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  #1  
Old 11-28-2012, 6:52 PM
SilverTauron SilverTauron is offline
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Default Do More Women Support Gun Contol?

I've been reading some academic and literary material on gun control recently, and in my research an interesting theme keeps coming up. Namely, multiple surveys and academic studies have determined that women voters favor gun control at a significantly higher margin then male voters do.

My quiry to the ladies of calguns is this; Does your real-world experience correlate with the studies which suggest that women support gun control at perhaps a greater level then men do? If so, why ?
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  #2  
Old 11-29-2012, 5:25 AM
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I'm not a lady, but my wife believes in gun control. By that she says that only women should own guns since men are generally the ones that act irresponsibly with them. I think she has a point.
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Old 11-29-2012, 7:22 AM
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i like your wife, powaybob!

silver, i've been thinking about this....women are taught to be nurturing caregivers. the idea of being protective to include being able to handle a gun for self-defense and/or defense of one's loved ones got tossed out i think perhaps with the victorian city dwellers. womens' roles have been severely defined. to be a plainswoman with a shotgun in hand was considered unfeminine/gross/lower class. it was the role of the male to provide family protection. society has reinforced these "ideals" in many ways. it is a slow slog but women are waking up and taking control of their lives in more ways than reproduction and economics.

generalizations but perhaps they are relevant.
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Old 11-29-2012, 7:45 AM
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I am for greater control. I don't let my gun run around threatening people. I control it and I have a tight group.

That being said, I don't think women are any more or less responsible than men when it comes to gun handling. Fair amount of idiots on both sides. But since more men own guns than women, we hear more about crimes or idiots committed by men with guns. Sort of like saying that women get in to more car accidents than men without taking in to account whether men drive more miles than women. If I drive 20k miles a year and get in to one accident, but my friend only drives 5k miles a year and doesn't have any accidents, does that mean she is a better driver? Clear as mud? Sorry, not enough coffee yet this morning.

Last edited by Bugguts; 11-29-2012 at 10:16 AM.. Reason: typos
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Old 11-29-2012, 8:27 AM
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Originally Posted by movie zombie View Post
i like your wife, powaybob!

silver, i've been thinking about this....women are taught to be nurturing caregivers. the idea of being protective to include being able to handle a gun for self-defense and/or defense of one's loved ones got tossed out i think perhaps with the victorian city dwellers. womens' roles have been severely defined. to be a plainswoman with a shotgun in hand was considered unfeminine/gross/lower class. it was the role of the male to provide family protection. society has reinforced these "ideals" in many ways. it is a slow slog but women are waking up and taking control of their lives in more ways than reproduction and economics.

generalizations but perhaps they are relevant.
Interesting. So does being a female shooter still strike other women as being "uncouth" for lack of a better word?
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Old 11-29-2012, 8:40 AM
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female shooters are mavericks......for the most part. unless the local culture in which they live is a hunting culture. look at the south and the plains states: lots written about women shooters from those areas.

but this may be changing in california: http://norcalcazadora.blogspot.com/2...ful-sight.html

i grew up working class poor. my dad hunted not just for pleasure here in california. there were others that were with less economic resources in my father's acquaintence that had meat on the table only because of their hunting skills. my point about this is that i grew up around guns and was given my own rifle at age 8. my experience is not the female norm in california.

now, though, the foodie movement seems to be bringing women into the fold re hunting. whether those women will also see the need for self-defense is another question.
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"Her hands, her comfort, her confidence, her choice.", Mr K re buying a gun for a woman.

Gun Control:
"The theory that a woman found dead in an alley, raped and strangled with her own pantyhose, is somehow morally superior to a woman explaining to police how her attacker got that fatal bullet wound."-- as seen on a t-shirt
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Old 11-29-2012, 10:08 AM
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Powaybob's wife is my new best friend! Lucky Powaybob to have such a smart bride.

Movie Zombie is right, as she usually is, when she says women shooters tend to be mavericks. It never crossed my mind, when I bought my first gun, whether my friends would approve or not.

I think that there are several factors that motivate women to be shooters in the US.
  • If she has ever been attacked or raped or had someone close to her attacked
  • If she ever had her house broken into when she was there
  • If she comes from a shooting family or has a SO who is a shooter
  • If she's just into trying new things.
  • If she's really independent anyway and wants to be able to handle her own self defense if she goes to the movies alone at night

I think women who are into gun control are mainly urban mothers who want the guns locked up so their children are safe on the streets. And they truly believe that will do the job. It's a knee-jerk thing, not fully thought out. They're dreaming of a mid-century life when kids ran free all day and came home dirty, tired and smiling.

Women are funny. If you ask most women if they'd kill a Bad Guy to protect themselves from rape or abduction, they'll most likely say no, they'd fight but not kill. But if you ask them if they'd kill to protect their children, they'll say "Absolutely. Without hesitation!". Weird. It's like they deserve less protection than their kids? And they'd really rather their husbands do it for them.

But, that's the key question to getting a reluctant woman into guns. The Momma Bear reaction of being able to protect your kids no matter what, will get women's attention every time, I've found.

Some women are raised to be somewhat passive, even now. The older ones certainly. Less so with today's 20-somethings. The image of the confident aggressive woman facing down an attacker pleases me mightily. But not all women are pleased by that. They don't see themselves standing over a bleeding BG.

There may be a "it's not dainty" factor to shooting. It's not something you do in a dress and heels, generally. (Although I might try it, just to prove a point). It's been somewhat a tomboy sport, historically. But I think that's changing now, and for the better. It hasn't been seen as a girly thing to do and what will your boyfriend think if you out-shoot him? If he doesn't think "Wow, I just love this girl", you need to drop him like a hot rock. If beating your guy at a sport emasculates him, you need a new guy.

And then there's The Blind Side: "I'm in a prayer group with the DA, I'm a member of the NRA, and I'm always packing..." Well, alright then.
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Last edited by BonnieB; 11-29-2012 at 10:36 AM..
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Old 11-29-2012, 10:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BonnieB View Post
....... The image of the confident aggressive woman facing down an attacker pleases me mightily. But not all women are pleased by that.......

and i would add that not all men are pleased by that. many that claim to want more women into 2A rights and gunownership don't like the independence and self-empowerment that comes with that.

back to the OP and if women support gun control more than men: i think its pretty even across the board. i know adamant anti-2A rights men! some that were in the military!
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"Her hands, her comfort, her confidence, her choice.", Mr K re buying a gun for a woman.

Gun Control:
"The theory that a woman found dead in an alley, raped and strangled with her own pantyhose, is somehow morally superior to a woman explaining to police how her attacker got that fatal bullet wound."-- as seen on a t-shirt
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Old 11-29-2012, 10:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BonnieB View Post
I think that there are several factors that motivate women to be shooters.
  • If she has ever been attacked or raped or had someone close to her attacked
  • If she ever had her house broken into when she was there
  • If she comes from a shooting family or has a SO who is a shooter
  • If she's just into trying new things.
  • If she's really independent anyway and wants to be able to handle her own self defense

I think some women are raised to be somewhat passive, even now. The older ones certainly. Less so with today's 20-somethings. The image of the confident aggressive woman facing down an attacker pleases me mightily. But not all women are pleased by that.

Women are funny. If you ask most women if they'd kill a man to protect themselves from rape or abduction, they'll most likely say no. But if you ask them if they'd kill to protect their children, they'll say "You bet!". Weird. It's like they deserve less protection than their kids?

But, that's the key question to getting a reluctant woman into guns. The Momma Bear reaction of being able to protect your kids no matter what, will get women's attention every time, I've found.
It's interesting that you bring up self-defense compared to defense of our children because I have friends that think that exact same way. It is "justifiable" to shoot to protect their child but not themselves. I don't get that kind of logic because my life is no more or less important than my child's life and what would happen to my child if I submitted to rape/abduction/assault etc? I would use my gun in either instance. I would protect my child first aka Human Shield if I could, but if I am alone and someone attempts to assault me, they are going to be treated just as if they were attacking my child. I'm an equal opportunity defense person. LOL
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Old 11-29-2012, 11:22 AM
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Well I posted this last night onto my facebook, and more so in our private group, almost every member excluding our out of CONUS ones such as in Europe, Japan, SK, etc, responded nearly same manner/tone.

In general from a young age, most of us are brought up to nurture, love, do girly things. But after a certain age, most begin to get very very athletic, and everyone in our automotive group which is a sub cat of members of a larger club, we are a WOMEN only bunch. We stunt bikes, drift and road race/drag race, we run and gun/train. Almost all the members including world wide are current or former mil, and many are in some kind of form of LE.

Ok those mentionings aside, as a whole, pro gun, and active enthusiast who love to shoot? We are few and between, take for instance EVERYONE in this SUBFORUM, men posters excluded, look how many there are, now add a few more give or take in CA in general, not CONUS, just CA. Put that relatively small number against how many women in TOTAL are in CA...not many now huh? One can't add the casual shooter whos bf or husband takes them to shoot once or twice every 3-6 months or forced to tag along, I am talking about the adult grown woman who takes the initiative and enjoys shooting, buys her own ammo, cleaners her own gun, etc.

An argument broke off in my original thread on my FB, forgot its set that random ppl can see others on THEIR friendslist posting on my topics or post, and by default can comment too.

His remark was that he left for the Marines, and had a "normal" wife who cooked, cleaned, laundry, child raising. She worked 7am-3:30pm 5 days a week, was into knitting and pottery. She HATED all things fire arm related.

A few years later, and his permanent return, he came home to see she purchased a g19 and 17. A COLT AR, and a 870 shotgun. When asked what happened, he said 2 blocks over from their home, there was an attempted home invasion, and though there were fire arms in the home, that person didn't know how to use them, and her eldest son, 16, had picked up one and pumped it. She said she didnt want to be helpless like that, especially with 3 small children in her home.

Another person posted she didn't believe in owning a gun, that-that was over dramatized, and a gun doesn't solve anything, a good alarm system, and security door, and other steps taken to make the home more secure are enough. Calling the gentlemans wife paranoid, asking if they store palettes of food like crazy preppers.

In anycase, its not just women, its those who don't use/train with fire arms, who do not understand them. It isn't solely women ourselves alone, its everyone in whole.

Definitive Gun Control? Ok, fine, anyone who commits a violent crime with a fire arm, like armed robbery or assault, etc should be sentenced to death penalty. Rapist and etc should be as well, if any criminal whos not supposed to have a fire arm is caught in possession of one, such as revolving door specials that perform a crime get arrested and out shortly after? Should be given the DP.

Extreme? Yes, but would make folks of the criminal inclination far more afraid to be caught with one. I see no point in fancy suit wearing, bmw benz ferrari porsche aston maserati rover driving, desk jockeys who don't care for our common folks interest to be stupid choices for us to begin with. Like 10rd capacity magazines, or a retarded bullet button that slows down effective reload times/speed....

So ... gun control. I see more crime, and bs here in CA since moving back here recently, then I did in CO or TX or OK where having had NORMAL capacity magazines and operating fire arms were readily available.

We need better folks in positions to make cleaner/clearer laws.

Its all relative, like little rice rockets zooming around Southern California, with melted on coffee cans, chopped springs, poorly secured and hanging body parts...and are ok to be on the road, but since coming back here to CA, I can't have a clean 6.2L Supercharged E-ROD with emission eq installed, in a 2010 Infiniti G37 SEDAN, that was done by a friends shop in Texas? lol. Professionally done mind you...that get driven once a week lol. Or did...

Gun Control: Meh.

No more focus/encompassing of the masses, more focus and singular attention paid to the FEW aka, criminals in general. Give the good ol folks back more freedoms and control. And make it life ending for the criminal element...and things will surely if not slowly be better. They think by choke holding the masses, it'll solve all these "recent" freak incident shootings? Not likely.

Guns aren't toys, and those who practice with them, and train. Know this. They are tools to KILL. And defending ones self or others, by means of KILLING with such a tool, is a justified homicide performed by LE when need be. But by limiting law abiding citizens ability to effectively arm themselves, they are only giving power to criminals, not hindering it...

Women by default aren't as strong or large as men, even myself, as far as I have taken myself, and as strong and capable as I am, a fire arm is a force equalizer for me. Proper training never stops, always attending, always bettering. Learning. Ups ones survivability.

For general civilians in this state, what is commonly had? A handgun. Right? MAYBE, a shotgun. Ok, but whats better then a handgun? A RIFLE would one really want to be fiddling with a BB to release a magazine, to reload? No...so to not waste time with such, and because of their size, most just use handguns, do you really think criminals care for 10rd's? No, they aren't even supposed to have fire arms, what makes you think they care about restrictive capacity?

Eh, w/e. Sorry for the rant, but after an exchange with others about why CA is a "better" place with the restrictions is has, and should have more lol... kinda erked. Again, apologize for the rant.

IMHO, I think CA should lift the curtain that is draped over. Would make it a better place to be. Hard hitting race caresque builds and performing cars, I can really do without, I drive an SUV or a 4 door truck most of the time because of the kiddos lol. And our dogs...but when I moved back here? The stifling choke of restrictions pissed the hell out of me. Seeing friends with gimpy rifles lol...eh.

Anyways, I am not for more. And everyone else I know in THIS state, and in this nation? Are not as well.

Sorry for the rant

Quote:
Originally Posted by BonnieB View Post
Powaybob's wife is my new best friend! Lucky Powaybob to have such a smart bride.

Movie Zombie is right, as she usually is, when she says women shooters tend to be mavericks. It never crossed my mind, when I bought my first gun, whether my friends would approve or not.

I think that there are several factors that motivate women to be shooters in the US.
  • If she has ever been attacked or raped or had someone close to her attacked
  • If she ever had her house broken into when she was there
  • If she comes from a shooting family or has a SO who is a shooter
  • If she's just into trying new things.
  • If she's really independent anyway and wants to be able to handle her own self defense if she goes to the movies alone at night

I think women who are into gun control are mainly urban mothers who want the guns locked up so their children are safe on the streets. And they truly believe that will do the job. It's a knee-jerk thing, not fully thought out. They're dreaming of a mid-century life when kids ran free all day and came home dirty, tired and smiling.

Women are funny. If you ask most women if they'd kill a Bad Guy to protect themselves from rape or abduction, they'll most likely say no, they'd fight but not kill. But if you ask them if they'd kill to protect their children, they'll say "Absolutely. Without hesitation!". Weird. It's like they deserve less protection than their kids? And they'd really rather their husbands do it for them.

But, that's the key question to getting a reluctant woman into guns. The Momma Bear reaction of being able to protect your kids no matter what, will get women's attention every time, I've found.

Some women are raised to be somewhat passive, even now. The older ones certainly. Less so with today's 20-somethings. The image of the confident aggressive woman facing down an attacker pleases me mightily. But not all women are pleased by that. They don't see themselves standing over a bleeding BG.

There may be a "it's not dainty" factor to shooting. It's not something you do in a dress and heels, generally. (Although I might try it, just to prove a point). It's been somewhat a tomboy sport, historically. But I think that's changing now, and for the better. It hasn't been seen as a girly thing to do and what will your boyfriend think if you out-shoot him? If he doesn't think "Wow, I just love this girl", you need to drop him like a hot rock. If beating your guy at a sport emasculates him, you need a new guy.

And then there's The Blind Side: "I'm in a prayer group with the DA, I'm a member of the NRA, and I'm always packing..." Well, alright then.
Mama bear part made me laugh lol. My kids were watching BRAVE yesterday, reminded me of that. But its not just to defend my kids, what sucks is if an A.S. situation arose here in general CA? Not everyone can have a CCW, and ACT. So what can/do they do? There are a lot of what if situations, and sadly? One isn't capable of defending themselves day to day, maybe in their own home. But other wise you're left to depend on a cell phone and a 10-15 minute lead time, then what? What if you can't wait 10-15 minutes as you're scared to death say huddled with your kids watching RISE OF THE GUARDIANS? As you are all low to the ground behind seats? And in 2-3 minutes YOU will be DEAD, and so will your children?

That whole "Rather have and not need, then need and not have" kinda thing comes to mind, you know? Its why many friends and associates, and family members, have moved out of CA, which is sad, but understandable. When we lived in CO? I carried not just to protect myself, and then not just for my own kids, but for the situation that what if I am out by myself, and an A.S. sit occurs? Its a fire arm carriers responsibility to act. I've gotten so much flack crap from recreational shooters, about oh what if they get shot by responding L.E. or etc...or that they don't want to put themselves in harms way to protect others, say another person and her kids?

Really? heh. Then why carry.

Everyone I know who does? Train religiously. Constantly. Even professionals who teach classes themselves, take them from their peers to better themselves. Training Equipment and LUCK...it can save your life. Someone elses. And that is my point.

I have gun control lol. See? Its holstered. I have control of it. Allowing jack asses in fancy suits to tell me I cant have a fire arm, is NOT having gun control, lol.

On that note, we aren't staying in CA much longer, the Hubs is finishing up school; yet again, and then we are moving back to our actual home in CO. Wish this state was better off, then would love to stay here cause of the weather. Eh. Can't have it all I guess.

Last edited by onequickshift; 11-29-2012 at 11:36 AM..
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Old 11-29-2012, 11:34 AM
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But what about the children!?!?!

(Sorry I just couldn't resist...)

Good post!
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Old 11-29-2012, 11:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by movie zombie View Post
it was the role of the male to provide family protection. society has reinforced these "ideals" in many ways. it is a slow slog but women are waking up and taking control of their lives in more ways than reproduction and economics.
Great points!

Having the means to defend yourself is having control over yourself and your life, in other words equality.

Women were property until not long ago. And in many places, still are.

Having full control and independence is still a relatively new concept that many women and sub cultures here in the US unfortunately do not embrace.

Those women are (in my experiences) the ones that are not so interested in ensuring their safety by owning/using the best force equalizer out there... a firearm... and would rather rely on others.
Along the same lines, they would be anti-gunners because if they were not then they are ensuring more people have potential controlling power over them and that's a very scary thing. They don't feel empowered to take care of themselves.

Just my .02.
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Old 11-29-2012, 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by onequickshift View Post
When asked what happened, he said 2 blocks over from their home, there was an attempted home invasion, and though there were fire arms in the home, that person didn't know how to use them, and her eldest son, 16, had picked up one and pumped it. She said she didnt want to be helpless like that, especially with 3 small children in her home.

Another person posted she didn't believe in owning a gun, that-that was over dramatized, and a gun doesn't solve anything, a good alarm system, and security door, and other steps taken to make the home more secure are enough. Calling the gentlemans wife paranoid, asking if they store palettes of food like crazy preppers.

E.
These two things apply to me. I am not and was not anti-gun, but neither was I "normal" LOL. However, one night we had an issue and I KNEW there was a gun in the house but did not know WHERE or how to use it and the next morning when Bill got home I asked him to take me to the range, show me the basics(I took a course also) and show me where we kept the guns and the keys to the safe.

The other came from my sister when I said I had gotten my CCW permit. She said "Are you going to be like those people and start stockpiling food, toilet paper, guns and ammo like a doomsday prepper?" My own sister. She is not anti-gun, her husband owns many guns and is a hunter but other than a VERY rudimentary knowledge of how to handle them, she does not understand my desire for self-defense or defense of my family. I have given up trying to explain to her.
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Old 11-29-2012, 12:05 PM
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It's really hard to fight stereotypes and images.

The extremists always set the tone, whether it's Mormons, muslims, the NRA or British royalty.

Bug's sister was, no offense, rather mindlessly reciting a stereotype she had acquired, probably from the media. And just pasted it over Bug's face. (Bug's sister had probably never met a prepper personally.)

I was an active feminist in the 70's. Still am. And I must have told people 2,000 times that I never burned a bra. (Because I didn't own one. It was the '70's...) It was a media image, an actual photo, that caught the imagination of the american public

That said, I only know two ways to change stereotypes and images. One is a massive ongoing marketing campaign. The other is to be a spotless example of what you want the image to be. And then tell everyone you know what you're doing and why.

People really don't want to hear me say I feel unsafe going to the movies at night alone. Because it might make them feel unsafe and they don't want to deal with that. They just really don't want to confront it.
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Do only safe sex. Never have sex with someone crazier than you are.
Don't marry or move in together before you're both at least 25.
Don't have children until you're married five years or at least age 30.
Put 10% of your salary into savings every month no matter how broke you are.
Don't ever screw around with the IRS.
Keep a handgun on your bedside table.
Don't smart-mouth judges, or cops who stop you on the road.

Last edited by BonnieB; 11-29-2012 at 12:21 PM..
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Old 11-29-2012, 12:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BonnieB View Post
It's really hard to fight stereotypes and images.

The extremists always set the tone, whether it's Mormons, muslims, the NRA or British royalty.

Bug's sister was, no offense, rather mindlessly reciting a stereotype she had acquired, probably from the media. And just pasted it over Bug's face. (Bug's sister had probably never met a prepper personally.)

I was an active feminist in the 70's. Still am. And I must have told people 2,000 that I never burned a bra. (Because I didn't own one. It was the '70's...) It was a media image, an actual photo, that caught the imagination of the american public

That said, I only know two ways to change stereotypes and images. One is a massive ongoing marketing campaign. The other is to be a spotless example of what you want the image to be. And then tell everyone you know what you're doing and why.

People really don't want to hear me say I feel unsafe going to the movies at night alone. Because it might make them feel unsafe and they don't want to deal with that. They just really don't want to confront it.
LOL! No offense taken. I was actually kind of surprised that she took such a position since we were raised in the same house, around guns and hunters. Then again, she also called me racist the other day and I had to tell her "For all that we know of each other, you really don't know me at all!" We chat every day. After our parents passed away 22yrs ago, we became even closer than we were(we are 5yrs apart) but she truly does not know me. If that is even possible. Her daughter, my niece(17) has been involved with a black kid since she was 14(he was 18). He is abusive to her and at one point my sister had to get a restraining order against him so no, I do not like this person. It has nothing to do with his race and EVERYTHING to do with his character and the harm he has done and is doing to my niece. So yesterday I asked who a mutual friend of ours was dating and she said "You won't like him, he's part black" I have black friends. I am not racist but it is the easiest thing for her and my niece to point to instead of either of them acknowledging that my niece is being abused. My sister was with an abusive husband(my niece's dad no less) for 15yrs. You would think she would defend her daughter but my sister and I could not be more different so no offense taken at all. LOL
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  #16  
Old 11-29-2012, 12:35 PM
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BonnieB BonnieB is offline
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Well, Bugs, for goodness sakes, you couldn't dislike him because he's an abuser, could you? Has to be some other reason... Oh, right, he's another race. THAT's why you don't like him. (Major ironic LOL here, for those who missed it).

Your niece is in a serious position. Abuse does run in families and down generations. If you force the issue, you may lose your sister. It's a nasty set of choices.

Women who won't defend themselves from abusive men are actually delusional, they close their eyes and pretend it's not real. And they can do it for their daughters. Because they can't admit it for themselves.

My sister has pasted a stereotype over my face too and can't understand any of my choices. She chose the home-town, traditional working wife, hangs with her high school girlfriends at 55. I chose ANYTHING else but that. So she's pasted some 'free spirit' stereotype over my face and that's what she sees when she looks at me.

Sure, "free spirit" ! BA in Management, MBA, homeowner at 30, self supporting, married twice, retired at 62. Not exactly a hippie in a van...

But I do actually do my own original thinking, and I tend to make others around me do it too. Not comfortable for them, but it makes me smile...

We have drifted massively off-topic here, but I don't care....
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WHAT I HAVE LEARNED SO FAR, MOSTLY THE HARD WAY
Do only safe sex. Never have sex with someone crazier than you are.
Don't marry or move in together before you're both at least 25.
Don't have children until you're married five years or at least age 30.
Put 10% of your salary into savings every month no matter how broke you are.
Don't ever screw around with the IRS.
Keep a handgun on your bedside table.
Don't smart-mouth judges, or cops who stop you on the road.
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  #17  
Old 11-29-2012, 12:56 PM
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Bugguts Bugguts is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BonnieB View Post
Well, Bugs, for goodness sakes, you couldn't dislike him because he's an abuser, could you? Has to be some other reason... Oh, right, he's another race. THAT's why you don't like him. (Major ironic LOL here, for those who missed it).

Your niece is in a serious position. Abuse does run in families and down generations. If you force the issue, you may lose your sister. It's a nasty set of choices.

Women who won't defend themselves from abusive men are actually delusional, they close their eyes and pretend it's not real. And they can do it for their daughters. Because they can't admit it for themselves.

My sister has pasted a stereotype over my face too and can't understand any of my choices. She chose the home-town, traditional working wife, hangs with her high school girlfriends at 55. I chose ANYTHING else but that. So she's pasted some 'free spirit' stereotype over my face and that's what she sees when she looks at me.

Sure, "free spirit" ! BA in Management, MBA, homeowner at 30, self supporting, married twice, retired at 62. Not exactly a hippie in a van...

But I do actually do my own original thinking, and I tend to make others around me do it too. Not comfortable for them, but it makes me smile...

We have drifted massively off-topic here, but I don't care....
There you go being dangerous again. Thinking for yourself and dragging us right along for the ride!!! Tell me again why we are in this handbasket??
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