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Competition, Action Shooting And Training. Competition, Three gun, IPSC, IDPA , and Training discussion here. |
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Rob Pincus Counter Ambush Training DVD & Home Study Course
I got an emailed newsletter from the Rob Pincus I.C.E. Training outfit regarding a new program of his for "Counter Ambush" Training:
Counter Ambush: 5-Disc DVD Box Set: $147. Counter Ambush: Certified Training Course: $247. Has anyone tried these?
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Their drills are bloodless battles, and their battles bloody drills. - Historian Josephus (AD 37-101) on the Roman military |
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Not sure what to think of it yet. I appreciate Pincus' skill as a presenter and find myself in agreement with much of his training philosophy. I somewhat flinch (a pun if you think about it) at anything associated with USCCA or Tim Schmidt, though.
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| I don't pretend to be an "authority." I'm just a guy who trains a lot, shoots a lot and has a perspective. Check the ZombieTactics Channel on YouTube for all sorts of gun-related goodness CLICK HERE Last edited by ZombieTactics; 11-26-2012 at 2:41 PM.. |
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I just ordered the full Counter Ambush: Certified Training Course. Hopefully, there are some nuggets of good packaged knowledge therein.
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Their drills are bloodless battles, and their battles bloody drills. - Historian Josephus (AD 37-101) on the Roman military |
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If you're asking me, not yet. I have a very open mind so I'll be taking the Advanced Pistol Handling course in L.A. on August 8-9, 2013 taught by Rob Pincus himself.
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Their drills are bloodless battles, and their battles bloody drills. - Historian Josephus (AD 37-101) on the Roman military |
#6
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2 day courses from: Vickers/Pannone/Hackathorn/McPhee/McNamara $525 Defoor/Harrington/Howe $450 Proctor $475 Seems a bit overpriced compared to other instructors with more real world experience. Ram you're way more open minded than I'll ever be! |
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I did take classes with ADE when I didn't know any better back in 2007 and they were not reckless back then. I even took classes with Suarez Int'l - once. I try almost anything once
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Their drills are bloodless battles, and their battles bloody drills. - Historian Josephus (AD 37-101) on the Roman military Last edited by ramzar; 11-26-2012 at 8:06 PM.. |
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Hey guys... Thanks for the interest in the new book/DVD/Home Study Course.
It is a new program that I developed in conjunction with USCCA to give people a better understanding of HOW to train and why I think that a "counter ambush" approach is the best way for those interested in Personal Defense to approach the problem (as opposed to training in a way that presumes being "on balance" and "ready"). This is the first time that I am offering any type of distance learning course formally. I think this topic is important enough to justify it. I understand why people aren't as likely to take the time/effort/energy to attend a multi-day lecture series on the topic, but I think it is possible to take the lecture DVDs, the book and the home-study workbook and learn enough about the topic to pass the test we have prepared as a demonstration of successful completion. We'll see once people start taking the actual test, but I am expecting great feedback and results! As for the pricing, you might be comparing Apples & Oranges. My fundamental 2 day course is $500... the APH is an advanced course and we cover quite a lot more material in that time period. The 2 day Combat Focus Shooting is a pre-requisite, and there are still some places we offer it for less from time to time because of existing relationships with the hosts that keep costs down. -Rob Last edited by Rob Pincus; 11-26-2012 at 10:44 PM.. |
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For APH Course Eligibility it says: Quote:
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Their drills are bloodless battles, and their battles bloody drills. - Historian Josephus (AD 37-101) on the Roman military Last edited by ramzar; 11-26-2012 at 10:57 PM.. |
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Their drills are bloodless battles, and their battles bloody drills. - Historian Josephus (AD 37-101) on the Roman military Last edited by ramzar; 11-26-2012 at 11:12 PM.. |
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I have not trained with Chris Costa and don't plan on it, but he is probably the biggest celebrity instructor on the internet and he only charges $665 for three days of training. I could be wrong though, none of the people I mentioned are certified CFS instructors which could explain the price difference. |
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$600 got Ram and others here 3 days with Frank Proctor that included a night shoot and all day instruction.
$600 will get you 3 days with Jim Smith of Spartan Tactical. You know the Delta sniper who was in the first Blackhawk that went down in Somalia and after dusting his ragged destroyed body from the wreckage he climbs out of the bird and engages Somalis while getting shot a few times in the process, keeping them away until he and his crew could be rescued. Now that guy you teach you something about mindset and fighting. From what I've read Kyle Lamb 3 day is somewhere in that price range if not a bit more. List goes on and on... Last edited by Clee; 11-27-2012 at 10:54 AM.. |
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I imagine at $900 it still would have been a deal.
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It says $600.00 but the hours are not written so not fair to say its too expensive I think. Could be 6 hour days or 10 hour days. I have an excel sheet of rates for each training school and generally they remain in the $18/hr~$30/hr range.
Good luck to those attending it in the beginning of August at Angeles shooting range! If you guys end up on D-range you are probably F'd w/o cover. Last edited by GM_77; 11-27-2012 at 11:34 AM.. |
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I'll let you know about the Pincus Counter Ambush course. My expectations are mild. Just hope it's kind of worth the money.
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Their drills are bloodless battles, and their battles bloody drills. - Historian Josephus (AD 37-101) on the Roman military |
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I wonder how much the Rob Pincus Counter Ambush program addresses such situations as depicted in the article below:
Attack the ambush: Remembering the Lakewood Four -- According to FBI LEOKA data, 45 police officers were killed in ambush situations in just three years (2009 to 2011)
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Their drills are bloodless battles, and their battles bloody drills. - Historian Josephus (AD 37-101) on the Roman military |
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In principle? Quite a bit. That whole situation is so sad for all involved. Unit policy was to always have at least one officer "standing guard" in situations like that. Sadly, the policy wasn't followed.
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| I don't pretend to be an "authority." I'm just a guy who trains a lot, shoots a lot and has a perspective. Check the ZombieTactics Channel on YouTube for all sorts of gun-related goodness CLICK HERE |
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Their drills are bloodless battles, and their battles bloody drills. - Historian Josephus (AD 37-101) on the Roman military |
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Surprised they are so low, honestly. What does Defoor/Vickers/Howe charge for their first level 2 day pistol courses? Also, what are the class sizes? I limit mine to 12 students. I've seen some of the newer guys in the industry run classes with over 20 students at a time... Quote:
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Craig's ECQC course compares with my ECQT Course... but the CAT Home Study course is conceptual. Honestly, it explains the need for either Craig's or my in-person Close Quarters classes.... -RJP Last edited by Rob Pincus; 12-04-2012 at 4:56 PM.. |
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Last edited by GM_77; 12-04-2012 at 6:30 PM.. |
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Still very different courses... still the same relationship between CAT and ECQC. I don't teach a MUC type course. There are some aspects of MUC that address concerns I talk about int he CAT Book/DVD Lectures in regard to the traditional way that "awareness" and "focus" are addressed in training. Craig's version of moving & turning offline when approached, for example.
For those of you not familiar with this work from Craig, he covered a lot of it in a DVD we did together last year as part of the Personal Defense Network series. CAT is about WHY you should train for being 'off balance' and HOW to go about doing that in a conceptual way. There really hasn't been anything like it offered before. It isn't like any physical course. It helps people learn about actual fights, how information gets processed, how learning is best done for the skills we need to develop and then some ideas on how to determine what gear and skills to collect. The home study course includes my new book, the CAT Lecture DVDs and workbook that helps you learn and apply the lessons and the some other material. After you've completed the work, you can take an online test (90% required for certificate of completion). -RJP Last edited by Rob Pincus; 12-04-2012 at 6:35 PM.. |
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Even though the material within the Pincus Counter Ambush Training (CAT) may only explain the need for such training, I'm looking forward to perusing, watching and digesting the conceptual material (apparently it should arrive within the week in partial shipments due to a fulfillment error). I keep a healthy open-minded, analytical albeit skeptical approach to such material as I do to most such "distinct methodology".
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Their drills are bloodless battles, and their battles bloody drills. - Historian Josephus (AD 37-101) on the Roman military |
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We should all remain a student throughout our lives.
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Their drills are bloodless battles, and their battles bloody drills. - Historian Josephus (AD 37-101) on the Roman military |
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The APH class registration page says a 1-day CFS course as a prerequisite but you said 2 days (see above links). So, which is it? When you say: AND Quote:
Are the CFS methods so exclusive as to need an initiation? Please help me understand in the overall tactical/defensive firearms training field...
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Their drills are bloodless battles, and their battles bloody drills. - Historian Josephus (AD 37-101) on the Roman military |
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Limiting classes has become an issue mostly in highly student-populated areas especially like Southern California. There are no absolutes. The same 2-day Kyle Defoor Advanced Handgun class in SoCal with 20+ students had only 12 in Florida within a few weeks of each other both costing $450. Some who proclaim on limiting the number of students are in effect only capable of limited number of students period. The trend is in more top tier instructors limiting their student count to 15 or less. This is a good thing. Hope this will continue in large urban areas.
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Their drills are bloodless battles, and their battles bloody drills. - Historian Josephus (AD 37-101) on the Roman military |
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First back to the original topic, I posted a pretty thorough explanation of the CAT Home Study course and the package contents here: .
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If I say to a room full of people "Remember when you did the Wind Sprint Drill?" and one guy has never actually done a Wind Sprint Drill, then it takes away from the class time and I have re-teach something. If you show up and use an extended ready position instead of a compressed one, you can't do some of the exercises safely. So, students who go through CFS and use/learn a compressed ready position are prepped for the APH course material. If you show up using an extended one and ask (fairly) "Why should I use a compressed ready?" then I have to teach/explain that, which is redundant for people who have been through CFS.... again, it takes time from the course material. No point in showing up for algebra class if you haven't learned arithmetic. |
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This stuff is NOT rocket science and your verbiage dwells on the over-dramatic and treating your audience as simpletons. We KNOW compressed ready and a lot of your CFS stuff are quite familiar to many through the various CFS, ICE Training, PDN, etc. sources. Don't over-emphasize the uniqueness of your program since you start approaching the point of irrelevance. Remember also that some of your CFS "graduates" may have forgotten the uniqueness of your methods and may need a quick refresher at the start of the APH class.
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Their drills are bloodless battles, and their battles bloody drills. - Historian Josephus (AD 37-101) on the Roman military |
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All three of them are Tier 1 Special Operations veterans which means they have been vetted and received the finest training money can buy, proven world-class shooters, who have in fact been in combat. You were a LEO for a very short time, admin at the Valhalla Training Center, and then started your own company (Hiring a Ranger & SEAL to stand next to you for your original company instructor photos), then turned yourself into a Youtube star w/ videos you do yourself. Last I heard you don't even carry a gun in your classes and demo nothing. Back in the day you did demo's into the berm. Should you're name be mentioned in the same breath as a Vickers, Lamb, Defoor, McPhee, Howe, Pannone, McNamara, Harrington, etc? Quote:
Nice try salesman.....You are slick, I will give you that. IMO: Most of the time when an instructor states such a low student to instructor ratio as a sales pitch it's ONLY because that's all they could get to sign-up.. When they do it goes out the windown. Try again.
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Paul A. Hotaling Alias Training & Security Services, LLC Paul@aliastraining.com 757-985-9586 www.aliastraining.com |
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I am unaware of any special "rate card" for instructors based upon their past acts of derring-do or military qualifications. Did I not get the memo or something? Last time I checked, its was pretty much a free-market thing ... whatever the market will bear. If you can get the rate, get it. Or perhaps an alternate business plan calls for a different student-to-instructor ratio and charges accordingly. That's a business decision, not an indicator of anyone's "awesomeness".
The notion of a "Tier One" background being a singular qualifier for fitness to teach strikes me odd, especially if the subject is self-defense in non-military circumstances. Of course, it's alternately suggested that only champion competition shooters can lay claim to that mantle. Check some of the competition forums and see how they make fun of what they call "Tactical Timmies" ... apparently being a genuine war hero means nothing as long you can shoot paper targets like a pro? Seems like a lot of adolescent posturing to me, and neither position seems to hold much logical weight. I can't think of a single area of human endeavor - athletic or otherwise - where the very best performers usually make the very best teachers or coaches. Often the best teachers and coaches turn out to be so-so performers or have little in the way of awesome credentials ... aside from the fact that they can bring out the best in their students. Béla Károlyi was a hammer-thrower and a boxer, and failed miserably at meeting even minimal low-level, standards at gymnastics ... I guess he wasn't "Tier One" enough to coach Nadia Comăneci, Mary Lou Retton, Betty Okino, Teodora Ungureanu, Kim Zmeskal, Kristie Phillips, Dominique Moceanu, and Kerri Strug, huh? My kid's soccer trainer was a pro player of little renown ... pretty good trainer. Their coach is just an adult enthusiast ... and a much better teacher. I guess all those district cup wins are meaningless, not enough "Tier One" instruction. Bobby Jackson used to be a neighbor of mine. Awesome skills, helluva decent guy ... could not coach basketball to save his life, from what I've witnessed personally. Martina Navratilova's tennis coach never won anything of note as a player, from what I am told ... and that's far more common story in most sports than the opposite. What is so special and unique about firearms training that only awesome death dealers need apply? Why is it different than anything and everything else? There are heroes on every police force (my nephew gave his all, thanks) and great shooters on every range. My training checkbook gets opened for educational value, not the chance to "stand in the presence of awesome". I have no doubt that the likes of Vickers and others are excellent instructors, as they've gained reputations as instructors. Is there anything so unique about what they teach that their methods are completely unknown to anyone else ... or impossible to be taught except by those with Tier One experience? Believe or not, they have their detractors as well ... full of venom and spite, for reasons every bit as oblique and unfathomable. I can't say I place much faith in content-less, snarky attempts at character assassination ... regardless of source or target.
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| I don't pretend to be an "authority." I'm just a guy who trains a lot, shoots a lot and has a perspective. Check the ZombieTactics Channel on YouTube for all sorts of gun-related goodness CLICK HERE Last edited by ZombieTactics; 12-17-2012 at 5:24 PM.. |
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