then.

I even took classes with Suarez Int'l - once.

I try almost anything once

Have you taken SouthNarc ECQC course? If so I'd be intrested to see what you think of that compared to the Counter Ambush Course.

[Jack's Smirking Revenge]

Originally Posted by Clee

$600!!! Yikes.

2 day courses from:
Vickers/Pannone/Hackathorn/McPhee/McNamara $525
Defoor/Harrington/Howe $450
Proctor $475

Seems a bit overpriced compared to other instructors with more real world experience.

Ram you're way more open minded than I'll ever be!

Wow that is amazingly overpriced and I totally agree with your line of thinking. I paid $450 for a stellar advanced handgun class with Kyle Defoor and $525 for an upcoming handgun TAPS course with Pat McNamara.

I have not trained with Chris Costa and don't plan on it, but he is probably the biggest celebrity instructor on the internet and he only charges $665 for three days of training.

I could be wrong though, none of the people I mentioned are certified CFS instructors which could explain the price difference.

[Clee]

$600 got Ram and others here 3 days with Frank Proctor that included a night shoot and all day instruction.

$600 will get you 3 days with Jim Smith of Spartan Tactical. You know the Delta sniper who was in the first Blackhawk that went down in Somalia and after dusting his ragged destroyed body from the wreckage he climbs out of the bird and engages Somalis while getting shot a few times in the process, keeping them away until he and his crew could be rescued. Now that guy you teach you something about mindset and fighting.

From what I've read Kyle Lamb 3 day is somewhere in that price range if not a bit more.

List goes on and on...

[hayaku]

Originally Posted by Clee

$600 got Ram and others here 3 days with Frank Proctor that included a night shoot and all day instruction.

$600 will get you 3 days with Jim Smith of Spartan Tactical. You know the Delta sniper who was in the first Blackhawk that went down in Somalia and after dusting his ragged destroyed body from the wreckage he climbs out of the bird and engages Somalis, keeping them away until he and his crew could be rescued. Now that guy you teach you something about mindset and fighting.

From what I've read Kyle Lamb 3 day is somewhere in that price range if not a bit more.

List goes on and on...

the frank proctor class was 30 hours worth of instruction... 3 days and 2 night shoots... huge bargain for the knowledge and training he was providing

[Clee]

Originally Posted by hayaku

the frank proctor class was 30 hours worth of instruction... 3 days and 2 night shoots... huge bargain for the knowledge and training he was providing

I imagine at $900 it still would have been a deal.

[readysetgo]

Originally Posted by Clee

I imagine at $900 it still would have been a deal.

Off topic much?

[GM_77]

It says $600.00 but the hours are not written so not fair to say its too expensive I think. Could be 6 hour days or 10 hour days. I have an excel sheet of rates for each training school and generally they remain in the $18/hr~$30/hr range.

Good luck to those attending it in the beginning of August at Angeles shooting range! If you guys end up on D-range you are probably F'd w/o cover.

[Rincus]

Counter Ambush: Certified Training Course: $247
Does this include a (fill your name in here) certification?
Or a franchise opportunity ?

[ramzar]

Originally Posted by GM_77

Have you taken SouthNarc ECQC course? If so I'd be intrested to see what you think of that compared to the Counter Ambush Course.

I've taken courses similar to SouthNarc ECQC from Krav Maga and TFTT. I got my arse kicked too. Definitely gets you into a fight for survival mode. Staying in the fight. Never quitting. They included knife and gun attacks and takeaways. Eye opening. Some students do get carried away.

I'll let you know about the Pincus Counter Ambush course. My expectations are mild. Just hope it's kind of worth the money.

[ramzar]

I wonder how much the Rob Pincus Counter Ambush program addresses such situations as depicted in the article below:

Attack the ambush: Remembering the Lakewood Four -- According to FBI LEOKA data, 45 police officers were killed in ambush situations in just three years (2009 to 2011)

[Rincus]

End of Watch

[ZombieTactics]

Originally Posted by ramzar

I wonder how much the Rob Pincus Counter Ambush program addresses such situations as depicted in the article below:

Attack the ambush: Remembering the Lakewood Four -- According to FBI LEOKA data, 45 police officers were killed in ambush situations in just three years (2009 to 2011)

Specifically? Probably not much.
In principle? Quite a bit.

That whole situation is so sad for all involved. Unit policy was to always have at least one officer "standing guard" in situations like that. Sadly, the policy wasn't followed.

[ramzar]

Originally Posted by ZombieTactics

Specifically? Probably not much.
In principle? Quite a bit.

That whole situation is so sad for all involved. Unit policy was to always have at least one officer "standing guard" in situations like that. Sadly, the policy wasn't followed.

Not just that particular case. The author talks about situations and in the comment section other coppers chime in with other thoughts. Good bit of exchange.

• Ambush can happen anywhere, anytime, to anyone, so don’t let “routine” degrade your awareness (without getting paranoid or living in a perpetual state of condition orange)
• Understand the difference between the types of ambush — unprovoked (impromptu) attack and deliberate (preplanned entrapment)
• In an ambush attack — particularly one that is pre-planned and deliberate — the likelihood that you’ll be coming up against an assailant armed with a center-fire rifle increases dramatically
• In a preplanned entrapment ambush, the assailant may have cached weapons and/or ammo in different places, and may (like in the case of Jeremiah Engleton in Pleasanton, Texas in 1999) dial 911 to lure officers into a kill zone
• Even an impromptu ambush can be somewhat pre-planned (remember, that the bad guys do their own form of when-then thinking, and as shooters, they sometimes train harder and more frequently than the good guys)
• There is an increase in the number of cluster-casualty ambush attacks — some ambush attacks seek to exploit the staggered arrival of solo officers, while others may seek out a group of officers assembled in one place
o The foiled plot of the Hutaree (a.k.a. “the Michigan Militia) was to first ambush and murder a single officer, and then use bombs and rifles to ambush officers attending the fallen LEO’s funeral
o In Washington, Maurice Clemmons actually performed both types of cluster-casualty ambush, killing those four cops gathered at Forza Coffee in Lakewood, and then trying to lure one-at-a-time victims to the abandoned “bait” vehicle in Seattle (thanks to Officer, Ben Kelly, Clemmons did not survive the day)
• While an ambush is relatively easy to set up (even a pair of 12-year-old boys can do it), in many circumstances the attacker(s) will be ill-prepared to repel an aggressive, well-executed counterambush

I guess I'll find out for myself when the full Counter Ambush package arrives within the next couple of weeks (they screwed up the fulfillment ("system error") so the DVDs come first and then the rest of the package).

[jessegpresley]

2 days with Bob Vogel is $450 but 2 days with Pincus is $500?

[Rincus]

Originally Posted by jessegpresley

2 days with Bob Vogel is $450 but 2 days with Pincus is $500?

but you don't understand the science.

[Rob Pincus]

Originally Posted by Clee

Actually the instructor prices I quoted are also advanced course pricing with the exception being Vickers CQB courses which are significantly higher or McPhee Aerial shooting courses which obviously demand a higher cost.

Surprised they are so low, honestly. What does Defoor/Vickers/Howe charge for their first level 2 day pistol courses?
Also, what are the class sizes? I limit mine to 12 students. I've seen some of the newer guys in the industry run classes with over 20 students at a time...

Any chance of attending APH without the prerequisite CFS course?

No. It's a safety/technique issue. I don't want to take the time to have to teach ready position and presentation from the holster or have to worry about re-explaining certain course protocols and procedures. It takes away from the experience for those who are following on from CFS... and just eats time from an already full schedule. There would also be a lot of conceptual questions likely to come up that are addressed in CFS. I used to experiment with letting guys with long training resumes in, but it never works. CFS is a distinct methodology.

Have you taken SouthNarc ECQC course? If so I'd be intrested to see what you think of that compared to the Counter Ambush Course.

That's like saying "Have you taken a physics class from Stephen Hawking? I'll be interested in hearing what you think of the guitar lesson from Eddie Van Halen."
Craig's ECQC course compares with my ECQT Course... but the CAT Home Study course is conceptual. Honestly, it explains the need for either Craig's or my in-person Close Quarters classes....

-RJP

[GM_77]

Originally Posted by Rob Pincus

That's like saying "Have you taken a physics class from Stephen Hawking? I'll be interested in hearing what you think of the guitar lesson from Eddie Van Halen."
Craig's ECQC course compares with my ECQT Course... but the CAT Home Study course is conceptual. Honestly, it explains the need for either Craig's or my in-person Close Quarters classes....

-RJP

Because Craig's course and teaching ability is phenomenal I'm going to go with Walter Lewin over Stephen Hawking, but I get the analogy. I forgot that Shivworks MUC & ECQC are separate courses but when I took it, it was done on consecutive days and there was some MUC in the last ECQC evolution. I guess what I really meant was MUC instead of ECQC.

[Rob Pincus]

Still very different courses... still the same relationship between CAT and ECQC. I don't teach a MUC type course. There are some aspects of MUC that address concerns I talk about int he CAT Book/DVD Lectures in regard to the traditional way that "awareness" and "focus" are addressed in training. Craig's version of moving & turning offline when approached, for example.

For those of you not familiar with this work from Craig, he covered a lot of it in a DVD we did together last year as part of the Personal Defense Network series.

CAT is about WHY you should train for being 'off balance' and HOW to go about doing that in a conceptual way. There really hasn't been anything like it offered before. It isn't like any physical course. It helps people learn about actual fights, how information gets processed, how learning is best done for the skills we need to develop and then some ideas on how to determine what gear and skills to collect. The home study course includes my new book, the CAT Lecture DVDs and workbook that helps you learn and apply the lessons and the some other material. After you've completed the work, you can take an online test (90% required for certificate of completion).
-RJP

[GM_77]

Ah ok, I understand now. Thanks for the responses.

[Rob Pincus]

No problem... I understand why some people are seeing the title and making some wrong guesses about what the content is. Trying to set the record straight!

[ramzar]

Even though the material within the Pincus Counter Ambush Training (CAT) may only explain the need for such training, I'm looking forward to perusing, watching and digesting the conceptual material (apparently it should arrive within the week in partial shipments due to a fulfillment error). I keep a healthy open-minded, analytical albeit skeptical approach to such material as I do to most such "distinct methodology".

[Rob Pincus]

Glad to hear it ramzar.... I'm looking forward to your thoughts. The skeptical student is usually the best.

[ramzar]

Originally Posted by Rob Pincus

Glad to hear it ramzar.... I'm looking forward to your thoughts. The skeptical student is usually the best.

No worries. You'll get an objective and agenda-less evaluation with all the good, the bad and the ugly therein.

We should all remain a student throughout our lives.

[ramzar]

Originally Posted by Rob Pincus

APH is an advanced course and we cover quite a lot more material in that time period. The 2 day Combat Focus Shooting is a pre-requisite.

Originally Posted by ramzar

Any chance of attending APH without the prerequisite CFS course?

For APH Course Eligibility it says:

Originally Posted by Rob Pincus

No. It's a safety/technique issue. I don't want to take the time to have to teach ready position and presentation from the holster or have to worry about re-explaining certain course protocols and procedures. It takes away from the experience for those who are following on from CFS... and just eats time from an already full schedule. There would also be a lot of conceptual questions likely to come up that are addressed in CFS. I used to experiment with letting guys with long training resumes in, but it never works. CFS is a distinct methodology.

The APH class registration page says a 1-day CFS course as a prerequisite but you said 2 days (see above links). So, which is it?

When you say:

Originally Posted by Rob Pincus

CFS is a distinct methodology.

AND

Originally Posted by Rob Pincus

There would also be a lot of conceptual questions likely to come up that are addressed in CFS.

It all sounds so elitist, like being a member of L. Ron Hubbard's inner circle and we're not worthy until we're indoctrinated.

Are the CFS methods so exclusive as to need an initiation?

Please help me understand in the overall tactical/defensive firearms training field...

[ramzar]

Originally Posted by Rob Pincus

Surprised they are so low, honestly. What does Defoor/Vickers/Howe charge for their first level 2 day pistol courses?
Also, what are the class sizes? I limit mine to 12 students. I've seen some of the newer guys in the industry run classes with over 20 students at a time...

They charge mostly around $200 to $250 per day for either level classes.

Limiting classes has become an issue mostly in highly student-populated areas especially like Southern California. There are no absolutes. The same 2-day Kyle Defoor Advanced Handgun class in SoCal with 20+ students had only 12 in Florida within a few weeks of each other both costing $450.

Some who proclaim on limiting the number of students are in effect only capable of limited number of students period.

The trend is in more top tier instructors limiting their student count to 15 or less. This is a good thing. Hope this will continue in large urban areas.

[Rob Pincus]

First back to the original topic, I posted a pretty thorough explanation of the CAT Home Study course and the package contents here: .

Next:

The APH class registration page says a 1-day CFS course as a prerequisite but you said 2 days (see above links). So, which is it?

Yes, a 1 day course qualifies... though I rarely teach a 1 day CFS course anymore.... But, you can take the course from any certified instructor.

Originally Posted by Rob Pincus

CFS is a distinct methodology.
AND

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Pincus

There would also be a lot of conceptual questions likely to come up that are addressed in CFS.
It all sounds so elitist, like being a member of L. Ron Hubbard's inner circle and we're not worthy until we're indoctrinated.

Are the CFS methods so exclusive as to need an initiation?

Please help me understand in the overall tactical/defensive firearms training field...

You are being a little melodramatic. Don't over think it.
If I say to a room full of people "Remember when you did the Wind Sprint Drill?" and one guy has never actually done a Wind Sprint Drill, then it takes away from the class time and I have re-teach something.
If you show up and use an extended ready position instead of a compressed one, you can't do some of the exercises safely. So, students who go through CFS and use/learn a compressed ready position are prepped for the APH course material. If you show up using an extended one and ask (fairly) "Why should I use a compressed ready?" then I have to teach/explain that, which is redundant for people who have been through CFS.... again, it takes time from the course material. No point in showing up for algebra class if you haven't learned arithmetic.

[ramzar]

Originally Posted by Rob Pincus

I posted a pretty thorough explanation of the CAT Home Study course and the package contents here: .

I'll review the piece you posted later. I'm still waiting for my full CAT program to arrive. I received the DVDs but not the rest of the materials. No big deal since I won't have time until the holidays anyways.

Originally Posted by Rob Pincus

You are being a little melodramatic. Don't over think it.
If I say to a room full of people "Remember when you did the Wind Sprint Drill?" and one guy has never actually done a Wind Sprint Drill, then it takes away from the class time and I have re-teach something.
If you show up and use an extended ready position instead of a compressed one, you can't do some of the exercises safely. So, students who go through CFS and use/learn a compressed ready position are prepped for the APH course material. If you show up using an extended one and ask (fairly) "Why should I use a compressed ready?" then I have to teach/explain that, which is redundant for people who have been through CFS.... again, it takes time from the course material. No point in showing up for algebra class if you haven't learned arithmetic.

Rob,

This stuff is NOT rocket science and your verbiage dwells on the over-dramatic and treating your audience as simpletons.

We KNOW compressed ready and a lot of your CFS stuff are quite familiar to many through the various CFS, ICE Training, PDN, etc. sources. Don't over-emphasize the uniqueness of your program since you start approaching the point of irrelevance.

Remember also that some of your CFS "graduates" may have forgotten the uniqueness of your methods and may need a quick refresher at the start of the APH class.

[va_dinger]

Originally Posted by Rob Pincus

Surprised they are so low, honestly. What does Defoor/Vickers/Howe charge for their first level 2 day pistol courses?

Why exactly would that matter?

All three of them are Tier 1 Special Operations veterans which means they have been vetted and received the finest training money can buy, proven world-class shooters, who have in fact been in combat.

You were a LEO for a very short time, admin at the Valhalla Training Center, and then started your own company (Hiring a Ranger & SEAL to stand next to you for your original company instructor photos), then turned yourself into a Youtube star w/ videos you do yourself.

Last I heard you don't even carry a gun in your classes and demo nothing. Back in the day you did demo's into the berm.

Should you're name be mentioned in the same breath as a Vickers, Lamb, Defoor, McPhee, Howe, Pannone, McNamara, Harrington, etc?

Originally Posted by Rob Pincus

Also, what are the class sizes? I limit mine to 12 students. I've seen some of the newer guys in the industry run classes with over 20 students at a time...

I've seen plenty of class photos from you with more than 12 students.

Nice try salesman.....You are slick, I will give you that.

IMO: Most of the time when an instructor states such a low student to instructor ratio as a sales pitch it's ONLY because that's all they could get to sign-up..

When they do it goes out the windown.

Try again.