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  #1  
Old 09-24-2012, 2:16 PM
johncmng johncmng is offline
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Default Moly coated or non Moly coated bullits

Is the a difference in performance? Midway's website says yes. But are there any Calgunner here use it?
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  #2  
Old 09-24-2012, 3:40 PM
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in what caliber

I use bear creek 230gn FN molly and love them

personally not as big of a fan in rifle calibers
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  #3  
Old 09-24-2012, 4:32 PM
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For pistol there are some benefits IF you are talking about moly coated lead bullets versus wax lubed lead bullets. If you are talking about jacketed pistol or rifle bullets moly is more hassle than help in my opinion.
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Old 09-24-2012, 6:37 PM
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In rifles moly coated bullets give you an extra 20fps at best, with no real improvement in accuracy, it's really not worth the trouble. On top of that, if you switch to moly coated bullets, you can only use moly coated bullets or else your accuracy would suffer greatly. My advice is just stick with standard coated bullets.
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  #5  
Old 11-26-2012, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by rusty815 View Post
In rifles moly coated bullets give you an extra 20fps at best, with no real improvement in accuracy, it's really not worth the trouble. On top of that, if you switch to moly coated bullets, you can only use moly coated bullets or else your accuracy would suffer greatly. My advice is just stick with standard coated bullets.
If you have a rifle that copper fouls regularly, it's worth it...
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Old 11-26-2012, 1:16 PM
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Originally Posted by rusty815 View Post
.... On top of that, if you switch to moly coated bullets, you can only use moly coated bullets or else your accuracy would suffer greatly......
Reason being....what? Once moly coated bullets are run through your barrel, you can't go back to lead, fmj or plated? I'd like to know about this just for future reference.......

tia
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  #7  
Old 11-26-2012, 1:48 PM
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Reason being....what? Once moly coated bullets are run through your barrel, you can't go back to lead, fmj or plated? I'd like to know about this just for future reference.......

tia
It's not that you "can't", its just that the precision of your rifle might suffer downrange. For handguns, I'm not sure it would be enough to matter but for rifles, it might be a problem.

If you're talking about doing it for a deer rifle that copper fouls, that's one thing but if you're talking about doing it for a bench-rest gun, you might want to reconsider. On a C&R gun with iron sights, I don't think you'd even notice the difference (unless you're shooting a K31, or something else Swiss ). One thing to remember is that muzzle velocity will actually decrease, because you have less friction on the bearing surfaces. So, if you want to transition from copper jacket to moly coated, you will have to add powder to your load data to compensate.
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  #8  
Old 11-26-2012, 2:34 PM
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I subscribe to some OCD reloading habits for rifle, but Moly coating is not one of them.

Do you believe in Voodoo?
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Old 11-26-2012, 4:58 PM
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Moly bullets are way cheaper, so more rounds shot per $$. However in my load they are filthy, 125 TC on top of 4 grains of titegroup in my 9mm Glocks. I don't see any difference in accuracy between Bear Creek moly and Montana Gold
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Old 11-26-2012, 5:48 PM
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Originally Posted by rusty815 View Post
In rifles moly coated bullets give you an extra 20fps at best, with no real improvement in accuracy, it's really not worth the trouble. On top of that, if you switch to moly coated bullets, you can only use moly coated bullets or else your accuracy would suffer greatly. My advice is just stick with standard coated bullets.
Interesting... so I would take one of my current loads and just switch the bullet out for a moly one and I will get 20fps higher??
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  #11  
Old 11-26-2012, 7:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Flyin Brian View Post
Interesting... so I would take one of my current loads and just switch the bullet out for a moly one and I will get 20fps higher??
It would actually be slower.

Moly is a lubricant. Therefore, less friction means less resistance, which means less pressure, which leads to lower velocities. You would have to bump up your powder charge to see more velocity. One of the reasons for using Moly coating on rifle bullets is that chasing higher velocity is "safer" using a lubricated bullet. Moreover, the Moly will lay down a "treatment" similar to how you season a cast iron skillet, which is why Rusty states that you can only use Moly bullets. That is only half true, Moly seasoning in your bore may make it dangerous to shoot a lot of Moly bullets and then naked bullets as the Moly does build up in the bore (rates of buildup may vary). The Moly seasoning is also a ***** to clean out once it is in there.

For me, Moly coating on rifle bullets is Voodoo. I do not buy it.

That being said, I do shoot Moly coated lead in my handguns with VV N320.
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Last edited by RugerNo1; 11-26-2012 at 7:29 PM..
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  #12  
Old 11-26-2012, 9:04 PM
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Originally Posted by RugerNo1 View Post
It would actually be slower.

Moly is a lubricant. Therefore, less friction means less resistance, which means less pressure, which leads to lower velocities. You would have to bump up your powder charge to see more velocity. One of the reasons for using Moly coating on rifle bullets is that chasing higher velocity is "safer" using a lubricated bullet. Moreover, the Moly will lay down a "treatment" similar to how you season a cast iron skillet, which is why Rusty states that you can only use Moly bullets. That is only half true, Moly seasoning in your bore may make it dangerous to shoot a lot of Moly bullets and then naked bullets as the Moly does build up in the bore (rates of buildup may vary). The Moly seasoning is also a ***** to clean out once it is in there.

For me, Moly coating on rifle bullets is Voodoo. I do not buy it.

That being said, I do shoot Moly coated lead in my handguns with VV N320.

I'm admittedly new to reloading so forgive me if I'm having a hard time grasping that concept. One would think that lubrication would increase the velocity because of less friction. Less lubrication would probably increase pressure but only because the bullet is already being slowed down by friction. The only thing this noob can think that might have the effect you describe is with a powder that needs certain pressures to burn faster.

Not arguing, just trying to understand.
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  #13  
Old 11-26-2012, 10:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RugerNo1 View Post
It would actually be slower.

Moly is a lubricant. Therefore, less friction means less resistance, which means less pressure, which leads to lower velocities. You would have to bump up your powder charge to see more velocity. One of the reasons for using Moly coating on rifle bullets is that chasing higher velocity is "safer" using a lubricated bullet. Moreover, the Moly will lay down a "treatment" similar to how you season a cast iron skillet, which is why Rusty states that you can only use Moly bullets. That is only half true, Moly seasoning in your bore may make it dangerous to shoot a lot of Moly bullets and then naked bullets as the Moly does build up in the bore (rates of buildup may vary). The Moly seasoning is also a ***** to clean out once it is in there.

For me, Moly coating on rifle bullets is Voodoo. I do not buy it.

That being said, I do shoot Moly coated lead in my handguns with VV N320.
Thanks, but I was hoping Rusty would elaborate on his claim that I will only get an increase of 20 FPS. I've only been experimenting with Moly bullets in rifle loads for a few months now, but so far I have seen an increase from 2850 to 3050FPS and still no signs of pressure, I finally gave up increasing my charge any further. So my results are completely different than what Rusty is claiming, only a 20FPS increase sounds a little odd to me.

I'm testing with new 7.62X53r Lapua cases, Lapua Scenar 155gr SJ HPBT bullets and H4895 @ 51 grains which is 1.5gr over the max load for a 150gr naked bullet.
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  #14  
Old 11-27-2012, 9:44 AM
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Originally Posted by call-in View Post
I'm admittedly new to reloading so forgive me if I'm having a hard time grasping that concept. One would think that lubrication would increase the velocity because of less friction. Less lubrication would probably increase pressure but only because the bullet is already being slowed down by friction. The only thing this noob can think that might have the effect you describe is with a powder that needs certain pressures to burn faster.

Not arguing, just trying to understand.
Don't worry, man. No one thinks you're "arguing". It's a complicated, physical concept. Allow me to try to explain a little more succinctly:

A normal, copper jacketed bullet contacts the rifling, and the friction that is caused by the mating of the projectile and the barrel causes a certain pressure to be reached in the chamber. The pressure is enough to overcome the friction, and forces the projectile out of the barrel. When moly is added, the friction is lowered, thus requiring less pressure to be required to force the same projectile out of the same pressure vessel (barrel/chamber). So, by reducing friction, you are also reducing chamber pressure and therefore, you are reducing muzzle velocity.

Make sense?

Last edited by CEDaytonaRydr; 11-27-2012 at 12:08 PM..
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  #15  
Old 11-27-2012, 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by CEDaytonaRydr View Post
Don't worry, man. No one thinks you're "arguing". It's a complicated, physical concept. Allow me to try to explain a little more succinctly:

A normal, copper jacketed bullet contacts the rifling, and the friction that is caused by the mating of the projectile and the barrel causes a certain pressure to be reached in the chamber. The pressure is enough to overcome the friction, and forces the projectile out of the barrel. When moly is added, the friction is lowered, thus requiring less pressure to be required to force the same projectile out of the same pressure vessel (barrel/chamber). So, by reducing friction, you are also reducing chamber pressure and therefore, you are reducing muzzle velocity.

Make sense?
I think I get the gist of what you are trying to say but I guess my confusion is between causality and effect.

The way I see it, friction does not affect pressure directly, as far as I understand it, given a set amount of charge, pressure would be directly affected by volume. With friction being a variable, a bullet that has less friction (resistance) would move faster (velocity) and create more volume for the expanding gases for the given amount of time and therefore less pressure, a bullet with more friction would be slower because of the resistance (to move) thereby not creating as much space for the expanding gases at same amount of time hence the increase in pressure.

So although I understand that more friction would produce more pressure and vice-versa, my understanding is the increased pressure is caused by the slower (velocity) bullet. If, however, the charge is the variable and the friction is the constant then I understand how velocity would be directly proportionate to pressure.
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Black color scheme makes the bullets more deadly.
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  #16  
Old 11-27-2012, 1:42 PM
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Originally Posted by call-in View Post
I think I get the gist of what you are trying to say but I guess my confusion is between causality and effect.

The way I see it, friction does not affect pressure directly, as far as I understand it, given a set amount of charge, pressure would be directly affected by volume. With friction being a variable, a bullet that has less friction (resistance) would move faster (velocity) and create more volume for the expanding gases for the given amount of time and therefore less pressure, a bullet with more friction would be slower because of the resistance (to move) thereby not creating as much space for the expanding gases at same amount of time hence the increase in pressure.

So although I understand that more friction would produce more pressure and vice-versa, my understanding is the increased pressure is caused by the slower (velocity) bullet. If, however, the charge is the variable and the friction is the constant then I understand how velocity would be directly proportionate to pressure.
You are correct, friction does not directly affect pressure directly. And, you have answered your own question. With less friction, the bullet will move down the barrel with more ease and the pressure chamber created by the case and the bullet will grow, thus lowering pressure because volume does directly affect pressure. The greater volume changes the pressure curve of the reaction and, in this case, the velocity is reduced due to lowered pressure.

Let me try to explain it in a different way. It takes more effort to force an oversize ball into a tube and more force to knock it out. However, that same ball, when finally dislodged with a rapid stike from something like a hammer will shoot out because the force is imparted on the ball almost immediately. The kinetic energy stored in the hammer transfers to the stuck ball and creates a more sudden movement and all enery is expended in a short time frame.

Say you lubricated that same ball and forced it back into the tube. If the same amount of force were imparted on the ball, the ball would still shoot out of the tube, but with less velocity becuase there is less stored energy in the ball being released at once because the ball will move with the hammer slightly during the reaction which will turn into a push rather than a strike. The energy is transferred over a longer period.

However, I was a History major, not a Physics major, so take what you may from it...
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Old 11-27-2012, 1:49 PM
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Default Moly?

The only experience I have had with Moly bullets is with the Hornady Moly bullets for my AR15. I thought they would be worth a try instead of the normal VMAX bullets that I normally use. Slight shift in trajectory, but nothing to bad, but after being out on the prarie all day shooting your hands are covered in the moly. I would never buy these again.
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  #18  
Old 11-27-2012, 2:18 PM
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Originally Posted by call-in View Post
I think I get the gist of what you are trying to say but I guess my confusion is between causality and effect. The way I see it, friction does not affect pressure directly, as far as I understand it, given a set amount of charge, pressure would be directly affected by volume.

The moly lubricant allows the volume of the pressure vessel to increase at a more rapid rate than with a bare copper projectile, therefore reducing pressure; that's the correlation that friction has with volume.

Quote:
With friction being a variable, a bullet that has less friction (resistance) would move faster (velocity) and create more volume for the expanding gases for the given amount of time...
The extra volume created by the projectile with less resistance is the problem; that's what's taking away the velocity. The friction of a copper projectile requires more energy to force it out of the barrel, so it allows the pressure to build up behind it.


Quote:
...and therefore less pressure, a bullet with more friction would be slower because of the resistance (to move) thereby not creating as much space for the expanding gases at same amount of time hence the increase in pressure.
This is where you've taken a wrong turn. The bullet with more friction will be faster because of the fact that the increase in friction has caused an increase in pressure inside the chamber.


Quote:
So although I understand that more friction would produce more pressure and vice-versa, my understanding is the increased pressure is caused by the slower (velocity) bullet.
The bare copper bullet is not "slower", it just doesn't escape the barrel as easily as the moly coated bullet. The moly coated bullet requires less energy to escape the barrel, and as a result, comes out at a lower velocity.


Quote:
If, however, the charge is the variable and the friction is the constant then I understand how velocity would be directly proportionate to pressure.
In this scenario, the load data would have to be constant (powder charge, primer, brass, projectile, all the same).


If you still don't believe me, pick up your reloading manual, and try to explain to me why a 125gr .308 Win load uses more of the same brand of powder than a 168gr load does? Same reason; the increase in bearing surface (and projectile weight, in this case) causes in increase in pressure which means you use less powder for the heavier bullet.

...and if you still don't believe me, here's what Midway's website says:

http://www.midwayusa.com/content/legacy/moly_faq.htm
Quote:
Moly coating actually decreases pressure and muzzle velocity because of reduced friction between the bullet and bore.

Last edited by CEDaytonaRydr; 11-28-2012 at 11:49 AM..
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  #19  
Old 11-27-2012, 8:58 PM
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Originally Posted by RugerNo1 View Post
The greater volume changes the pressure curve of the reaction and, in this case, the velocity is reduced due to lowered pressure.
I think these two words here explains it for me. My problem was I was being to linear in my logic, too "clinical" if you will. I minored in physics but dropped out to come to this great country.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CEDaytonaRydr View Post
If you still don't believe me, pick up your reloading manual, and try to explain to me why a 125gr .308 Win load uses more of the same brand of powder than a 168gr load does? Same reason; the increase in bearing surface (and projectile weight, in this case) causes in increase in pressure which means you use less powder for the heavier bullet.
My apologies if I sounded like I didn't believe you, that is not the case, I should have worded my first post more carefully, I should have stated that I understand that is what the literature say both for moly and for the bearing surface of various mass of bullets, not only understand but believe in, I should've mentioned I wanted to understand why. I have always found it odd that the smaller bullet required less powder and I thought it was only to cycle the action (I've only loaded for pistol so far). Now I know. lol
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Black color scheme makes the bullets more deadly.
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Old 11-28-2012, 4:51 AM
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Molybdenum Disulfide is considered passe these days with hexagonal boron nitride (HBN) being the new rage. Unlike moly, HBN isn't messy and doesn't build up in the chamber throat requiring special cleaning techniques. Unlike moly, HBN does not attract moisture to rust bores, and is non toxic, in fact it is used in food processing lubes and is an ingredient in cosmetics. HBN can be applied to bullets in the same way as Molybdenum Disulfide, by tumbling in a vibratory tumbler, or sent out for coating. Handgun bullets usually don't require moly or HBN coating due to low velocities, but coating jacketed bullets isn't going to hurt anything and may reduce fouling. If you want to try coated lead handgun bullets check this out, they also offer coating for cast bullets: http://www.bayoubullets.net/products.html

Here is a kit offered by David Tubb for rifle bullets that will coat your bullets with a vibratory tumbler and minimum fuss, they offer bullet coating (and do the moly coating for Sierra, CCI, Blount, Speer) but this kit is cheaper to do it yourself, and in smaller batches. I ordered a couple of kits myself, and will retire the moly coating equipment:

http://www.davidtubb.com/boron-nitride-coating-bullets

This is a link to other accuracy reloading products offered by Tubb:

http://www.davidtubb.com/accuracy-reloading

There is a company offering barrel cleaning and conditioning products, and bullet coating that uses a water based HBN solution that is applied in a sonic cleaner. They claim that their bore conditioner will remove fouling and work into the barrel pores treating the barrel with HBN reducing fouling and friction. It is a good practice to never shoot a dry bore, and I have been using various bore lubes from synthetic lubes to colloidal graphite and moly paste for years, this Rydol product looks promising. Using a bore lube on a handgun would most likely be beneficial, especially one containing HBN. I'll try it when I work up the courage to retest my .480 Rugers or the several .44 Magnums with new loads:

http://rydol.com/products/firearms/index.htm

The ultrasonic, they call it polysonic, product seems to be innovative, but i don't like dealing with wet processes. They also offer bullet coating service, so a small batch could be tried before making a larger purchase:

http://rydol.com/products/polysonic/index.htm

Last edited by Wrangler John; 11-28-2012 at 5:32 AM..
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Old 11-28-2012, 7:43 AM
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Is the a difference in performance? Midway's website says yes. But are there any Calgunner here use it?
naked bullets go faster and longer . . .

no prep and worry needed - just load and shoot!
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Old 11-28-2012, 7:50 AM
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The advantage of moly or hbn is that you can run more powder.
So, you get lower pressure and velocity with the same load, but when you burn more powder, you come back up to the same pressure, but you can get slightly more velocity due to the extra powder.

We are talking about very small gains here though, maybe 10-20fps net gain.
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Old 11-28-2012, 11:28 AM
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Geez, I completely forgot I posted in this thread, otherwise I would have come back to elaborate on my post, thankfully other CGN members stepped in.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyin Brian View Post
Thanks, but I was hoping Rusty would elaborate on his claim that I will only get an increase of 20 FPS. I've only been experimenting with Moly bullets in rifle loads for a few months now, but so far I have seen an increase from 2850 to 3050FPS and still no signs of pressure, I finally gave up increasing my charge any further. So my results are completely different than what Rusty is claiming, only a 20FPS increase sounds a little odd to me.

I'm testing with new 7.62X53r Lapua cases, Lapua Scenar 155gr SJ HPBT bullets and H4895 @ 51 grains which is 1.5gr over the max load for a 150gr naked bullet.
That velocity increase is likely due to something else and not the Moly, you can do a search and come up with many results from reputable sources saying the increase is minimal. In most cases, using the same load you will see a decrease of about 20fps in velocity from a naked bullet, and that is about how much of an increase in velocity you will get from the moly coated bullet when the max load is found.

I don't have a problem with people moly coating bullets, I would probably moly coat too if it wasn't for the fouling problem with moly and that it is a nightmare to clean out. Maybe I should take a look at HBN, but I'm too lazy to add extra steps to my reloading process.
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Old 11-29-2012, 6:00 AM
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The main benefit of moly or HBN coated bullets is reduced fouling and throat erosion. Norma did a comparison of moly coated versus non-coated bullets and found the moly coated bullets significantly reduced throat erosion. Any effect on velocity is minimal and not a significant factor. HBN coating has the same or better effect on throat erosion.

I should point out that David Tubb uses Gary Schneider polygonal barrels in his rifles. Polygonal barrels are difficult to lap, so I am told he uses the Final Polish system to smooth the throat and bore. Once seasoned, these barrels foul very minimally wherein Tubb mentioned shooting 600 rounds before cleaning in an article I read several years ago. Tubb shoots phenomenal groups at 1000 yards which is why he mentions first-shot HBN coated bullets falling into the same group as subsequent shots as the deciding factor.

I have found the same to be true of polygonal barrels, these barrels are inherently accurate, and especially immune to copper fouling, which is maximized by using coated bullets. When shooting several hundred shots a day at varmints the ability to clean a rifle with a few wet patches is a necessity. Reducing throat erosion and barrel wear extends barrel life and is the other major factor.

In semi-automatic fire, coated bullets reduce mechanical friction in the barrel, which in turn lowers barrel heat, providing a reduction in barrel wear. HBN coated bullets will exceed moly in this regard, while not building up in the throat or gas system. Using coated bullets along with a powder containing anti-copper fouling ingredients, such as Ramshot TAC, Hodgdon CFE 223, and new lots of Alliant Reloader 15, will benefit the shooter most.
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