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  #1  
Old 11-09-2012, 5:33 PM
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Default Can I Ship a Non-Rostered Handgun to a Receiving FFL

I apologize if this is a repeat thread. I did a search regarding my situation but can't find a real solid answer.

I'm from SoCal selling an off list handgun and a person up in NoCal wants to buy it. Can I ship to his FFL? I know Non-rostered handguns can be sold via PPT but I won't be present when he goes to DROS the gun when his FFL receives it.

or

Do I have to go to a local FFL in my town and have them ship to his FFL and the receiving FFL does the SSE on it?
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  #2  
Old 11-09-2012, 5:45 PM
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If it is being shipped to the buyer's FFL then it either needs to be on the Roster or exempt from the Roster. It's not eligible for the PPT exemption if it is shipped.
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  #3  
Old 11-10-2012, 6:35 AM
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He's right. We got burned on our DOJ inspection for this. PPT is exempt from the roster but if it's received via shipping it's got to be on the roster.
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  #4  
Old 11-10-2012, 7:08 AM
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How about a handgun that is a curio or relic? They would be exempt as well?
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Old 11-10-2012, 7:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DEPUTYBILL View Post
How about a handgun that is a curio or relic? They would be exempt as well?
Yes.
C&R handguns are exempt from needing to be on the Roster of Handguns Certified for Sale. [PC 32000(b)(3) & 32110(g)]


Penal Code 32000
(a) Commencing January 1, 2001, any person in this state who manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state for sale, keeps for sale, offers or exposes for sale, gives, or lends any unsafe handgun shall be punished by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year.
(b) This section shall not apply to any of the following:
(3) Firearms listed as curios or relics, as defined in Section 478.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations.

Penal Code 32110
Article 4 (commencing with Section 31900) and Article 5 (commencing with Section 32000) shall not apply to any of the following:
(g) The sale, loan, or transfer of any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person listed as a curio or relic, as defined in Section 478.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations.
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  #6  
Old 11-11-2012, 6:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacticool View Post
I'm from SoCal selling an off list handgun and a person up in NoCal wants to buy it. Can I ship to his FFL? I know Non-rostered handguns can be sold via PPT but I won't be present when he goes to DROS the gun when his FFL receives it.
The answer to your question is not what you are looking for since while you can ship the firearm to the FFL, the buyer would not be able to transfer it if the firearm is not exempt or the person is exempt (for a handgun not on the certified list). The answer to your specific question is Yes, you can ship it to his FFL. What happens after that could be a problem though.

A PPT is ONLY when both parties go to the same FFL. Some FFLs might do a transfer as a PPT when the firearm is shipped such as having the person fill out the DROS worksheet (which is fine if the person actually shows up), but that is questionable, at best.

Quote:
or

Do I have to go to a local FFL in my town and have them ship to his FFL and the receiving FFL does the SSE on it?
If the buyer is going to do the SSE, then you can ship directly, as long as the FFL is ok with that since some have a policy (not law) that they don't receive firearms from anyone other than a FFL.

Another option is for you to personally deliver it to the FFL. You don't have to go there at the same time as you can fill out a DROS worksheet, then the buyer can come in and the DROS would be submitted.
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  #7  
Old 12-03-2012, 4:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacticool View Post
I apologize if this is a repeat thread. I did a search regarding my situation but can't find a real solid answer.

I'm from SoCal selling an off list handgun and a person up in NoCal wants to buy it. Can I ship to his FFL? I know Non-rostered handguns can be sold via PPT but I won't be present when he goes to DROS the gun when his FFL receives it.
Yes you can. But good luck finding an FFL that will do it that way. The PC merely states that the seller is to "deliver the firearm to the dealer". Unless I missed something, it does not state anywhere in the PC that delivery must be made in person.


12082. (a) A person shall complete any sale, loan, or transfer of a firearm through a person licensed pursuant to Section 12071 in accordance with this section in order to comply with subdivision (d) of Section 12072. The seller or transferor or the person loaning the firearm shall deliver the firearm to the dealer who shall retain possession of that firearm. The dealer shall then deliver the firearm to the purchaser or transferee or the person being loaned the firearm, if it is not prohibited, in accordance with subdivision (c) of Section 12072..............
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Old 12-03-2012, 6:48 PM
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I had a similar situation; off list but not an SSE.

I was told by a local ffl that the seller in southern California could consign the gun to his local ffl. His local ffl could then ship it to my ffl and I'd be able to complete the transfer here.

Is this correct?
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  #9  
Old 12-04-2012, 8:28 AM
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A PPT is where both people go to the same FFL. If the FFL ships the firearm to another FFL, it would not be a PPT. Yes, there are FFLs who do that, but that does not mean it is legal.

The DROS system for a PPT requires that the seller's information be entered and I think it is also required that the FFL swipe the ID/DL of the seller, which can not be done if the person is not present. If it does not read, then a copy is required.

Due to all of this, any FFL who does remote PPTs is risking their business for $10, which is not a good gamble in my opinion.
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  #10  
Old 12-04-2012, 8:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Colonel Monk View Post
He's right. We got burned on our DOJ inspection for this. PPT is exempt from the roster but if it's received via shipping it's got to be on the roster.
I would like to here more about that. If you mentioned it before please link it, otherwise, what was the process, attitude, and penalty if any?
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  #11  
Old 12-04-2012, 11:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
A PPT is where both people go to the same FFL. If the FFL ships the firearm to another FFL, it would not be a PPT. Yes, there are FFLs who do that, but that does not mean it is legal.

The DROS system for a PPT requires that the seller's information be entered and I think it is also required that the FFL swipe the ID/DL of the seller, which can not be done if the person is not present. If it does not read, then a copy is required.

Due to all of this, any FFL who does remote PPTs is risking their business for $10, which is not a good gamble in my opinion.
I'm not trying to start a war with anyone, but can you point to the PC that says both the buyer and seller must physically be present to do a PPT? I honestly don't see it anywhere. If it isn't there, it isn't illegal. The best I can tell is that people think it's illegal is because PPT's have traditionally been done FTF. The reason I'm asking you specifically is that your sig line leads me to believe that you'd be knowledgable in this area.
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  #12  
Old 12-04-2012, 11:39 AM
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Since it is easier, the old number CA PC sections are used here as the FAQ has not been updated with the new numbers, which says:

Quote:
(b) The Attorney General shall adopt regulations under this
section to do all of the following:
The DROS process requires the seller to sign the form, as part of the regulations, as well as the dealer swiping the seller's DL.

It does not have to be done FTF, as can be the case with a consignment where the seller and buyer come at different times, but how can the dealer see the person and check their ID if the person never shows up? How can the dealer return the firearm if the buyer is denied since it can not be shipped to the person?

See also:

http://oag.ca.gov/firearms/dlrfaqs#dros

Quote:
13. What are the signature requirements for the DROS worksheets / computer printouts?

The purchaser must sign the DROS printout. For private party transactions, the seller must also sign the printout. The salesperson is required to sign as a witness to the purchaser's signature and identification.

(PC section 12071(c)(1))
The dealer can not witness the seller's signature and ID unless the dealer sees the seller sign it, which means that both have to be at the same place and the same time (dealer & seller and dealer & buyer).

The issue is that the PC is spaghetti and you have to follow all of it, references to the section, what each section means, etc. So, it is not possible to look at just one section and think that you know what it means. Also, when the PC says that the DOJ can make regulations, those regulations, which are not listed, are actually part of the law.
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  #13  
Old 12-04-2012, 12:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kemasa View Post

Quote:
13. What are the signature requirements for the DROS worksheets / computer printouts?

The purchaser must sign the DROS printout. For private party transactions, the seller must also sign the printout. The salesperson is required to sign as a witness to the purchaser's signature and identification.
The dealer can not witness the seller's signature and ID unless the dealer sees the seller sign it, which means that both have to be at the same place and the same time (dealer & seller and dealer & buyer).
Doesn't look like the dealer is required to witness the seller's signature.
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Old 12-04-2012, 12:19 PM
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It says that the seller must also sign the printout, which means that the requirements would also apply.
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Old 12-04-2012, 12:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
It says that the seller must also sign the printout, which means that the requirements would also apply.
The printout could be mailed to the seller and returned to the dealer.

The PC you posted does not require the dealer witness the seller's signature.
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Old 12-04-2012, 12:58 PM
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Then the dealer is not witnessing the signature and the FFL is not going to send a document that they are required to have through the mail and hope that they get it back. A second copy would be possible, but then if the DOJ does an inspection, then what?

There are requirements with respect to the buyer and it FAQ mentions that for a PPT, that the seller also needs to sign it, so what makes you think that the requirements don't also apply? There is also the issue of where you can do business and mailing the form might be considered doing business elsewhere, but the bottom line is that the view of the DOJ is that both parties need to go to the FFL (not at the same time), so what is in it for the FFL to go against that view? $10 for the transfer? Remember, for a PPT that is all that can be charged (if the person picks up the firearm right after the waiting period ends).

Remember, the CA PC says that the DOJ can create regulations, which then is actually part of the law. This is the way that the CA DOJ views it.
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Old 12-04-2012, 4:05 PM
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Well, I'll agree 100% that's there's way too many hoops to jump through for an FFL to even consider doing PPT's in this fashion, but FAQ's are not law, and the PC absolutely does not allow the DOJ to create regulations that then become the law. Those are called underground regulations and CGF has delivered a few smackdowns in regards to them.
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Old 12-04-2012, 4:15 PM
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Read the law, it very clearly says that the DOJ has the ability to create regulations that become the law. That is exactly what the law says. Yes, there are other other underground regulations, but that is a different story.

What exactly do you think the follow sentence means?

Quote:
The Attorney General shall adopt regulations under this
section to do all of the following:
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Old 12-04-2012, 4:15 PM
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Read the law, it very clearly says that the DOJ has the ability to create regulations that become the law. That is exactly what the law says. Yes, there are other other underground regulations, but that is a different story.

What exactly do you think the follow sentence means?

Quote:
The Attorney General shall adopt regulations under this
section to do all of the following:
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